Has anyone read David E. Taylor's book Face to Face Appearences from Jesus ?

[Biblicist]

I've had a change of mind after reading the book, and checking and finding that all the scripture references David gives are correct.
And no, I did not read the book before I started this thread, I started reading the book a few hours after posting this thread.

Thanks.

 

[jamadan]

I would have thought that most of us were conversant with Col 2:18-19 where Paul attacks those who “take their stand on visions that they have seen”. One would have thought that if Paul expected that we could base our doctrinal positions on visions or from messages supposedly given by angels that he would have told us so. Here we have Paul attacking those who appear to be running around pretending that they have been given some special visionary revelation; if Paul takes such a hard stand on this issue then undoubtedly we are expected to be as diligent as he was in this matter.

NASB Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

If any of us have the misfortune of walking into a congregation where is someone on the platform spouting out the foolishness that we hear from the likes of David E. Taylor or Kat Kerr, then we would be well advised to leave the building as soon as possible.

Unlike Taylor and Kerr, we can make no false claim to any extra-biblical 'special inside information' but we can rely on the witness of the Spirit of God within us which is why we can say with complete confidence that these two are simply charlatans of the worst order.

Thank you, thank you, thank you . . . keep feeling like the guy who points out the emperor has no clothes and getting jumped on for saying the obvious and challenged to prove it, which of course is to say 'open your eyes' or perhaps 'pray that the Lord will open your eyes.' I can't believe we're actually at that place where Jesus warned, 'so that even the elect would be deceived', but here we are. Stuff that even baby Christians should have discernment to see is being accepted hook, line and stinker by a segment of charismatic Christians.

Seems to me the devil used the strengths of our movement (passion, commitment, love for the Lord, willingness to leap in faith) and taken advantage of our general weaknesses (poor Biblical exegesis, emotionally needy, experientially-oriented) to steer a large segment off in the wrong direction chasing after signs and wonders provided by deceiving ministers who make up stories about visions and angelic encounters and manufacture manifestations like gems, dusts, feathers, and smoke.

That a man can stand there and say Jesus promised a personal face to face visitation if you read his book . . . come on folks, wake up!! Smell the sales-pitch here! He says he was introduced to the Holy Spirit? People? Didn't he already have the Spirit dwelling in him? And how exactly does one 'meet' omnipresence?

I guess I should stop trying to splash the water in the faces to wake them up and just let them suffer the consequences of following after these demonic deceptions. Jesus said it would happen, 'Lord, Lord, did we not . . .'

 

[Biblicist]

Thank you, thank you, thank you . . . keep feeling like the guy who points out the emperor has no clothes and getting jumped on for saying the obvious and challenged to prove it, which of course is to say 'open your eyes' or perhaps 'pray that the Lord will open your eyes.'

Considering that we have now entered into the 21st century which means that we have been able to build up over a century of knowledge and experience with the Full Gospel; we now find ourselves playing with hobgoblins and esoteric tangents which have gone a long way to undermine the Gospel of Christ for so many.

Even though there will always be areas where we can find reasonable disagreement, such things can be addressed in a healthy manner which can help us all to grow. When it comes to the likes of Kerr and this Taylor chappie, I am staggered that there are many who can be so easily conned – and sadly there are many who even despise the term ‘discernment’!

Considering that there will be many silent individuals who visit this forum from time to time, we need to make sure that the Standard is raised so that they realise that a large portion of the Full Gospel movement is able to discern what is right from wrong - both in the natural and through the leading of the Spirit.

 

[Yitzchak]

I would have thought that most of us were conversant with Col 2:18-19 where Paul attacks those who “take their stand on visions that they have seen”. One would have thought that if Paul expected that we could base our doctrinal positions on visions or from messages supposedly given by angels that he would have told us so. Here we have Paul attacking those who appear to be running around pretending that they have been given some special visionary revelation; if Paul takes such a hard stand on this issue then undoubtedly we are expected to be as diligent as he was in this matter.

NASB Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

If any of us have the misfortune of walking into a congregation where is someone on the platform spouting out the foolishness that we hear from the likes of David E. Taylor or Kat Kerr, then we would be well advised to leave the building as soon as possible.

Unlike Taylor and Kerr, we can make no false claim to any extra-biblical 'special inside information' but we can rely on the witness of the Spirit of God within us which is why we can say with complete confidence that these two are simply charlatans of the worst order.

Thank you. I feel little bit better about what you said now that you have provided the basis for your conclusions. So it is not that you are against visions , just against using those visions to trump the teaching of scripture and make those visions the basis for a person's authority in teaching ?

On that we are in agreement. We should test the visions against the scripture. That is pretty standard doctrine for most churches.

I also believe in the inner witness of the Spirit. In this case , I have to be honest and say I have no inner witness one way or the other about these two people. I have never heard of or listened to either one even once.

I took the subject of the thread, in practice, to be a more general discussion on these types of things than just limited to these two people ...So I gave my comments in that context.

I still think that I can detect a little bit of a skeptical attitude towards visions in your post. My question to you would be when and on what basis would a vision be acceptable ? Are you against all visions or just the ones that seem to subvert scripture as the main authority in a believer's life ?

 

[Yitzchak]

Seems to me the devil used the strengths of our movement (passion, commitment, love for the Lord, willingness to leap in faith) and taken advantage of our general weaknesses (poor Biblical exegesis, emotionally needy, experientially-oriented) to steer a large segment off in the wrong direction

This statement I can agree with....It is your wild and somewhat random conclusions on the details that I find fault with.....

 

[Watchman4hm]

On that we are in agreement. We should test the visions against the scripture. That is pretty standard doctrine for most churches.

Exactly...If an angel, or man contradicts scripture, we should disregard whats purported to be fact..Ive known people who have claimed visions, visits, etc, because of what I believe to be extra-biblical beliefs..They have gone to great lengths to claim that certain books should have been included in the canon we have, as well as trying to discredit countless scholars who have researched text for hundreds of years and are in agreement with what is and isn't "inspired" or considered spurious.

 

[Yitzchak]

Exactly...If an angel, or man contradicts scripture, we should disregard whats purported to be fact..Ive known people who have claimed visions, visits, etc, because of what I believe to be extra-biblical beliefs..They have gone to great lengths to claim that certain books should have been included in the canon we have, as well as trying to discredit countless scholars who have researched text for hundreds of years and are in agreement with what is and isn't "inspired" or considered spurious.

Very true... When I read books about past revivals...men like John Wesley had some intense experiences.

But he also was fluent in several languages. He studied Latin and German so he could read Theological writings in their original languages. he studied Hebrew and Greek so that he could study the Bible in the original languages.
He studied the scriptures in a way that would make us look like we are not even putting in a serious effort to study the scriptures.

The same could be said of Charles Finney, Jonathan Edwards , William Seymour, William Booth, and many others. We love the radical results and experiences with the Lord that these men had. But they all loved the scripture and considered that to be the measure.

A love of the scriptures is a definite sign that the Holy Spirit is at work within a person.

 

[mourningdove~]

A love of the scriptures is a definite sign that the Holy spirit is at work within a person.

... the above bears repeating.

 

[Watchman4hm]

Very true... When I read books about past revivals...men like John Wesley had some intense experiences.

But he also was fluent in several languages. He studied Latin and German so he could read Theological writings in their original languages. he studied Hebrew and Greek so that he could study the Bible in the original languages.
He studied the scriptures in a way that would make us look like we are not even putting in a serious effort to study the scriptures.

The same could be said of Charles Finney, Jonathan Edwards , William Seymour, William Booth, and many others. We love the radical results and experiences with the Lord that these men had. But they all loved the scripture and considered that to be the measure.

A love of the scriptures is a definite sign that the Holy spirit is at work within a person.

I agree. I love reading books by certain people, and I know we all have our favorite authors..Even the ones I like I can disagree with at times. It could be that what they say seems like a red flag isn't, but also could have to do with them having a deeper understanding..But I cant ignore "red flags" even for a moment if there is a chance they are from the Holy Spirit. I have done this in the past because of certain authors seeming so "on top of things"...I call it itchy ear/Jules Verne syndrome..We all desire a deeper understanding of who the Lord is through reading the scriptures, and the devils will try to mix in half truths and downright fabrications of who God is to discredit Him as well as confuse us..We would all like to be special, and have something special to share with others. Hopefully those desires are rooted in genuine love and not because we want to be seen as a "scholar" or expert just for the sake of ego..Knowledge puffs up, love edifies others..

 

[Alive_Again]

I am responding to several at one time and each one of you know who said what.

NASB Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

It is primarily the "newer" translations of the Bible that say "visions he has seen". The KJV says "that he has NOT seen". When I say "new", I mean the Wescott and Hort "inspired" translations. While they are useful in some areas, they actually change the meaning of the text in others. This is a prime example of the damage this causes.

You assume (even if they "did see" in the scripture), that they would have to be puffed up and of a fleshy mind to have it at all. And that worship of angels is somehow involved. That a "self-abasement" (religiously and not of God) is occurring.

They never said that of John or any of the believers in the OT (I'll bet some did though!). They just gave us what they saw or heard.

If any of us have the misfortune of walking into a congregation where is someone on the platform spouting out the foolishness that we hear from the likes of David E. Taylor or Kat Kerr, then we would be well advised to leave the building as soon as possible.

You wouild be well advised to leave if you're not hearing. It's one thing to be undecided, but you often rush to judgment --- which we are not supposed to do. Raise the banner of those who rush in! "Protect"the childlike who judge after the Spirit and bar the doors of those who would enter in based on the violation of your understanding of the Word. Very sad.

Unlike Taylor and Kerr, we can make no false claim to any extra-biblical 'special inside information' but we can rely on the witness of the Spirit of God within us which is why we can say with complete confidence that these two are simply charlatans of the worst order.

It slumbers not. Your path is paved with the pearls of trampled offerings of intended blessing for God's children. Won't you change your judgment on matters like this (this isn't the only one you've pegged a charlatan).

Do a life comparison. For those who would read it hoping for it to be of God, read the book. Look at what is being preached. Look at the life David is living and espousing. Look at the walk and degree of obedience and faith he is adovcating in ALL believers. Compare that to the fruits of those who would file it in the "liar" bin. All of the players should be plainly obvious. Judge it for yourself and do not be swayed by the spewing of the enemy.

<That a man can stand there and say Jesus promised a personal face to face visitation if you read his book . . . come on folks, wake up!! Smell the sales-pitch here! He says he was introduced to the Holy Spirit? People? Didn't he already have the Spirit dwelling in him? And how exactly does one 'meet' omnipresence?

He just said what Jesus us told Him. Yes you can speak to the Holy Spirit and He does often take on a form, however different.

You think that is is all about money. As Kat said, you make very little publishing a book. Kat self published because you literally hardly make anything. She doesn't market the book, accept on her website. People recommend her book and CDs to others. They go all over the world. She tells people to go ahead and copy the CDs. It's not about the money. It's about getting the Word out. In Kat's case, it's about repenting and getting ready and stop looking for a way out. In David's case, it's about beliving there is so much more in that John 14 scripture about Jesus manifesting Himself to you. You can have a deeper and higher walk. That you can actually see Him! Where's the sales pitch in that? I really hope your eyes open on these matters because otherwise you'll stay where you are now. That is really not a good place!

I don't want to stay where I am at either! I lay hold on books like Kat's and David's because I desire that kind of walk. I'm not walking in it and I want to. I want more! Revelations like these are intended to inspire the church to rise up and actually believe there is more. To believe our understanding of the Word can be more. That we can know Him intimately. Where's the sale pitch?

I guess I should stop trying to splash the water in the faces to wake them up and just let them suffer the consequences of following after these demonic deceptions. Jesus said it would happen, 'Lord, Lord, did we not . . .'

These are not demonic deceptions. I really only speak for those who wold otherwise be blessed. Read the book for yourself. Judge it by the fruits in your spirit, not the suspicions of those who would judge carnally.

I tell you there are many well meaning people on this forum calling themselves "believers" who work as the enemies of Christ. They oppose the blessing God desires for His own. They are trying to "protect" us from what God is telling us. That is the same thing the Pharisees did to "protect" the Jews from embracing their violation of their understanding of the scripture. Does anyone really want to be of this company?

When it comes to the likes of Kerr and this Taylor chappie, I am staggered that there are many who can be so easily conned &#8211; and sadly there are many who even despise the term &#8216;discernment&#8217;!

What is so said is that people hang out here on this forum and freely make judgments against anointed believers and their testimonies, "warning" people against receiving them and using words like "discernment" to justify violating the royal law of love. To diss God's own family and to resist the Spirit of God. They absolutely terrify me.

It reminds me of the scripture where it talks about spots on your love feast. People you've got to change this around and not reap the intake of what flows so freely outwardly. That is the fruit of the judgment of God's house.

It's one thing to not be convinced. You might even suggest your reasons. But when you follow it up when final judgments accusing them of being deceivers and charlatans (you become that very thing).

You erase all doubt as to the origin of this "discernment". You actually promote the very thing you're dissing because the darkness is so evident. I really feel sorry for the depth of this blindness and the ease that it hangs out at this place of edification.

I still think that I can detect a little bit of a skeptical attitude towards visions in your post. My question to you would be when and on what basis would a vision be acceptable ?

No kidding! It must be because of the translation of this verse. God gives visions to His people just like He did in the Bible. This justifies having them. It does not mean that people are not out there deceiving and we do judge EVERYTHING we hear. But it is not the standard by which we weigh, and our knowledge of the Word is only a very small part.

 

[lismore]

A friend of mine gave me a copy of it to read a while ago; since then its just been sitting in my room unread. I'm kind of cautious about it, it sounds a bit dodgy, but I'm not 100% sure.

Many people who have read that book say Jesus has appeared to them in person afterwards.

What I was thinking was, why do I have to read some book to have an appearence from Jesus? And why can't I just read my Bible and have an appearence from Jesus?

It all seems a bit confusing; and I keep on thinking about it; should I read it or not.

Anyone here read that book?

Don't know the book, but I know two people who have met the Lord face to face. One lady who had a hard life, was going to commit suicide by gassing herself, the Lord appeared to her and stopped her killing herself. Another is an ex- muslim lady, the first known believer in her country. The Lord appeared to her in her bedroom.

So it does happen.

 

[Yitzchak]

I did take the time just now to look up David E Taylor and watch a few short videos. Just enough to get a first impression of his ministry.

One observation that made me chuckle to myself was the tendency of some to make up numbers. If they do not know the actual statistic for something , they just make up an estimate.

Anyway , in the video that I watched , He is talking about God moving at the speed of light. Now the basic idea is right , I think. God is not confined to time and space like we are. So he is obviously trying to communicate this idea that God sometimes does things very quickly and in a way that we cannot see. Kind of a spin on the verse that says the Spirit is like the wind. We see the effects of it but cannot see the wind. Just because we cannot see Him does not mean that he is not here and at work. A sound concept , but told in an odd way...

The part that made me chuckle was the American tendency that shows through when he talks about the speed of light. He says that

light speed is about , almost 200 and some thousand miles an hour. Do you know how fast that is ?

Obviously he cannot remember the actual speed of light so he takes a guess at it. An estimate....Nothing wrong in that... But it made me chuckle to myself.




So then I watched another video. This one comes from his website and shows a cloud formation in the sky over New Brunswick. The caption beside the video on his website says this....

The Father God Appears Openly In Front of Millions
in New Brunswick, Canada!

Apostle Taylor was in a major conference in Providence, Rhode Island when three leaders from Canada approached him after hearing his testimony about how God has been coming down in every region that he is sent to. He told them that he would love to come and that God said He would go before him! Everyone agreed to the wonderful news and just three days later God appeared openly before millions in Canada!

Now I happen to live in New Brunswick which is why the video caught my attention and I thought I would look it up.

But here is the numbers thing again....The total Population of New Brunswick is around 750,000 people. Aside from a few cities , it is a very rural area with a lot of very small towns. So if every single person in New Brunswick witnessed this cloud formation, which seems doubtful since it only lasted a few minutes and was part of a storm that hit only a small part of the Province. Anyway, if the whole province somehow saw it, then it would be around 750,000 people.

Face in the clouds before a storm in Grand Falls New Brunswick - YouTube

I did a little digging and the video was shot in Grand Falls , New Brunswick which has an official population of 5,706. It is a remote area......The Toronto Star ran a story so I guess it did make news and maybe millions watched the video.....

Video: Ghostly cloud faces appear over New Brunswick | Toronto Star

Anyway , I got a chuckle out of the vague way of handling the numbers. I could see the appeal. This stuff seems interesting , at least. He does have a good delivery in his speaking style....


.

 

[Alive_Again]

What I was thinking was, why do I have to read some book to have an appearence from Jesus? And why can't I just read my Bible and have an appearence from Jesus?

You don't. If you read the book though (and get a witness to it) then you'll have the promise in your spirit. If you don't have a promise, you probably won't have an expectation. Also, in the book he is trying to light you on fire so that you can. Can you imagine what would happen if Jesus appeared to many of us at certain times. He'd really get on our case! We want to be at a place in our lives where we can be blessed in this way. Maybe that's why it is important to be led to the book. Suffice it to say that if your walk was right and it was that time and season and you had a promise of a visitation in your spirit, it would happen regardless of any book.

Our walk does not depend on some book, however He does inspire certain people to write certain things which He quickens; and having the seed in your heart makes you (one day at least) to be ripe for a harvest.

 

[jamadan]

This statement I can agree with....It is your wild and somewhat random conclusions on the details that I find fault with.....

Sounds like the precise description of the gift of discerning of spirits in operation. "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” The Spirit has shown me much and I sense His leading to provide warnings, so that on That Day, no one can say they were not warned, even if they choose to ignore it. I was reminded of that today. Not to get caught up in trying to convince, but to simply state what the Spirit tells me and let Him use it to speak to those with ears to hear. It may come across as random and wild, but it basically cuts to the root.

Reminds me of the time years ago when I woke up on Sunday morning in pain and nauseous thinking I had a stomach bug, but after several hours of lying on the bathroom floor feeling like I just needed to empty my stomach, but couldn't, I decided to call the doc. In less than a minute, he said get to the ED, I had kidney stones. I couldn't begin to understand what he was talking about . . . I had to vomit, not pass stones. I asked what made him come to the wild conclusion. He started listing the symptoms concluding with 'and you sound like a woman in labor with your panting'. I thought he was way off base, but low and behold he was on the money. He was so experienced, he recognized the symptoms and came to the correct conclusion that the xray would have confirmed an hour later had I not passed the stone moments before hopping up on the xray table. I hugged my wife in appreciation for the 3 boys she brought into the world having gone through the closest thing a man can to approximate that experience

I am on a ministry team that weekly works healing and deliverance in public settings at a large hotel in our city. I've found that the more I operate in this setting, the faster the Lord speaks to me about the nature of what I'm dealing with. I often have an instantaneous sense now for when the enemy is present. Same thing happens on here. As I'm reading things, I get an immediate sense for it from the Spirit. I don't always have the details down as I'm still learning to listen and discern with clarity in this gift, but I know the general sense very quickly. I can say with very strong confidence that the majority of the manifestations like the heavenly visits, feathers, gems, dust, etc are the product of human deception. But some, a few who have genuinely entertained angels of lights, are actually preternatural manifestations (in other words, demonic).

 

[Life Warrior]

Don't know the book, but I know two people who have met the Lord face to face. One lady who had a hard life, was going to commit suicide by gassing herself, the Lord appeared to her and stopped her killing herself. Another is an ex- muslim lady, the first known believer in her country. The Lord appeared to her in her bedroom.

So it does happen.

Thanks for your testimony.
And yes, I have read many accounts of muslims having Jesus appear to them and save them.

 

[Life Warrior]

I am on a ministry team that weekly works healing and deliverance in public settings at a large hotel in our city. I've found that the more I operate in this setting, the faster the Lord speaks to me about the nature of what I'm dealing with. I often have an instantaneous sense now for when the enemy is present. Same thing happens on here. As I'm reading things, I get an immediate sense for it from the Spirit. I don't always have the details down as I'm still learning to listen and discern with clarity in this gift, but I know the general sense very quickly. I can say with very strong confidence that the majority of the manifestations like the heavenly visits, feathers, gems, dust, etc are the product of human deception. But some, a few who have genuinely entertained angels of lights, are actually preternatural manifestations (in other words, demonic).

Ok, so has the Holy Spirit told you that David Taylor is a false teacher/prophet? And have you actually read any of his books or not?

 

[Life Warrior]

I did take the time just now to look up David E Taylor and watch a few short videos. Just enough to get a first impression of his ministry.
...

So then I watched another video. This one comes from his website and shows a cloud formation in the sky over New Brunswick.

When I watched that cloud video last year it seemed extremely dodgy. I'm realy not sure that was a genuine miracle from God or not. Strange also that David uses it as proof for his ministry.

There was another upload of that video, but the title was something about the god Zeus. Also, searching on youtube, there is hundreds of videos claiming to be God's face in the clouds.

 

[whatfor]

would be interested to hear what you experience after reading the book.

 

[Yitzchak]

When I watched that cloud video last year it seemed extremely dodgy. I'm realy not sure that was a genuine miracle from God or not. Strange also that David uses it as proof for his ministry.

There was another upload of that video, but the title was something about the god Zeus. Also, searching on youtube, there is hundreds of videos claiming to be God's face in the clouds.

I watched the video and to me it was inconclusive....A cloud formation that kind of looks like a face over a small town in the middle of no where does not seem to me to be a sign. But on the other side of the issue , it did make the news and has been seen by a lot of people on the internet. So it did end up getting a lot of attention. So in that way , it did draw a lot of people's attention to think about spiritual things.

 

[Life Warrior]

would be interested to hear what you experience after reading the book.

I finished reading it. So far nothing has happened.

If/when something happens, I will post it on christian forums.