Has God abandoned his own people?

[Kaon]

Is it? I honestly have no idea. I was just going by what people told me in another thread I had made about a month ago similar to this one. They said that 1/3rd of Jews believe in Jesus. But, I honestly don't know how many Jews accept Jesus as the messiah. But, apparently every Jew is going to accept him when he returns. But someone brought up a good point. The 12 tribes of Israel are going to be inscribed in the New Jerusalem. So God hasn't at the very least, hasn't forgotten about his people.

Hebrews, or Israel, are a people. The Most High God means individuals that follows Him and show His glory through their faith and works as someone who is an "Israelite/Hebrew". So, the world is already confused about the identity of a Hebrew - psychologically disqualifying themselves as Hebrews (The Most High God's definition) because of what the world has designated as Israel. The Hebrews are immovable; they have, and will always exist as a set apart remnant of people chosen by the Most High God. Most don't realize who they are, and the Word of God Himself said there are those who call themselves such, and actually are nothing of the sort.

We have been told everything. When will we ever learn to stop following the world?

 

[Uber Genius]

You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

So we try not to cherry pick verses and use them as premises in deductive arguments about what God will or will not do.

If you want to study this topic look for the term "Soteriology."

IVP has a counter-point series entitled "4(or 5) views on salvation." It highlights the totality of Biblical data in context properly exegeted not lifted out of context as your verse was, and then asks which inference (hypothesis) best explains the Biblical data? Scholars represent the various positive arguments that favor their view and their opponents give various defeaters for the arguments. I highly recommend that approach as it leads to an accumulation of doctrinal knowledge.

 

[Dave L]

You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

"All Israel" = first century Jewish believers and gentile believers from then on. The broken off unbelievers are not biblical Israel, but gentiles. Grafted into biblical Israel if they accept Christ.

 

[Foxfyre]

You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

I do believe the Jews were God's chosen people from which the Messiah would come. And even those who are not yet Christian still believe in that Messiah. Are they damned because they don't know that Jesus was the Messiah they were looking for? That is way above my pay grade and not my prerogative to say. That's God's department and only He has the authority to say who will and will not be in Heaven. But in my heart, I think God does not abandon a people who have loved and obeyed Him for all these thousands of years and I will be interested to see what provision He has made for them.

Who will share heaven with us is interesting to speculate on now and then, if it is kept in a lighter mode of discussion, but I long ago stopped worrying about it all that much. I pray for those who don't know the living Christ. I hope I am a willing vessel through which God can reach and love others. But I don't get to say who will and will not be in Heaven.

 

[Dave-W]

"All Israel" = first century Jewish believers and gentile believers from then on. The broken off unbelievers are not biblical Israel, but gentiles. Grafted into biblical Israel if they accept Christ.

DaveL - you have ignored over and over again the call for you to reconcile your position with Paul calling Israel “enemies of the gospel.”

Please do so.

 

[Dave L]

DaveL - you have ignored over and over again the call for you to reconcile your position with Paul calling Israel “enemies of the gospel.”

Please do so.

All circumcised before the Cross were valid Jews. But nothing remained to make one a physical biblical Jew after that generation died off.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but God's words will stand forever. It is better to believe that we just do not understand, than to believe that God has/can go back on His word.
Children do not demand that they know the whole matter before continuing forward.........the kingdom of heaven is for such......

100% this. I trust God.

 

[Not David]

You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

You are forgetting the fact that there were always a small percentage of Jews who were saved. How many didn't kneel to Baal in comparison to the people who did it?

 

[Ken Rank]

You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

If God made a promise (or promises) that all of Israel will be saved and that He will not abandon (forever) His people... then that is truth. Any ideology or theology that we have that doesn't allow us to see that is on us, and we must adjust our manner of reading Scripture.

 

[Dave-W]

All circumcised before the Cross were valid Jews. But nothing remained to make one a physical biblical Jew after that generation died off.

That still makes no sense with Paul’s words.

 

[com7fy8]

it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

Paul says there were Jews who refused their Messiah, and so they were broken off. And Gentiles have been joined with the Jews who have trusted in Jesus as our Messiah.

So, what about the Jews who have refused? Jesus told unbelieving Jews that they would die in their sins. But Paul says if an unbelieving Jews trusts in Jesus, this will be blessing for us.

And Paul says the one who is circumcised in one's heart is a true Jew. So, we have Gentile background believers who are circumcised in our hearts so we are part of the Israel of God.

 

[parousia70]

Hebrews, or Israel, are a people. The Most High God means individuals that follows Him and show His glory through their faith and works as someone who is an "Israelite/Hebrew". So, the world is already confused about the identity of a Hebrew - psychologically disqualifying themselves as Hebrews (The Most High God's definition) because of what the world has designated as Israel. The Hebrews are immovable; they have, and will always exist as a set apart remnant of people chosen by the Most High God. Most don't realize who they are, and the Word of God Himself said there are those who call themselves such, and actually are nothing of the sort.

The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

 

[parousia70]

How many didn't kneel to Baal ...?

7000

 

[Kaon]

The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it.

Indeed. It's always bad when common-folk do better than nobility, but at least the Most High God actually drains the swamp and replenishes the cavity.

Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

I would say with a huge caveat. The majority of the (genetic) Hebrews are in tact - the same remnant that the Most High has always kept from generation to generation - from all tribes. Most of them just don't know who they are. However, a tribe or two have been made "ineligible". Dan is definite a "viper along the road" that judges nations; there are also entities that claim they are Hebrews, or Jewish as it were, but are not actually such. Additionally, there are some genetic Hebrews that maliciously destroy the people of the Most High God. These are the synagogue of satan - like the Pharisees, and hypocritical alleged men of the Most High God that purposefully use their power for exploitation and personal gain.

 

[Dave L]

That still makes no sense with Paul’s words.

Study circumcision and how it made one a Physical Jew and physical member of Israel. And then consider how Christ abolished it on the cross, leaving only true believers as Israel, and then consider that today's physical Jews and Israel are actually gentiles practicing Jewish rituals and customs.

 

[parousia70]

The majority of the (genetic) Hebrews are in tact - the same remnant that the Most High has always kept from generation to generation - from all tribes.

According to those who call themselves Jews today, All peoples on earth today are genetically related to Abraham.

The Jews tell us that we're all Jews.
The genetics and mathematics agree.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[parousia70]

The majority of the (genetic) Hebrews are in tact - - the same remnant that the Most High has always kept from generation to generation - from all tribes. Most of them just don't know who they are. .

Every Hebrew under the Old Covenant either Followed Israels Messiah in the 1st century or was cut off from the covenant FOREVER.

THAT is what the Bible teaches.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

St. Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many thousands of other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Israel survived past 70AD *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

 

[HTacianas]

You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

Zec 13:9 - And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God

 

[Kaon]

.

 

[Norbert L]

You know I'm finding the doctrine that God abandoned and condemned 2/3rds of his own people to hell just because 2,000 years ago and to this day they rejected the messiah.

Where did I get 2/3rds from Apparently 1/3rd of the Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and are saved.

So that leaves 2/3rds of the current Jews non believing. So that means that 2/3rds of the Jews won't be saved until Christ returns and every Jew will acknowledge him as the messiah? Did God abandon those who have abandonded Christ or does God have a plan for them? The closest thing we get to an answer from the Bible is Romans 10:26 in which Paul says all Israel will be saved. But people have said that Paul was excluding the unbelieving Jews. So what will happen to the unbelieving Jews? Surely God has a plan for his own people! This is the hardest thing to accept about Christianity in that somehow God has abandoned his own people because they rejected the Messiah. But yet Christians are now Gods people and God abandoned his chosen people when they rejected him. Nope I find that EXTREMELY difficult to swallow.

There's also psalm 94:13 in which it says God will not abandon his own people so maybe there is a plan for the Israelites?

I image what some people may say, Jesus would of been mistaken to tell the other man being crucified next to Him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." because neither did the resurrection happen yet nor could the disciples or any one else believe in it.