harry potter

[Jazzcat]

More stuff to chew on.... another article that was not written by me.



I was eager to get to Hogwarts first because I like what they learned there and I want to be a witch.-Gioia, age 10

I like the third book because here [Harry] meets his godfather and Professor Lupin, a really cool guy [This really "cool guy" is a shape-shifter who turns into a werewolf]...
- Harry, age 7

The Harry Potter novels have created a new idol for millions of children around the world.* To some of them the fictional Harry seems almost real.* But concern is growing among some Christian segments that the Potter series, replete with lessons in practical witchcraft, is opening a door to an occult reality for the world's children.* Other Christian leaders deny such danger, but J.K. Rowling, the author who created Harry Potter, admits it is actually happening.

In a Newsweek interview she said, "I get letters from children addressed to Professor Dumbledore [headmaster at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the books], and it's not a joke, begging to be let into Hogwarts, and some of them are really sad.* Because they want it to be true so badly they've convinced themselves it's true."

Children everywhere love supernatural thrills, mystical stories, fairy tales and legends; e.g., Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, Grimm's Fairy Tales, etc. But Harry Potter's birthplace, Great Britain, is a wonderland of options for exploring practical witchcraft, and plenty of youth are catching Harry's occult vision. Two British reports on this phenomenon reveal that popular forms of occult entertainment "have fueled a rapidly growing interest in witchcraft among children."

Great Britain's Pagan Federation is pleased.* Although it refuses to admit members under age 18, "it deals with an average of 100 inquiries a month from youngsters who want to become witches, and claims it has occasionally been 'swamped' with calls."* Pagan Federation media officer, Andy Norfolk, explains, "Every time an article on witchcraft or paganism appears, we have a huge surge in calls, mostly from young girls."

John Buckeridge, editor of the British Christian magazine Youthwork, is worried. Unlike many U.S. church leaders, who give Potter novels the thumbs up, he foresees serious danger ahead.* "The growing number of books and TV shows like Harry Potter and Sabrina the Teenage Witch encourage an interest in magic as harmless fun... However, for some young people it could fuel a fascination that leads to dangerous dabbling with occult powers.* So what starts out as spooks and spells can lead to psychological and spiritual damage."

A More "Noble" Religion?

It's not surprising that the timeless craving for power and control through magic has soared with the decline of Christian influence and the spread of pagan television shows and books.

The trend has been increasing ever since the 1960s initiated a rejection of traditional values and an interest in eastern religions.* This was followed a decade or so later with the flowering of the New Age movement.* These transitions actually indicated society's discontent with a spiritually vacant Secular Humanism and its need for a more "religious" paradigm, but definitely without the "old" Christian worldview and restraints.

Almost a decade ago, a Wiccan student wrote an article about witchcraft for The Talon, her high school newspaper.* Leah Mowery based her report on interviews with several student witches at Los Altos High School in California. Her article boasted that Wicca was more tolerant than traditional beliefs and taught people to take better care of the environment and helped people to empower themselves.* It used only "good" magic.

Soon afterwards, a Christian student, also an editor for The Talon, asked if he could write about Young Life, a Christian group active on their campus.* "No," was the response, "because witchcraft is underexposed in our society and Christianity is overexposed."* Translation: Witches could give public testimonies about the benefits of their religion, but Christians were no longer allowed to express their faith and testimonies.

With assistance from television, books, and movies, Christianity's reputation has been badly tarnished.* The faith has been blamed for hatred, conflict, wars and environmental abuse, and the criticism has inspired countless "Christian" leaders to "re-imagine" their faith in order to embrace a more tolerant view toward the world's fast-growing fascination with pagan practices.

According to proponents of the new pagan revival, Christianity simply doesn't fit any more.* The Christian Church has failed to provide "the right degree of spirituality for young people." In contrast, paganism involves "direct communication with the divine."

From the Biblical perspective, this viewpoint is tragically wrong, but it matters little to the masses seeking spiritual power without Biblical accountability.

 

[PaladinValer]

Paladin: On the "Fallacy of the Slippery Slope" theory, I have a quote from a little girl to post:

Nice use of The Onion as a valid sorce! That one is notorius...

I also have a question for you, Paladin: How much do you know about the real life occult?

Honestly, quite a bit. Being a history major (I have my BA) with a love of anthropology and religious studies (I have a minor), I know a bit of the cultural native practices of many different cultures. None of them have folks flying on broomstickles and using little twigs to cast spells made up of a Latin word or two.

Edit: Mind actually posting something original instead of the old copy-paste?

 

[Jazzcat]

I think this argument also boils down to the fact that people, mere people, desire power for different reasons. Some have been hurt in the past by others in positions of power, and their motives for gaining power are to protect themselves from being hurt again since they are now the ones with others under their thumbs. Others want to take out revenge on those "beneath" them.

For those with the viewpoint that this behavior is fine and Biblical and virtuous, no, you will never see anything wrong with Harry Potter.

 

[Jazzcat]

I did already, Paladin; go back to page two and there you will find all original stuff unless otherwise marked.

God bless you all on your search for truth.
Blessings,
Jazzcat

 

[PaladinValer]

I think this argument also boils down to the fact that people, mere people, desire power for different reasons.

Oh?

Some have been hurt in the past by others in positions of power, and their motives for gaining power are to protect themselves from being hurt again since they are now the ones with others under their thumbs. Others want to take out revenge on those "beneath" them.

Oddly enough, this is depicted as negative also in Harry Potter. Read some of Dumbledore's dialogue...

For those with the viewpoint that this behavior is fine and Biblical and virtuous, no, you will never see anything wrong with Harry Potter.

Edit: You are supposed to cite everything you post that isn't originally of you. Not doing so is plagarism, which is, not only in academic circles condemned (and also liable to lawsuits in most countries), but not permissable by CF rules.

Edit 2: Oh, and you're dead wrong about Arwen not using magic in Lord of the Rings. The very fact that she is an elf means she is born with inherent abilities, which she does use in both films and books.

 

[Jazzcat]

I can speak as a parent and former witch to explain why I will never allow my children to read or watch Harry Potter. It's pretty simple, Harry Potter teaches and promotes magic which is against the Word of God.

You know how the bible tells us the path is narrow? That means in order to walk in the Lord we must make some tough decisions to do the right thing, which is not easy. But we also know how great our reward is. Satan offers an incredibly wide path that allows for just about anything and his way is really easy to follow. Once we start dabbling in little things, like watching questionable movies or reading books we're not supposed to read we start thinking well if this is ok, than maybe I can handle a little more... Before you know it, you've strayed from your walk.

I know it seems silly, to avoid a book. But that's how the enemy starts, with little things. Believe me, been there, wrecked that! And if my mom only told me not to do half the things I did when I was younger...

One last word: What really matters in this life is relationship with the Lord. If something hinders it, throw it away! If it will hinder others, DOUBLE throw it away! I read this post (#3) and it rends my heart. I hear "And if my mom had only told me not to do half the things I did when I was younger..." and that is all the reason I need to stay away from this stuff myself, and to advise others not to mess with it either.

This one woman's remorse is more than enough for me.

Blessings,
Jazzcat

 

[ZACTAK]

Greetings again, Steelers.

There are indeed a number of documented reports of perfectly good children suddenly developing rebellious tendancies soon after getting involved with Harry Potter.

When confronted with the violence, rebellion, etc. in the book, Rowling answers that she did not write the book for children!



So it's a struggle against good and evil. But let me bring up a game. A fantasy game called Werewolf: The Apocalypse, a roleplaying game, has this description in the wikipedia.com encyclopedia: A prime example of this outlook can be seen in the role-playing game Werewolf: The Apocalypse in which players roleplay various werewolf characters who work on behalf of Gaia against the destructive supernatural spirit named Wyrm, who represents the forces of destructive industrialization and pollution.

Just because it is a "struggle against Good and Evil" does not canonize it. In this werewolf game, you have to become a werewolf in order to defeat evil, thus making the werewolf the "good" in the war against good and evil. The only origins for werewolves were never Christian, but rather all associated with satan and satanic rituals. For more hair-raising reading on werewolves, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf

Speaking of which, there is one other footnote on that very page about werewolves and Harry Potter, which I will post here:

J.K. Rowling uses a werewolf named Remus Lupin in her Harry Potter series as, ironically enough, the only competent Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, despite the obvious mistrust that being a werewolf handicaps him with.

Who isn't going to empathize with the poor big bad werewolf and feel sorry for him? When you feel sorry for something, you never think of it as an enemy. The devil would like nothing more than to play on our sympathies. This opens us up to a vulnerability to him, and the devil will take every little bit he can.

I have also read the book "A Child Called It." That is not fiction, or a book that those who want to escape reality for awhile delve into. That book is heavy and rather a reality check about some horrors that truly take place in this world. Was David's mother cruel and unreasonably mean to her son? Yes she was. Should he have disobeyed her? The answer, in this case, is yes.

But are most parents like Dave's mom? The reason that book is so popular is because it is such a shock; such an outrageous departure from the norm; a terrible crime against humanity. The answer, then, is no. Parents are, generally speaking, completely deserving of respect and honor. Those that aren't are few and far between.
In Harry Potter, the heroes and heroines also champion lying and putting spells on anyone who thwarts them. That is not typical virtuous behavior! All those who gain power are bound to misuse it in some way, and that is what happens to Harry and his schoolmates.

Hey Jazzcat . If there are documented reports to show that children have rebellious tendencies as a result of reading Harry Potter, could you please provide me with some sources to back this up, these sources must also show that these books are different from others in causing this. Because we all know there are going to be those select few who will go out and do this whether they read a book on police officers, or a book on robbers, or a book or movie on anything else. I personally do not see that it is causing problems in which we need to worry about, or that it is a widespread problem.

From interviews that I have seen, she did not write the books for children, she wrote them for herself.

To me, I believe a game is a game. People might play that, but it is not going to hurt their walk with the Lord. I have played a game called Mafia, a fantasy/role playing game in which there are 2 people who go around and "kill" someone in the community. These 2 people are the Mafia. There then is a police officer, or investigator depending on what version someone plays, they try to find out who did it. The rest of the people playing are just regular citizens of the town. No one knows who the mafia is and who the investigator is. People begin throwing out accusations of who they think did it and why. The people who have been chosen to be the possible Mafia then have to defend themselves. The towns people vote on who it is, and whomever is chosen is killed. The object of the game is to get the Mafia out of the town and stop the murders. This game is very similar to the game you are talking about with werewolves as it talks about killing people. But this game has not effected my walk with God, nor the people around me as they are all religious too. You can construe it to be against the Bible, but it is just as harmless as anything else.

The Bible is all about a struggle between good and evil, and many children might have difficulty understanding what good and evil is. Reading Harry Potter might help them to realize what God is going through in regards to His battles with good and evil. But I brought up the good and evil argument because if you go back to things that I said over the past 24 or so hours, you will notice that I mentioned Snow White and all those things how there is magic and things involved in those. Kaylee came back with the argument that all those books are when good triumphs over evil... soo she is justifying these books because of that. What about the sacrafice and courage shown in Harry Potter those are also good attributes that can be taught to children with the walk with God. They can understand that sometimes a person needs to sacrafice things.

A made up werewolf does not necessarily mean it is evil... it is just that, made up, created in the eyes of the author.
"A Child Called It," is not fiction this is true, but someone who reads it might get the same effect you are saying someone reading Harry Potter might have. A child reads that book and sees that his mother slapped him (I know it is more than just that) but they might want to rebel against their mom or dad when they are doing a justified tap on the butt. Even though "A Child Called It" is a non-fiction book, if everything was taken out to show this story was true, such as the things from the other people's perspective at the end of the book, then this story could be read as fictional, if that makes any sense. Although reading a non-fiction book has more meaning to it, it might not have any less of an affect on someone else reading it. When I read the book, I got out of it what I did, and when you read it you got what you did out of it. They might have been two different things.

Where in the Bible does it say we can disobey our parents if they do these things to us? They don't. The Ten commandments say 'Honor thy mother and thy father' they do not say 'honor thy mother and they father, unless this this and this happens.'

There are millions of parents out there just in the United States alone that are like Dave's mom, and that really scares me. This might be a little cliche considering I already mentioned this once, but looking at the whole realm of things, looking at child abuse, looking at the rise in crime, and divorce rates, among many other things, should we be wasting our time debating about Harry Potter, a harmless book meant for entertainment? So many people are wasting their time on worrying about these books when they are for entertainment, they are not against the Bible and you have shown me no proof to say otherwise. Wouldn't our time and energy be better spent figuring out ways to prevent child abuse or other trivial problems we face today?

You might ask yourself why if I say this, am I debating Harry Potter, but I am actually writing a paper and doing much research on ways to prevent child abuse for a class of mine. I am very openminded, but from this entire thread I have not seen one shred of evidence to prove to me that this goes against Christianity...

 

[PaladinValer]

One last word: What really matters in this life is relationship with the Lord. If something hinders it, throw it away! If it will hinder others, DOUBLE throw it away! I read this post (#3) and it rends my heart. I hear "And if my mom had only told me not to do half the things I did when I was younger..." and that is all the reason I need to stay away from this stuff myself, and to advise others not to mess with it either.

This one woman's remorse is more than enough for me.

1. The Vatican Church would disagree with your assesment about a "relationship;' it goes far deeper than that.
2. Fallacy of Hasty Generalization. One one-lined post doesn't prove anything.
3. Just because you fear it affecting you doesn't mean you are everyone. And just because some people have problems with it (either out of fear or otherwise) doesn't mean everyone will. That too is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

 

[Kaylee4Christ]

Look, I may be young, and I may be incredibly naive, but I am not stupid. Harry is a wizard, is he not? And he goes to Hogwarts, does he not? Wizards are male versions of witches, the word "witch" is in witchcraft. When has witchcraft EVER been good?!?!?!?! Never! The Bible advises us against it, even though it's "just" a book and its "just" a movie, doesn't mean it is harmless.

The trick is to resist the temptation. It may seem like "Oh it'll be perfectly fine if I read this", but no. Remember the story in the Bible where Jesus goes into the desert and fasts for 40 days and 40 nights?! Satan comes onto the scene "Hey, you're God, why don't you just turn that rock over there into food for yourself?" Jesus resists the temptation by quoting the Bible. The second time, Jesus is standing on top of a Temple. Satan says "Hey, why don't you jump off of the building? You're God, your angels will come down and sweep you up into safety." Once again, Jesus resisted and quoted the Bible. Third time, Jesus was standing on top of a mountain, and Satan said "If you bow down to me, I'll give you all this land! That huge tree over there? Yours! That stream? Yours!" and Jesus resisted. He said "Go away". That is how we, as sinners need to be. Resist the temptation!

Kaylee

 

[PaladinValer]

Look, I may be young, and I may be incredibly naive, but I am not stupid. Harry is a wizard, is he not? And he goes to Hogwarts, does he not? Wizards are male versions of witches, the word "witch" is in witchcraft. When has witchcraft EVER been good?!?!?!?! Never! The Bible advises us against it, even though it's "just" a book and its "just" a movie, doesn't mean it is harmless.

The problem is this: you are creating a false connection between the type of magic that is condemned with fantasy "magic" which isn't real. This is called "Fallacy of Equivocation;" you are "equivocating" or "equalling" things that are not the same.

First off, reread my essay. It gives a blow-by-blow analysis of all the condemnations, using the Hebrew originals, with the "magic" in Harry Potter. Nothing in the books or films matches what is condemned, as what is condemned are those magical practices of Pagans. In other words, Pagan sorcery is what is condemned because it isn't of God's blessing. Not all "magical" arts are automatically condemned; the Jews themselves divined the Will of God through Seers, prophets, and devices, without any sort of Divine Wrath. There is then an obvious difference between the two forms.

In addition, the characters in the books and films do not learn the ability to cast spells; they are born with the ability (or at least most characters are; those who don't are called "Muggles" which are your common everyday folk like you and I). This is, of course, not actually possible in the real world, but it is in fantasies.

Lastly, take a close look at the "magic" they practice. It involes using a stick with a little bit of a "magical" beast in it (usually a hair from a unicorn, a pheonix, etc) and saying a word or phrase in the Latin language. These "spells" not only don't work, but never existed ever in any sort of any occultic practice in any civilization anywhere on Earth in human history.

There is no denying therefore that the "witchcraft" in Harry Potter is nothing more than one woman's imagination, period.

The trick is to resist the temptation. It may seem like "Oh it'll be perfectly fine if I read this", but no. Remember the story in the Bible where Jesus goes into the desert and fasts for 40 days and 40 nights?! Satan comes onto the scene "Hey, you're God, why don't you just turn that rock over there into food for yourself?" Jesus resists the temptation by quoting the Bible. The second time, Jesus is standing on top of a Temple. Satan says "Hey, why don't you jump off of the building? You're God, your angels will come down and sweep you up into safety." Once again, Jesus resisted and quoted the Bible. Third time, Jesus was standing on top of a mountain, and Satan said "If you bow down to me, I'll give you all this land! That huge tree over there? Yours! That stream? Yours!" and Jesus resisted. He said "Go away". That is how we, as sinners need to be. Resist the temptation!

1. Again, you are equivocating two things that are not similar. As that is the basis of your argument, it makes everything else you say make no logical sense and is therefore invalid.
2. You are also using another invalid argument here. It is called the "Fallacy of Slippery Slope." It basically says "If X, therefore Y" without any substantial proof. There has never been a case (except if you want to use bogus news sources like The Onion which has been used before. For you all to know, The Onion is a joke website that pokes fun at various events; it isn't any bit real, factual, or true) of a child converting to a Pagan faith from Christianity due simply by reading or watching the books or films; never. You'd have to prove that doing so what the only reason for the conversion, and most simply assume (which is yet another illogical argument, called "Fallacy of Hasty Generalization") without proof.
3. Young children do something what psychologists called "imaginary play." It is pretending to be something they are not in order to learn about and interact with the world around them. It is a necessary part of all children's growth mentally and intellectually; as they live in a world of make believe, they can learn things about the world in which they live. It is basically a form of "role-playing," except only the child participates. I myself use this technique; I have something called Asperger's Syndrome, which is a disability which makes it sometimes difficult for me to interact with my peers. Through role-playing, I can take what I've learn in the real world and "practice" it in my imagination. Thanks to that, I've gone from having very few friends to having a large group of them. The point? Kids actually do know the difference between fantasy and reality because of their use of imaginary play. Every kid knows that their "imaginary friend" isn't actually real psychologically. They "use" their "friend" to practice their social skills in the same way I use my role-playing techniques; it is the same thing.

 

[Highway of Life]

Hello Brothers and Sisters!

I just had a quick question.

If Harry Potter is just an innocent book, why are some defending it so harshly? Does it have something that we need to survive?

Anything that somebody presents evidence and biblical support for as being possibly evil, I will not engage in the activity, I will shy away from it. Especially if it is an activity that I don't need in my daily life. There are plenty of Christian books out there that I can read, I don't want to tip-toe on the edge of a cliff if somebody is warning me that I might fall.

Thanks everyone!
Your Brother in Christ,
Highway of Life

 

[PaladinValer]

I just had a quick question.

If Harry Potter is just an innocent book, why are some defending it so harshly? Does it have something that we need to survive?

Fallacy of Begging the Question and also Fallacy of Straw Man.

The reason why people are defending it is because the arguments attacking it are illogical and invalid. Should Christians spread lies?

Anything that somebody presents evidence and biblical support for as being possibly evil, I will not engage in the activity, I will shy away from it.

Even when such "evidence" is linguistically unfounded (as I showed)?

Especially if it is an activity that I don't need in my daily life. There are plenty of Christian books out there that I can read, I don't want to tip-toe on the edge of a cliff if somebody is warning me that I might fall.

Fallacy of Slippery Slope.

If people have a problem with Harry Potter, then that is their preorogative. But if people want to argue against it, at least they can do is state a cohesively valid argument without using logical fallacies.

 

[Highway of Life]

Paladin!

Do you mean prerogative?
To eschew from a conceivable threat is not heretical.
Particularly if several individuals have conferred the possibility of nefariousness, and their premise is based on Scripture.

It is always wise to error on the side of the Gospel, and shy away from potential evil. We are responsible for our actions that we have learned from truths and warnings about such things. Do not condemn truth.

Highway of Life

 

[PaladinValer]

Do you mean prerogative?

Yep.

To eschew from a conceivable threat is not heretical.

Heretical? When did I ever say it was heretical? What I said was this:

"If people have a problem with Harry Potter, then that is their preorogative. But if people want to argue against it, at least they can do is state a cohesively valid argument without using logical fallacies."

Particularly if several individuals have conferred the possibility of nefariousness, and their premise is based on Scripture.

I've already disproven that the "witchcraft' in Harry Potter is the type that is condemned. Stop taking things by remote from cruddy English translations (even my own beloved NRSV doesn't do it justice) and read it as it is written with a understanding of Hebrew linguistics, theology, and Pagan theology and culture. These are key if you want to understand what those passages actually say, and no literalist reading from English will get you there.

It is always wise to error on the side of the Gospel, and shy away from potential evil. We are responsible for our actions that we have learned from truths and warnings about such things. Do not condemn truth.

1. I never condemned truth. I've in fact implied every single time that any sort of not-of-God "magical" act is forbidden.
2. It is impossible to err on the side of the Gospel if one doesn't know how to read it properly. As a Vatican Catholic, you should be fully aware of the importance of how the ECFs and the Ecumenical Councils read and interpreted the Holy Bible. St. Augustine of Hippo, above all, was asked by The Church to come up with a "rule" on how to read the Bible faithfully, reasonably, and honestly. The result was his amazing book, On Christian Teaching, which is the basis of the Vatican Catholic Church's understanding on how to read the Holy Bible (it is also how we Anglicans also officially are supposed to read it, as our "credo" of "Scripture, Tradition, Reason" is supported directly in this book!). I would highly suggest you both read that book as well as the works of other ECFs if you want to see how they would have read these passages, but most especially read of the councils and synods. Remember that these men have been empowered by the Holy Spirit just as you and I, and that orthodox Christianity has always believed that revelation comes to humble ears in groups, in order to make sure Montanism (a real heresy) was avoided.

 

[Highway of Life]

Thank you Paladin. You have proven my point all the more.

Highway of Life

 

[PaladinValer]

Non-argument.

In which case, I will repeat:

"If people have a problem with Harry Potter, then that is their preorogative. But if people want to argue against it, at least they can do is state a cohesively valid argument without using logical fallacies."

This is what the "pro-Potters" are about. We aren't defending an ideology but we are defending a series of books and films from false accusations that are little more than one illogical statement after another. Christians are not supposed to spread lies, once given the facts. If they wish to continue lying, then it is the job of other Christians, as attested in both Scripture and Tradition, to point it out. And if they wish to exhibit pride, then that's their choice.

 

[Highway of Life]

Simple, isn't it?
It's getting more obvious by the minute.

Blessings,
Highway

 

[PaladinValer]

If you wish to state "it" (and not beat around the bush), then do so.

The thread poses a question to which people from various sides are giving their opinions on and then defending them. That's right; both sides. If you do not wish to participate, or if you cannot give a logical argument, then do not disrupt those who are participating. That's being polite. Just because a person don't like or agree with one side or another doesn't give anyone the right to start making sarcastic comments.

And if you to not like in particular my style of logical debating, by all means take it to me, the person, and not in public circles. I find it personally insulting that you think this whole argument rests on my style of debate (which is also a logical fallacy; this time of the Fallacy of Style over Substance) when it is what it says, not how it says it, is up to discussion. The same goes for any other post.

 

[Highway of Life]

What's the point in debating with someone if they are not searching for truth, even though many have brought the truth to the table.

No, there is nothing to debate.

Highway of Life

 

[PaladinValer]

What's the point in debating with someone if they are not searching for truth, even though many have brought the truth to the table.

Nice ad hom attack towards me and towards the other Pro-Potters here. Just because we disagree and show how every current anti-Potter is illogically argument, we are not "searching for truth"? With all due respect, that's extremely pretty.

Truth is, as I said, you need to go to the original languages and to learn exactly the contexts of the oft-sited passages. I did that, and posted exactly that. If you disagree, then that's fine, but you need to give a counter that makes valid sense explaining a possible variant position.

No, there is nothing to debate.

Yes, there is a debate here. If folks don't like the debate, then they needn't post if they find it so detestible.