Has Noah's Ark really been discovered?

[justified]

Answer me this then; Why do well known Egyptologists like Petrie and Breasted differ by more than 1000 years on the date of the pyramids, and by 700 years on the Hyksos period. Likewise, Petrie dates King Menes, the first hitorical King of Egypt, at about 5500 BC, while Breasted dates the very same Pharoh at 3400 BC.

First of all, the term PharAoh is terribly anachronistic and should not be used until the reign of Kamose or so; basically, it's wrong until c. 1580 B.C.

Petrie, you must recall, was basically the pioneer. He was brilliant, but there was a lot he couldn't get. For example, the early dynastic colossoi of Min that were turning up. He would excavate, and write in his journal, "the god's right hand is flat against his side, his left hand is in the normal position of Min, and there is a hole in the statue at about the same place as the left hand." Now, forgive the explicit nature of this example, but Petrie never caught onto the fact that these statues were of Min holding his phallus, though to any one of us that would have been obvious.

We do learn more as time went on, but it's slightly unfair to characterize an entire discipline by its earliest formulations. Breasted's was accepted for a while, but the discovery of the scorpion tablet and such has influenced us a great deal. We can't be exactly sure the precise date of a Pyramid, but we know within a hundred years or so (and that's being generous). Egyptian chronology in fact forms the basis (in terms of synchronisms) of the chronology of the entire Ancient Near East because they kept such good records of their reigns.

So that you know, in case if you didn't, Narmer/Menes is not the first historical king of Egypt. There were at least five before him, of which only the names are known. The date of the unification under Narmer, however, has a good middle date at 3080. Basically, we deal with dates in terms of astronomically verifiable facts, which sets us way ahead of Petrie's (frankly) guesses. However, it's still not perfect since we don't know exactly what place in Egypt those astronomical observations were made: Heliopolis and Elephantine are quite different on that face. The chronologies differ now in terms of a few decades from the 'highest' to the 'lowest,' rather than hundreds of years as in the early history of the discipline.

Oh, and on Hyksos, I should not fail to mention that that period is extremely difficult to do chronologically. I recently spent some time with it, and the dating of thousands of scarabs is simply insane. But thanks to the Turin Canon and Manetho's logs, we know pretty darn closely the period we're talking about. What we don't know is what order the Semitic kings of the of D14 and D15 periods were -- and which ones reigned simultaneously.

 

[justified]

Would it be possible for you to supply some evidence for the Sumerian inspiration? Thanks in advance.

The story I know about is, that Imhotep got the funny idea of placing mastabas on top of each other - but of course, that may be a later invention to cover up for the foreign influence

Well, the textbook reason is simply that the first pyramids were stepped. I also happen to subscribe to a minority opinion that there was early communication with Mesopotamia along the Gulf routes. But I wouldn't be too upset if I were proven wrong on that

 

[ez3729]

I watched that film before. I do believe the discovery but I know there are some non-believers who do not believe it. They say if the discovery is so significant, why not made it to the headlines, news, and things like that. They also doubt what is presented in the film.

eh7, how, where and when did you get to watch that film? Im guessing the film wasnt in english, is that right? Can you let us know details of what you saw in the film? Did you see the frozen staircase or the wall the pastor avoided? Are the non believers you are talking about non christian or christians who think the documentary is fake?

eh7 or dragon, do you know any of the people who put this film together? Did you get to talk to any of the them? Did they present the gospel?

 

[DailyBlessings]

This video- Is it the same Yuen who a few years back claimed he had found the ark a few years back but a claimed a "mysterious force" caused his camera to malfunction? If so, that makes the claim suspect right off the bat.

 

[FreezBee]

Well, the textbook reason is simply that the first pyramids were stepped. I also happen to subscribe to a minority opinion that there was early communication with Mesopotamia along the Gulf routes. But I wouldn't be too upset if I were proven wrong on that

Ok and thanks! That the first pyramids were stepped only proves that they were stepped, not why they were stepped, I would think?

I thought that the ziggurats were temples - not memorials´- and I would think that if there was any Sumerian inspiration, it would covers as well design and function, but of course I may be wrong.

(@mod: sorry if this is thread hijacking)


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[Breetai]

Thanks justified.

My Egyptology is limited to a single university course and a few books that I've read.

So, you are saying that Narmer's/Menes' (I like Menes much better, only because it sounds cool) unification was beteen 3000-3200 BC, and that those dates that I offered actually allow more space than is needed?


I'm a little curious about you as well, and what authority you have to tell us what you do. You sound like you know quite a bit about the subject. Do you have a degree in Egytology? What type of degree, if any (BA, PhD, etc.)? How long have you worked in this field? Do you have any published works? How much time have you spend in Egypt? Are you there now? Etc.

 

[justified]

Ok and thanks! That the first pyramids were stepped only proves that they were stepped, not why they were stepped, I would think?

I thought that the ziggurats were temples - not memorials´- and I would think that if there was any Sumerian inspiration, it would covers as well design and function, but of course I may be wrong.

You're absolutely right: there's a major difference between the uses of the two buildings. And considering you also have an independent growth of large stepped buildings in the Americas, there's very good reason to think that it's just innate within humans to build big things.

Ziggurats were priest-oriented, probably originally for forecasting the weather. Pyramids were mortuary establishments. And the first pyramid was built in pieces and expanded, not necessarily all at once. Frankly, there's not a lot on my side But if you're really curious, I'll use the library resources of where I am and dig up a few more theories. The point originally, of course, is that we know where and when they were, and that it's relatively contemporaneous with the development of Ziggurats in Mesopotamia.

 

[justified]

My Egyptology is limited to a single university course and a few books that I've read.

So, you are saying that Narmer's/Menes' (I like Menes much better, only because it sounds cool) unification was beteen 3000-3200 BC, and that those dates that I offered actually allow more space than is needed?


I'm a little curious about you as well, and what authority you have to tell us what you do. You sound like you know quite a bit about the subject. Do you have a degree in Egytology? What type of degree, if any (BA, PhD, etc.)? How long have you worked in this field? Do you have any published works? How much time have you spend in Egypt? Are you there now? Etc.

3400 is really pushing it for Narmer. That's very early according to almost every chronology out there now.

As far as my credentials, just check out what I say if you're worried about it. There are a lot of reasons for why I shouldn't devulge them. Besides, no matter what I may have in terms of degrees, we're all students forever. So, in that sense, let me just say that I'm studying at a very nice school in the UK.

 

[Dragons87]

eh7 or dragon, do you know any of the people who put this film together? Did you get to talk to any of the them? Did they present the gospel?

Nope, don't know these guys personally. But the organisation, is the first Christian broadcast group in Hong Kong. They make all sorts of television programmes and movies. Their movies are based on true stories, and are really touching. As far as I'm concerned, they aren't doing anything cultish or stuff.

 

[ez3729]

This video- Is it the same Yuen who a few years back claimed he had found the ark a few years back but a claimed a "mysterious force" caused his camera to malfunction? If so, that makes the claim suspect right off the bat.

hello Daily Blessings, Are you familiar with Yuen? What more do you know about him. I think in the weblink and also dragon said their camera malfunctioned because of something mysterious but i didnt think that that statement was that weird. why do think so?

 

[Breetai]

[/font]
3400 is really pushing it for Narmer. That's very early according to almost every chronology out there now.

As far as my credentials, just check out what I say if you're worried about it. There are a lot of reasons for why I shouldn't devulge them. Besides, no matter what I may have in terms of degrees, we're all students forever. So, in that sense, let me just say that I'm studying at a very nice school in the UK.

I'm not worried about your credentials. You've shown that your knowledge on this subject is great, especially when complaired to the rest of us here (as far as I can tell). I'm more curious than anything. As to where you have or are studying, that doesn't matter so much (though I'm still curious!).

 

[FreezBee]

You're absolutely right: there's a major difference between the uses of the two buildings. And considering you also have an independent growth of large stepped buildings in the Americas, there's very good reason to think that it's just innate within humans to build big things.

Yes, the American "stepped buildings" are an important factor. There are claims that they must have been inspired by the Egyptian pyramids, and was actually trying to see, if that was your opinion

Why should people not be able to get the same idea in different places? Some people appear to be of the opinion that any idea must have one and one only originator, but that's imho not necessarily the case.

Ziggurats were priest-oriented, probably originally for forecasting the weather. Pyramids were mortuary establishments. And the first pyramid was built in pieces and expanded, not necessarily all at once. Frankly, there's not a lot on my side But if you're really curious, I'll use the library resources of where I am and dig up a few more theories. The point originally, of course, is that we know where and when they were, and that it's relatively contemporaneous with the development of Ziggurats in Mesopotamia.

I'm REALLY curious

Yes, they are contemporaneous - but imho the important factor is that they simply had different functions. Also, pyramids went out of fashin in Egypt in early Middle Kingdom, if I remember correctly (please correct me, if I'm wrong), while ziggurats remained in fashion in the Mesopotamic area to at least the 6th cty bce.

You mentioned that the pyramid had some relation to Egyptian religion, I believe, could you expand on that? I know that the east bank of the Nile was the land of the living, and the west bank was the land of the dead. so I guees the pyramids were meant as a manifestation of a new life rising among the dead, but I'm not too sure.


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[bertie]

,CAN WE GET BACK TO THE ARK?
I am wondering if there is any real proof offered by this video?
ie-is ther any clear footage that could indicate the size of structure?outer shape ?or other indications that it is a boat atall?
how about exact co ordiates?did they have a gps reading ?
the reason i ask is that we have been photographing via satelite since sputnik
cant we google up the satelite shots over several decades and at least see if it has been more visible in past years ?or even other pieces may be more visible if the general area was known?????there are infra red photos that they take from satelite as well;mybe temp diffs between the snows and the hull space.?

 

[justified]

am wondering if there is any real proof offered by this video?
ie-is ther any clear footage that could indicate the size of structure?outer shape ?or other indications that it is a boat atall?

How does outer-shape matter? I can show you a host of chiseled flint "arrowheads" that came about by rocks bashing together in a stream. Until very recently when its nose fell off, New Hamsphire in the states had a "man in the mountain" which was, frankly, uncannily like a man. People see the Madonna everywhere they go these days.

Outer shape doesn't matter. A sample of wood dated to the deluvian period is proof. Videos are easily photoshopped. Like that picture we saw above.

Now of course, Satellite shots might be enough to get some idea of what's down there. And there's no reason for the government not to have told us if the ark were there.

 

[FreezBee]

Another link is here: http://www.media.org.hk/noahsark/asp/team_eng.asp

There is another interesting page at this site:

http://www.media.org.hk/noahsark/asp/apply1_eng.asp#title2

Near the bottom of the page yoy'll find a row of four pictures, tha last of which is this:




In the past¡Athe Ark was located in the peak of Mount AraratIn 1842, the volcano eruption and earthquake caused the Ark broke into several pieces.And slide down the mountainThe largest piece slide down at the height of 4,200 meters and buried under snow.

So the ark is supposed to have worked as a lid on top of volcanic Mt. Ararat, and in 1842 an eruption broke the ark into pieces, of which the largest slide down 4,200 meters and was buried under snow.

Interesting stuff, and if the ark is for real, not impossible maybe, but how is this known for sure and not just hypotheses?

Also there is this picture on the page:

This should be a woodden structure that looks like a crossbeam. Can anybody else see anything? I have little knowledge about ships, I have to admit.

Well, as said, it is all interesting, but let's see, what it all ends up with


- FreezBee

 

[bertie]

The outer shape is definately going to give us an indication whats down there to some extent.A regular decipherable corner or two would lend at least a little more wieght to the vapourous evidence presented.
Asuming it is a structure thats hollow,ground radar or even a shadowy outline would go a long way towards indicating if it is a boat,or even remotely shaped like one.
You are absolutely right about the samples,and this point brings us to the question of where are they?or are there any?If not,why not?
The lack of concrete evidence offered makes me dubious at best....
The picture could be anything(crossbeam?)
It sure would be nice to get a copy of that movie .if someone had a copy out there would it be legal to get them to put a few stills on a post for us?
I wonder did they even lower a flashlight down there or anything ?If that is the best evidence in the still photo,there is none at all really/

 

[ez3729]

bertie,
you might want to make a post or e-mail dragon or eh7. They claim to have seen the Chinese documentary. Dragon had detailed description in some of his posts. eh7 has a link to a site that has the documentary that is downloadable. Unfortunately i was not able to download the film from the site yet because it is in chinese and takes around 13 hours to download i think. Another person who might have more info on the documentary is Davy Liu, the art director of the film. I think he was/is an illustrator at disney and owns an art gallery in southern california. i havent tried to contact him yet ,but you might want to try. davyliu.com

 

[justified]

nother person who might have more info on the documentary is Davy Liu, the art director of the film. I think he was/is an illustrator at disney and owns an art gallery in southern california. i havent tried to contact him yet ,but you might want to try. davyliu.com

An illustrator at disney is the art director of the film...;what have I been sayin, guys! PHOTOSHOP!

 

[FreezBee]

I wonder did they even lower a flashlight down there or anything ?If that is the best evidence in the still photo,there is none at all really/

Quite true. I wonder how they can be so sure about the ark having been split into pieces by the eruption, and then some of the pieces having slided down the mountain and been covered with snow. Isn't that inventing a theory to explain why nothing is actually found? I don't know enough about geology to say, if the story makes much sense, does anybody else?

An illustrator at disney is the art director of the film...;what have I been sayin, guys! PHOTOSHOP!

though I wouldn't discredit a Disney employée as a qualified art director - the film probably contains some explanatory sequences that are not "real world" images. Wheter the picture of the "crossbeam" has been tampered with is impossible to say - after all, it doesn't really show us much.

I suspect your estimation of the seriousness of the film will be hightened by this picture:

It's "A strange structure with human-like face and bull-like horns". But who made it? And why?


- FreezBee

 

[DailyBlessings]

Quite true. I wonder how they can be so sure about the ark having been split into pieces by the eruption, and then some of the pieces having slided down the mountain and been covered with snow. Isn't that inventing a theory to explain why nothing is actually found? I don't know enough about geology to say, if the story makes much sense, does anybody else?

Well, I don't know much about creationist geology, but by a real geologist's perspective it doesn't make any sense. The likelihood of an eruption large enough to break the boat apart and disperse it as shown, but not in fact completely destroy it, makes no sense to me. Ararat is a stratovolcano, and if it was still active historically (well, actually it probably is) you wouldn't have any evidence left of your boat. Even if there was no lava, there would almost certainly be mulititudes of ash, pyroclastic flows, lahars... In short, the ark, if it is there is some visible form, would have had to have been deposited after Ararat's last eruption, because otherwise it would most certainly be buried under tens or hundreds of feet of basalt and rhyolite and tuff.

I suspect your estimation of the seriousness of the film will be hightened by this picture:

It's "A strange structure with human-like face and bull-like horns". But who made it? And why?

Are you saying that you actually see a "A strange structure with human-like face and bull-like horns" in that photo? All I see is a layer of sediment covered in ice. OH no wait, now I see it. That is just a trick of lighting, you wouldn't see it from another angle. Can you honestly tell me you've never seen a human face in a jumble of rocks before? And anyways why would the supposedly pious Noah have a pagan image on his boat?