Has anyone read David E. Taylor's book Face to Face Appearences from Jesus ?

[Life Warrior]

Just to let all of you who have been part of this discussion; I am not the kind of person who holds onto a belief no matter what. I only want to believe the truth, and I pray daily for God to lead me to all truth. I believe completely in the Bible, and if anything is contrary to scripture, then I will not believe it. But so far everything which I read in David's book seemed authentic; but I'm not 100% certain.

 

[Alive_Again]

But so far everything which I read in David's book seemed authentic; but I'm not 100% certain.

It's not that it is some "new" revelation. It's already in the Word. It's kind of like where the Word points to signs and wonders happening in the church. We know they do, but they seem to be predominantly somewhere "else". Also the operations o the gifts of the Spirit sometimes are not as common as they should be. The five fold ministry does not seem to be present everywhere (or received). These things are all scriptural and the gifts should flow abundantly; the signs and wonders should be commonplace (though not common), all of the ministry offices should be working mightily; the harvest should be greater because the fields are white, etc.

Revelation on the Word should be greatly increased. The Word is "miles deep". Many times we only go a little past the surface, even though we do understand a great deal more than the "traditional" church and their trusted leaders.

So as far as God led David to expound on the John 14 scripture...

The way God can manifest Himself to us when we love Him is a LOT more than we currently experience; that we should seek it out like the thirsty deer who knows where the spring is; like a hunter on the trail; like a treasure seeker who has already found more than he thought possible.

Listen with an open heart. David's not promising an appearance by God to sell books. He boldly spoke forth the promise Jesus made to those who read the book (and presumably received the revelation) -- even in hope. If you receive it as a scoffer you won't hear it and you'll bear the fruit of the kind of tree that you have become. This can happen to any of us and we have all sat in the seat of the scornful.

So the Lord has appeared (waking and sleeping) to David over a hundred times and He instructed the church to consider and believe. God has no favorites! All things are possible to him that believes. Take the limits off of God. Believe me, I'm preaching to myself!

 

[jamadan]

Ok, so has the Holy Spirit told you that David Taylor is a false teacher/prophet? And have you actually read any of his books or not?

Correction to previous answer - I've read his website, enough false material on there to demonstrate the validity of what the Spirit told me.

 

[Alive_Again]

I can say with very strong confidence that the majority of the manifestations like the heavenly visits, feathers, gems, dust, etc are the product of human deception. But some, a few who have genuinely entertained angels of lights, are actually preternatural manifestations (in other words, demonic).

I can say for a certainty that both David E. Taylor and Kat Kerr have some of the strongest anointings I have been around.

Actually read David's book and read it as a seeker. Don't read it as a gatekeeper. David preaches a more excellent way and his book portrays that very obviously. The book is like a "key' to a higher walk. Part of the rewards of that kind of walk are greater manifestations of His presence, culminating in a visitation or visitations.

It's not a "I read the book and I'm waiting for my appearance." It's a "I'm an avid seeker of God's will and purpose and I have an expectation of His presence that will grow. His promise (not David's) is that you would end up with a visitation. It does not say when.

If you read the book you'd easily see that is not something "some watchman spirit" should be kicking in to warn the church!!!

It is a call for a higher (narrower) walk. It is a call to love more fervently. For a livelier hope! To even go beyond the "friendship" level with God. What warning would you provide the church against that?

You listen to deceiving spirits. The Kat Kerr thing is so strong and I've seen God move so many times in response to the revelation and you brand her a heretic. What "gifting" will you claim to lead you into that "discernment"?

Kat tells people to stop sinning and messing around with the world. She preaches a narrow path. She says Heaven is going to move on earth with the church in a way that has never been seen before, and you take up the banner to warn the church?!! How great is that darkness.

I know we all sin, but you cannot call good evil and evil good.

When these signs start taking place I want you to really examine these things that you say.

I want to repeat that God does NOT allow the liberty of judging His house. He won't violate His Word. Only you can choose to fear and stop spreading filth about His servants. These are anointed messages designed to exhort His bride to purity and fervency. Stop being like a Crusader who persecuted God's people is His name.

(Grammar changes)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have to disagree with you here Oscar. At least in part. John had an appearance of Jesus and as a result wrote the book of Revelation....It was not simply some thing which the Holy Spirit impressed upon John. There were actual visions which John had.

Paul on the road to Damascus is another example. It was Jesus who confronted Paul who was then named Saul.

Both John and Paul had conversations with Jesus after the ascention. Neither one describes Jesus as being limited to sitting at the right hand of the Father. And neither one speaks of the Holy Spirit's presence as excluding having a conversation with Jesus.

Discussing the details and implications of these instances is another subject. But making blanket statements which make rules which the Bible does not make is not called for.

I am by no means ruling out the possibility that people could have false visions of Jesus. But I think I am on solid ground to say that the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John both had real ones.

Jesus was quite clear when He said that He was going away and sending the Holy Spirit in His place in the world. The person of Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. All you have to do is to read the book of Hebrews to find that out.

Jesus is not going to do anything that goes against His Word. If He said that he was going away and that they would see Him no more and that the Holy Spirit was going to be their guide until the Second Coming, then for Him to come back in person would make Him a liar and that He did not mean what He said. Of course we know that He meant what He said.

I believe both John and Paul saw visions of Jesus communicated to them by the Holy Spirit. Paul did not see Jesus Himself. He was blinded by a bright light and he heard the voice of Jesus. I believe that Jesus is able to speak directly from Heaven. And anyway, this was a special event because Paul was given a special calling that no one else has ever had since.

John had a vision of Jesus, not a personal visitation. The Scripture says that he was in the Spirit. It was the Spirit that generated the revelation of the things he saw in the vision.

I stand by my assertion that we will not see Jesus in person until He comes again. Any other personal visitation is a counterfeit and will lead people away from the sound doctrine that is clearly set out in Scripture.

 

[Alive_Again]

The person of Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. All you have to do is to read the book of Hebrews to find that out.

The thing is, Oscarr, is that you are too!

Jesus is not going to do anything that goes against His Word.

That's exactly right, but often it is our understanding of the Word that is lacking. I've had a lot of revision myself in the last several years. There is a lot more yet to go. We barely know what many scriptures mean. We put God in a box because of the part of our knowing.

 

[Watchman4hm]

There is no support in the New Testament for personal appearances by Jesus after His ascension.

Sure there is..When Mary Magdalene saw Jesus He told her not to touch Him because he had not yet ascended..On the road to Emmaus He spoke to the disciples who were sad the same day..But He appeared to the disciples again with Thomas being told to "touch and handle" Him, for spirit hath not flesh and bone..(Eight days later John 20:26)

 

[Faulty]

Sure there is..When Mary Magdalene saw Jesus He told her not to touch Him because he had not yet ascended..On the road to Emmaus He spoke to the disciples who were sad the same day..But He appeared to the disciples again with Thomas being told to "touch and handle" Him, for spirit hath not flesh and bone..(Eight days later John 20:26)

These were pre-ascension.

 

[Biblicist]

Thank you. I feel little bit better about what you said now that you have provided the basis for your conclusions. So it is not that you are against visions , just against using those visions to trump the teaching of scripture and make those visions the basis for a person's authority in teaching ?

You’ve raised a fair point and undoubtedly others might be thinking along similar lines. As a prelude to my reply, being that my theology is both highly Trinitarian and Pneumatic in nature this means that my theological expectations are that every Spirit led congregation is to ensure that the following God given functions/Offices (1 Co 12:28) are to be in place:

• Apostle, prophet, teacher, powers, healings, administrations, helps and tongues

Not only should the above 8 Offices be in place but the leadership of these Spirit led congregations should be ensuring that its members are being encouraged to seek after the following Manifestations of the Holy Spirit (1Co 12:7-11):

• Wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, powers, prophecy, discernment, tongues and interpretation

Even though dreams and visions are not Manifestations of the Spirit they are still a very important method in which the Father uses to speak to individuals, though in a private manner, which in themselves cannot be verified by the congregation, unless the Spirit intervenes with some form of additional verification such as with a prophecy etc.

About 15 years ago I was heavily involved with a certain congregation and one night I had a very definite dream that I was to no longer remain involved with that church at least in the specific area that the dream related to. After the completion of the dream which certainly shook me up a bit, I quickly sat up after this dream and I had absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I was to immediately stop my involvement. A couple of days later I mentioned this to one of the senior members of this congregations leadership team but this left him in somewhat of a conundrum; now he knew that I was convinced with the ‘validity’ of my dream but he understandably had no witness or connection to it and how could he as he was the number two staffer in this large congregation.

Now even today, I am completely convinced that this dream was from the Lord but with hindsight I was probably a bit unwise in telling him of this dream as I should have simply stated that I feel impressed by the Lord that I was to discontinue what I was doing without the need to play the so called “God-card”.

I also believe in the inner witness of the Spirit. In this case , I have to be honest and say I have no inner witness one way or the other about these two people. I have never heard of or listened to either one even once.

I took the subject of the thread, in practice, to be a more general discussion on these types of things than just limited to these two people ...So I gave my comments in that context.

From within my perspective, I am convinced that we should quickly dismiss any individuals claim to having visitations from the Lord (other than through a dream) and visits to heaven. As Oscar pointed out, the Apostle John was only given a vision where he was enabled to write down a major book of the Bible though I would disagree with him that Paul did not see Jesus face to face on the road to Damascus. If we only see the all-important Paul receiving a direct face to face encounter and with a later visitation to heaven, then who are we to make such wild claims.

I still think that I can detect a little bit of a skeptical attitude towards visions in your post. My question to you would be when and on what basis would a vision be acceptable? Are you against all visions or just the ones that seem to subvert scripture as the main authority in a believer's life?

When it comes to anyone who runs around making unsubstantiated claims that God has spoken to them through constant dreams, visions and through visits to heaven (along with an email address for future speaking engagements) then I have a complete confidence with discerning that they can be quickly disregarded and that we should not even give them the hand of fellowship.

I think that we could safely ask, “is a vision ever an acceptable witness” when it is being used to justify someones actions or beliefs? To give an example, lets say that the Lord gave you a dream where it seems that you were to tell me that “with the next book that I pick up that I am to turn to page 77 and it will say “ so and so”. Now if you were used to experiencing these types of dreams then this would give you a degree of confidence with letting me know about the dreams content; if I were to then randomly pick up a book and it said exactly what you felt impressed to say to me then I would have little if any doubt that the Lord had used you to speak to me in this manner.

The problem we have is that you can never know if I am saying that your dream was correct simply to play along with a good story and what a great story it would be. So even though you spoke out in faith you could never be sure that I was simply just ‘playing along’ but as I knew that your message was undoubtedly from God then I would definitely be well advised to carefully consider what had just occurred.

Now given that I was convinced that what you had to say to me was correct, it is still something that only I can have a strong witness to and I certainly could not use it to demand that someone else accepts my future actions simply on the basis of what I have claimed – as how do they really know for sure that my account is true.

 

[Biblicist]

I am trying to reply to a couple of other indepth posts but time is somewhat limited at the moment.

 

[whatfor]

Can I ask , if the Holy Spirit were to manifest to you , would you think it was Jesus?
They are all God so would He look like Jesus to you?

I visit people in hospital and some of them see Jesus when they are in there.
They are comforted, not led away from Jesus.

 

[Watchman4hm]

These were pre-ascension.

NO ...read it again!...EIGHT DAYS AFTER ASCENSION He appeared to the disciples and Thomas was told to touch His wounds and He said a spirit hath not flesh and bone...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The thing is, Oscarr, is that you are too!

Correct. But we are not there in person. We cannot be while we are still in our sinful bodies, and we will not be glorified and changed until we die, or Jesus comes again. We are seated with Christ at the right hand of God in faith, above all principality and power. We have that faith through in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That's exactly right, but often it is our understanding of the Word that is lacking. I've had a lot of revision myself in the last several years. There is a lot more yet to go. We barely know what many scriptures mean. We put God in a box because of the part of our knowing.

In John 14, Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them in the many mansions that are in His Father's house, and when He comes again, He will receive us to Himself. He told them that He must go to His Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent to indwell believers. If Jesus has appeared in person to people, this has to mean that the Second Coming has already come. He warned His disciples that false prophets will say "here is Jesus", and "there is Jesus", but do not believe them.

To say that God can do anything is a human philosophical notion, and is not consistent with His Word. God has put in a place a specific plan and purpose for the world, and His purpose for this Day of Grace is for the Holy Spirit to indwell believers and teach, guide, and instruct them in the Christian faith. Although God is sovereign and does things His way, He will not suddenly depart from His plan and purpose. He is not a "law to Himself" in the sense that He behaves irrationally and haphazardly. Jesus will not say that He is going away, and then on the spur of the moment decide to come back in person to selected individuals.

The Scripture says that God is no respecter of persons. If He is going to reveal Himself in person to selected people, He should be revealing Himself to every believer in the same way. God does not play favourites. We are all filled with the Holy Spirit and have equal access to the leading and guiding of the Spirit.

If you don't understand the clear and unmistakable things that Jesus said in plain language, it might mean that you are trying to "spiritualise" Scripture instead of taking what Jesus said literally. Remeber that Jesus was speaking to ordinary, mostly uneducated people, and not philosophers or theological students. Therefore, He used plain, easy to understand language. The problem with many of us is that we have a wrong view of God, making Him to be this airy fairy person who runs around the universe doing just what He likes. This is quite wrong. God is a very ordered, holy Person who is bound by His own moral law and the integrity of His promises and His Word.

If Jesus is, in person, seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, and the actual presence of God with us is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, then that is the reality. This is why I believe that any "personal" appearance of "Jesus" is a demonic counterfeit designed to deceive even the very elect if possible, so they are distracted away from the true plan and purpose of God, into looking for sensory experiences and "spiritual" guidances irrespective of what the Scripture clearly says.

I am so sure about this that if I encountered anything like a personal appearance of someone who looked like Jesus, I will say very boldly, "I am not interested in meeting Jesus until I see Him in Glory. Get behind me satan! I resist your counterfeiting deception in the name of Jesus!".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

NO ...read it again!...EIGHT DAYS AFTER ASCENSION He appeared to the disciples and Thomas was told to touch His wounds and He said a spirit hath not flesh and bone...

After He came out of the tomb, He met Mary just before He went to the Father to offer His blood as the sacrifice for our sin. This is described in the book of Hebrews. Once He had done that, He came back to the disciplles and breathed on them and said "receive the Holy Spirit." They were converted at that point. They could never have been converted unless Jesus had presented His blood to the Father. That is why He prevented Mary from holding Him.

But once He returned to the disciples, it was then He invited Thomas to put his fingers into the nail holes, etc. Then, for 40 days He fellowshipped with the disciples until he visibly ascended from the Mount of Olives. Ten days after that, the Holy Spirit fell on the 120 in the upper room.

You cannot take one verse of Scripture out of its context and make a doctrine out of it. You have to study the whole sequence of events to get an understanding of the process.

After Jesus ascended into heaven from the Mount of Olives, the angels told the disciples that one day they would see Him come back the same way. The Scripture says that when we see Him in person, it will be Him coming through the clouds and every eye will see him. Not just one or two having personal appearances.

 

[Watchman4hm]

Sure there is..When Mary Magdalene saw Jesus He told her not to touch Him because he had not yet ascended..On the road to Emmaus He spoke to the disciples who were sad the same day..But He appeared to the disciples again with Thomas being told to "touch and handle" Him, for spirit hath not flesh and bone..(Eight days later John 20:26)

Why eight days later?..Because He is our high priest..We were shown a shadow of things in heaven here on earth..We need to look back at what the high priest after the order of Aaron were told to do and then we should understand why Jesus came back after 7 days and then on the eight AFTER HIS ASCENSION and showed Himself AGAIN..

Exodus 29:36And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it. 37Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
38Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.

 

[Watchman4hm]

After He came out of the tomb, He met Mary just before He went to the Father to offer His blood as the sacrifice for our sin. This is described in the book of Hebrews. Once He had done that, He came back to the disciplles and breathed on them and said "receive the Holy Spirit." They were converted at that point. They could never have been converted unless Jesus had presented His blood to the Father. That is why He prevented Mary from holding Him.

But once He returned to the disciples, it was then He invited Thomas to put his fingers into the nail holes, etc. Then, for 40 days He fellowshipped with the disciples until he visibly ascended from the Mount of Olives. Ten days after that, the Holy Spirit fell on the 120 in the upper room.

You cannot take one verse of Scripture out of its context and make a doctrine out of it. You have to study the whole sequence of events to get an understanding of the process.

After Jesus ascended into heaven from the Mount of Olives, the angels told the disciples that one day they would see Him come back the same way. The Scripture says that when we see Him in person, it will be Him coming through the clouds and every eye will see him. Not just one or two having personal appearances.

LOL...You just admitted he ASCENDED TO HIS FATHER right after talking with Mary...You claimed that we have no biblical precedent for Jesus making personal appearances AFTER HE ASCENDED..I say yes we do!!..He ascended to sprinkle the alter in heaven and then came back...Just because many saw him "ascend through clouds" is irrelevant....And furthermore AFTER he ascended and met with the Disciples and Thomas he was seen in his GLORIFIED body..They didnt fall down like you say should happen...(talk about making up stuff...common Oscarr...)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Can I ask , if the Holy Spirit were to manifest to you , would you think it was Jesus?
They are all God so would He look like Jesus to you?

I visit people in hospital and some of them see Jesus when they are in there.
They are comforted, not led away from Jesus.

The Holy Spirit does not have to manifest to anyone. He is already dwelling in us. The presence of Christ is radiated out of every genuine believer through the fruit of the Spirit, and the power of the Holy Spirit working through us to enable unconverted sinners to understand and believe the Gospel.

What people see when they see Jesus, is a vision and not a personal appearance. Smith Wigglesworth had that experience when he was praying for someone dying of a disease. He saw Jesus at the end of the bed and knew that the person was going to be healed. But this was not Jesus in person, but a vision of Him.

Jesus cannot appear to us in person, because the very intensity of His glory would flatten us and we would fall at His feet as if dead. When Jesus appeared in His glory at His transfiguration, a cloud came down and obscured the full radiance of His glory from the disciples, but even the little bit of glory that they saw put them into a deep sleep.

But sometimes, the Holy Spirit will give a person a vision of Jesus for a specific purpose, as I have just described about Smith Wigglesworth, but it is a pale imitation of the real Jesus. But even that has a dynamic effect on a person and they never forget it. I have had a vision like that, twice. Once as a little child living in a house that I believe was infested with demons. I used to see these horrible monsters in my nightmares. But one night I saw this person in shining white robes, and I never saw those monsters again. That vision was instrumental in me accepting Christ many years later. The other time was when I was a Christian for two years. I was prayed for about a spiritual problem and I had a vision of Jesus standing before me in all His holiness. The next thing I knew I was face down on the floor crying my eyes out. It radically changed my life, and I found that I was starting to hear the voice of God in my heart from then on.

It is the role of the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus to us. He sometimes gives people visions of Jesus in order to encourage them in the faith. Paul was visited by angels to build him up and encourage him. But never to give him guidance about what to do. That was left to the Holy Spirit within him.

A preacher called William Branham said that he was visited by an angel who told him what his ministry was and gave him guidance. The outworking of that was he was instrumental in causing a major division in the body of Christ, which exists in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles to this day. The angel told him that he was to be a Bible teacher to teach doctrine. All his advisors warned him against it because they saw that he was a powerful evangelist with a effective healing ministry. But he would not listen, and that resulted in disaster for him and for the Pentecostal church. So, we must be very careful about visitations of angels and "Jesus". Approach them with a long barge pole and be ready to run away if necessary.

 

[whatfor]

What you say makes sense , is the result of the book , if anything a vision of Jesus?

 

[Life Warrior]

He warned His disciples that false prophets will say "here is Jesus", and "there is Jesus", but do not believe them.

Mathew 24 ASV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.

Thats the exact scripture which came to my mind the instant my friend was giving me the book and telling me about it in the first place. Its the reason why I never read the book back then.

Now, either the Holy Spirit brought that scripture to my mind, or something else...

I remember telling my friend back then about that scripture, but apparently David Taylor debunked that scripture as being mis interpreted.

 

[JakeRussel]

Thats the exact scripture which came to my mind the instant my friend was giving me the book and telling me about it in the first place. Its the reason why I never read the book back then.

Now, either the Holy Spirit brought that scripture to my mind, or something else...

I remember telling my friend back then about that scripture, but apparently David Taylor debunked that scripture as being mis interpreted.

If you read his book, you will see that Jesus appears to him PERSONALLY, not in an outward flashy way as the scripture you referenced indicates of a false Jesus would do. Remember, any deception will lead you AWAY from God or lead you to believe in a half-truth about God, or ADDS something to God that creates a burden. In fact, anything that does not focus on KNOWING God PERSONALLY is a deception. Going to church will not save you, reading the bible and memorizing it will not save you, praying will not save you, worshiping will not save you. Only a relationship with Jesus will save you. That is what David Taylor is promoting loud and clear in his book. Only those who KNOW him PERSONALLY AND INTIMATELY will go to heaven. You have to know God NOW before you get to heaven. So those who say they will wait to know or see God when you get to heaven, or ridicule a prophet of God, or use their own understanding to discredit someone who is not against God, may not make it to heaven. The biggest hindrance to communion with God is our perception of who He is. Basing our perception of God’s character on personal opinions, logic/reason or attitudes of others will skew our understanding of His nature. Intimacy develops as a result of close contact with someone over a period of time. Did you ever think about the fact that He is already waiting for you? What an awesome thought: The “Creator” of all that is or ever will be is waiting to talk with you and me FACE TO FACE. God has appeared to people even before David Taylor wrote his book. Now that its coming to the end times where he will pour out his spirit on all flesh and people will have dreams and visions (Acts 2:17), God has used David to tell us that now, people can see him face to face for those who are his children. Don't you long to experience deeper experience of Jesus in your life?

P.S. I read both David's books and I am actually starting to read them again. I also read both of Kat Kerr's books, Rick Joyner's "The final quest" that talks about Christians in the end times ridiculing people who tell the truth about God and think they are actually doing the right thing, and Choo Thomas's book "heaven is so real", and a few more.