Has evolution occured?

[Brightmoon]

I'm not sure I can think of any trait at all, whether or not we can show it evolved, that is broadly advantageous by your definition, at least if you're looking at traits that differ between species. Every trait carries costs as well as benefits, and every beneficial trait is only beneficial in a some environments.

. Polar bears have hair . Naked mole rats don’t . A hairy naked mole rat would have problems with skin diseases in the narrow humid tunnels they live in. A hairless polar bear would die within a few minutes . ‘Every beneficial trait is only beneficial in some environments ‘ to quote sfs

 

[xianghua]

Exactly. And they should because that's what it actually is.

but we all know that evolution isnt just about variations or speciations. evolution is also about common descent. and this is indeed a belief.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

That may be true but that isn't at issue. My vote is either justified or not in reference to his question. I voted based on his definition, so my votes justification is tied only to his definition. It says nothing about the actual definitions of evolution.

Ok. How you voted on that question is inconsequential and cannot be justified because it's a bad definition. Nothing anyone says in response to your OP will help you justify it because it's a bad definition.

So, I guess I'm done with this post. Carry on.

 

[Sanoy]

. Polar bears have hair . Naked mole rats don’t . A hairy naked mole rat would have problems with skin diseases in the narrow humid tunnels they live in. A hairless polar bear would die within a few minutes . ‘Every beneficial trait is only beneficial in some environments ‘ to quote sfs

Ok so that busts my model in #17 as a general rule. I guess we have to keep considerations within their own circle sometimes.

 

[Brightmoon]

Ok so that busts my model in #17 as a general rule. I guess we have to keep considerations within their own circle sometimes.

This need to adapt to an specific environment drives evolution. The timemas I showed you also demonstrate that. Now add in plate tectonics which changes rainfall patterns, Wind patterns, yearly sunlight levels and intensity due to moving north or south etc etc etc. You get species continually changing to adapt to the continually changing environment. Remember that millions of years ago the equator once cut through a sideways Canada and North America. Do you think a tropical plant could survive a Canadian winter? if the lineage survived to modern times then it had to become other species which probably wouldn’t be able to live in the tropics

 

[USincognito]

Thanks. Just one is enough for me to justify my vote. So if there is one that hits those two conditions it works.

I can do all of them pretty succinctly and since I reject your framing of what would constitute evidence, I shall present each of them as evidence for evolution (again, succinctly).

- Hoxd12 and Hoxd13 and whale flipper evolution.
- Sonic Hedgehog/Hand2 pathway and whale hind limb loss.

Basically the Hoxd12 and 13 control limb and digit formation in tetrapods. In cetaceans changes to them have caused the forelimbs to return to a 5 digit form and then to web into a flipper.
Adaptive evolution of 5'HoxD genes in the origin and diversification of the cetacean flipper. - PubMed - NCBI
Sonic Hedgehog (Shh) plays a huge role in body development. Limbs, parts of the brain, even teeth are effected by it. In the case of cetacean hind limbs, it's the interaction between Shh and Hand2 that would form their hind legs. Yes, every legged terrestrial tetrapod had hind limbs because of the Shh/Hand2 pathway. In cetaceans that pathway doesn't function so the ebryonic limb buds never develop and are absorbed back into the body. Is this a case of Intelligent design? Who knows? Mosasaurs did just fine for 55 million years with hind flippers. Plesiosaurs and Ichthyosaurs did just fine for nearly 250 million years. Whales have been around for 45 million years.

- Bmp2, fgf8, etc. and bat wing evolution.

Bmp's are bone morphogenetic proteins. Fgf's are Fibroblast growth factors. This paper provides a detailed explanation into how they played a role on the evolution of bat wings.
Interdigital webbing retention in bat wings illustrates genetic changes underlying amniote limb diversification

- SRGAP2C and ARHGAP11B in human brain evolution

SRGAP2C (the C means it's a variant allele) causes an increase in dendrites in genus Homo.
Human brain shaped by duplicate genes
ARHGAP11B (the B means it's a variant allele) causes the Homo brain to have a larger neocortex and perhaps to have folds increasing brain surface.
Human-specific ARHGAP11B induces hallmarks of neocortical expansion in developing ferret neocortex | eLife

- LCT/MCM6 regulation and human lactase production into adulthood.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, MCM6 causes LCT to shut down after weaning and to stop producing lactase which allows mammals to digest milk. That means humans with the LCT/MCM6 regulation mutation produce lactase into adulthood and can consume milk and milk byproducts into adulthood.

- CCR5delta32 and HIV immunity

If this one needs explanation, I don't know what to tell you.

- EPAS1 in Tibetans allowing them to function better at altitude.

The EPAS1 variant that Tibetan's carry allows them to function better in a low oxygen environment and to have improved oxygen transport.

 

[Speedwell]

but we all know that evolution isnt just about variations or speciations. evolution is also about common descent. and this is indeed a belief.

Is that the part of evolution you object to?

 

[Brightmoon]

but we all know that evolution isnt just about variations or speciations. evolution is also about common descent. and this is indeed a belief.

Umm no we have evidence that this really happened. Creationists like you like to pretend that we don’t have this evidence

 

[Sanoy]

I can do all of them pretty succinctly and since I reject your framing of what would constitute evidence, I shall present each of them as evidence for evolution (again, succinctly).

Well thank you I guess, but without those two aspects it doesn't help me personally. This thread has nothing to do with providing evidence for evolution, it is a personal request for help. I guess I'll have to look through these myself.

 

[USincognito]

Well thank you I guess, but without those two aspects it doesn't help me personally. This thread has nothing to do with providing evidence for evolution, it is a personal request for help. I guess I'll have to look through these myself.

What, exactly is missing from the list I have provided that a normal person would not consider sufficient evidence?

 

[Sanoy]

What, exactly is missing from the list I have provided that a normal person would not consider sufficient evidence?

I am not looking for evidence of evolution. I am looking for examples of evolution as defined in the OP, which is what I voted yes on. 1 & 2 were there to make sure the example is applicable to the definition in the OP. (I realize people don't like the definition #19) These look promising so I can just look over them on my own.

 

[Brightmoon]

I am not looking for evidence of evolution. I am looking for examples of evolution as defined in the OP, which is what I voted yes on. 1 & 2 were there to make sure the example is applicable to the definition in the OP. (I realize people don't like the definition #19) These look promising so I can just look over them on my own.

Since that doesn’t occur very often why do you think that this scenario should be definitive evidence of evolution ? And if it does happen it will be in bacteria because they tend to hoover up stray bits of DNA and insert it in their genome . The only one I can think of is the nylon eating bacteria and even that was a frameshift mutation. Nylon has an odd chemical structure that living organisms usually cannot break down( digest). This bacteria evolved the trait fairly recently as nylon didn’t exist before the 1930s .

 

[Sanoy]

Since that doesn’t occur very often why do you think that this scenario should be definitive evidence of evolution ? And if it does happen it will be in bacteria because they tend to hoover up stray bits of DNA and insert it in their genome . The only one I can think of is the nylon eating bacteria and even that was a frameshift mutation. Nylon has an odd chemical structure that living organisms usually cannot break down( digest). This bacteria evolved the trait fairly recently as nylon didn’t exist before the 1930s .

I don't think this should be definitive evidence of evolution. Yep I agree about bacteria and virus's being the best chance of finding it #5. So the way this works is if there are not mutations like I classified them I am just wrong, and my wrongness means nothing in regards to evolution as a whole. But I know that I was wrong or probably wrong and knowing is what I wanted. I looked over half of incognito's list but really couldn't tell enough to answer 1 or 2, but your in the right area and seem to know about it. I think I recall hearing something about there being no such mutations in bacteria/virus, so unless someone thinks of one later I'm going to take that and your knowledge over this area as a good indication that I was wrong.

 

[tas8831]

I'm sure you are right about the general definition of evolution, but I still want this one because it correlates well with the inquiry.

The problem with forebrains is that we already have them. The answer to this question would have to be something recent. To know that it has occured you have to have it's dna before and after and know the variables in between. The only thing I know of that we have a chance in observing such a thing is viruses and bacteria because of how fast they replicate. So I don't expect science to have to have an example to maintain it's course. I just want to check my beliefs in how I voted. I voted that it has occurred, but then realized later that I don't actually know of any examples.

Well then this is a bogus challenge/question, for how is one to have pre-adaptation DNA?

 

[xianghua]

Is that the part of evolution you object to?

yep.

 

[xianghua]

Umm no we have evidence that this really happened. Creationists like you like to pretend that we don’t have this evidence

can you show me such evidence and explain why ID/creation cant explain it? i will show you that we can explain it without a common descent.

 

[tas8831]

i will show you that we can explain it without a common descent.

Robot penguin?

lets check your claim. can you show a step by step explanation for the creation of the flagellum, at the dust-to-bacteria level?

so how do you know that the creation of the flagellum is possible? you only believe so

 

[Sanoy]

Well then this is a bogus challenge/question, for how is one to have pre-adaptation DNA?

I urge you to reread the OP as the purpose of the thread has nothing to do with verifying whether evolution is true. It is for me to know if I was right or wrong in my vote.

______________________
I urge everyone to do a better job at understanding what a person is saying. Almost everyone in this section comes here for no other purpose than to do battle, few actually come to listen or discuss. That really must change.

 

[Speedwell]

yep.

I suppose there is a remote possibility it might not be true, but it certainly is a reasonable inference from the data we have, and there is at the moment no other explanation. Until someone comes up with something better, I can see no reason to object to it. Why do you?

 

[xianghua]

I suppose there is a remote possibility it might not be true, but it certainly is a reasonable inference from the data we have, and there is at the moment no other explanation

what about separate creation? its actually a good explanation and even better then common descent.