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I think there are a number of issues involved in this discussion...
Probably, back then..
However, again, this is not about burning anyone.. it is only opening peoples eyes to the subtle introduction of satanic practices and how they are presented to children...
The whole Harry Potter is not bad because is fiction excuse does not work. Jesus condemned the mind sin of lust (Which is fantasy) in Matthew 5:28-30. We are told to cast down imaginations and lead every thought captive in obedience to Christ Jesus in 2 Corinthians 10:5. Harry Potter is the glorification of witchcraft. God condemned witchcraft heavily in the Old Testament. To think about something sinful in a fantasy way does not make it any less sinful. Is cartoon porn okay? Surely not. Just because it is pure fantasy does not undo the fact that sin is being pushed or communicated upon the viewer. It's wrong. Harry Potter is a promotion of witchcraft in a fantasy setting.
When looking at this from an Evangelical perspective the primary issue is simply whether the witchcraft portrayed and promoted in Harry Potter is sinful. No one ever talks about it, but that's the issue.
I agree.. But, my point was how someone will weasel in the political crap in the US, about Trump.. in any thread... no matter how far off topic.
Characters like Grima Wormtongue and Petyr Baelish corrupt a truthful message in their fictional/fantasy world. So IYO that's one warped way of looking at sorcery and witchcraft? 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Maybe it's just not actually seeing what the moral of the story is when using a fictional fantasy genre to teach a lesson.Sorry, IMO that's one warped way of looking at a series about sorcery and witchcraft. Maybe it's just me.
I don't know how the Harry Potter stories pan out, or all that happens in them so I can't say a lot more. It seem a lot like willpower versus willpower with magic as an instrument in the Harry Potter books, Harry's will and cleverness versus that of other magicians.
By way of comparison I'd suggest reading That Hideous Strength and the episode when Merlin who has been re-awakened offers to perform some earth magic against the 'scientists' of Belbury. Ransom rebukes him and says in this age it would be utterly unlawful, then he tells Merlin it never was very lawful, even in Merlin's own day. If Merlin used earth magic against Belbury, Ransom tells him "his weapon would break in his hands..." I think that's the right sort of portrayal of things. Ransom tells him its not going to be by might (as in a physical attack), nor by occult power (spells, or crystal balls or potions etc.) that The Hideous Strength will be overcome, but by heavenly power.
porn is totally different. Porn is actually doing the sin. romans 14 is about having an appearance of idolatry or paganism but not actually doing it. They were starving, the meat was good to eat, but it had been sacrificed to idols. The church had a problem with it, but Jesus is not concerned about the outward but the heart. Same in the old testament, David was hungry so he ate the bread out of the temple. Again this was against jewish law, david could not even go in the temple at all. But again Jesus is not about religion or rules but about the heart. Porn is a heart issue. it's actually lusting. So that is wrong, so the two don't compare. Again this is the issue with romans 14...."I believe it talks about pagan things that are grey area's so you must prove that the people involved in both christmas and in watching of harry potter are actually DOING PAGANISM."
I think Ransom's objection is on point. Then in the end instead of traditional magic we see references to Adam's power over the beasts and God throwing down the Tower of Babel via language. Certainly Lewis' and Tolkien's positive portrayal of magic is much different from Rowling's technocratic approach, and both authors shy away from Simon Magus-esque magic.
I don't know that its a positive portrayal so much, its less to do with magic, as with self-will versus self-surrender in Tolkien. I think that's the fundamental distinction - the good (even though flawed) characters don't seek to bend reality to their own selfish ends, or at least learn the folly of attempting to do so.
The characters that use 'magic' such as Gandalf still act in harmony with the created order, he has to act in accord with the way things are. He is in fact one of the Maiar in the LOTR cosmos, he only takes the form of an old man.
In the real world dabbling in the occult is dangerous and sinful whether 'white' or 'black' magic.
Here's another article/review you might be interested in on the Potter books:
Harry Potter Review by John W - Pastoral Care Ministries
In the real world dabbling in the occult is dangerous and sinful whether 'white' or 'black' magic.
most if not all of disney's movies, not to mention almost all family friendly historical disney movies out the past thirty years involve talking animals which is not biblical, and a host of mystic viewpoints. One would need to boycott disney productions out right. Like I said I just watched decendants 2 with my family last night. And the princess was a bad witch that repented and turned into a good witch and became a dragon with magic and attacked a sea monster. None of our kids remotely showed an interest or curiosity into the magic arts. When you watch sleeping beauty you don't wonder how someone could cast a spell on the princess to be only kissed by true love. It simply doesn't happen. It's all fake and make believe. but it acts on fantasy and heroism which makes for a good family movie. In harry potter movies, it shows how you can be a good person in a bad environment. It endorses sacrifice, being a team, working together for a common goal and many many other positive character traits. and the average watcher comes walking away from the movie encouraged and edified. So the fruit is good. The Bible says to test all things for fruitfulness. However I do know that some have come out of the occult, and may have been into witchcraft in the past and granted, this movie may be too close to home for them. So for them or sensitive eyes I do not recommend watching such movies. I typically will watch a movie and go to google search and search "parental guide for harry potter." for example. And I will read to make sure there is no blood or gore, and that the language is not too intense, and that everyone keeps their clothes on. If those are all good I may watch a movie. Disney usually does well on parental reviews, after all they are usually G or PG.People root for Harry and his witchcraft buddies in the series. They use witchcraft to accomplish their supposed good goals to conquer the bad guys. You have to play along like witchcraft is okay in order to follow along with Harry and his witchcraft buddies. You have to imagine like witchcraft is okay or harmless in the fictional world you are watching. But you can no more change the sin of witchcraft than you can change the sin of fornication in a cartoon porn movie. All are pure fantasy, but the sins in them are both very real and condemned in the Bible. But of course, you do not want to see this.
The harry potter books were the first book series our ten year old actually read through. We tried to get him to read all sorts of stuff. So basically he was learning to read with this stuff. But I know that many christian ministries were worried about it when it came out, and I was on par with it. In fact not until recently did I start liking harry potter. To me it's no different than liking starwars, use of the new age force for good. Most sci fi action movies are new age, most disney movies deal with magic of some sorts. It just goes to show that things we don't understand, keep our interest when watching a movie. We don't fully comprehend the new age forces or the pagan magic. So a movie with those empowerments but taken in a positive light, or used for good....can create for some entertainment for the family. My son has ADD so he fell in love with harry potter and how he used his powers for good. No different than luke skywalker using his force for good. Are they christian based movies? Not so much. But they are not evil movies. Some of the movies are 'dark.' and have some scary moments for kids. My kids would hide under a blanket or run out of the room. But they know that these movies all end well. But the reason why I quoted romans 14 is that we learn to be sensitive to others convictions, bible highligher needs to realize some of us like harry potter, while some of us need to realize some (especially those who have come out of a history of witchcraft into Christianity), may not like harry potter. So the necessity to live in unity with all people. 'not to use our freedom to stumble another brother."here is 2nd half of guziks commentary as well as link to both above commentaries that are free online:
a. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? Probably, the use of both judge and show contempt is meant to have application to both the “strict” and the “free” individuals. In either case, the attitude is wrong because we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
i. The strict Christian found it easy to judge his brother, writing him off as an unspiritual meat-eater-compromiser. The free Christian found it easy to show contempt against his brother, regarding him as a uptight-legalistic-goody-good. Essentially, Paul’s answer is “Stop worrying about your brother. You have enough to answer for before Jesus.”
ii. The judgment seat of Christ: “This is the bema seat, equivalent to the judge’s seat in the Olympic Games. After each game, the winners came before the judge’s seat to receive crowns for first, second, and third places. Likewise, the Christian’s works will be tested by fire, and he’ll be rewarded for those which remain... The judgment seat of Christ is only concerned with a Christian’s rewards and position in the kingdom, not with his salvation.” (Smith)
b. Every knee shall bow: The quotation from Isaiah 45:23 emphasizes the fact that all will have to appear before God in humility, and give account of himself before God. If this is the case, we should let God deal with our brother.
6. (Rom 14:13) Summary: don’t make it an issue of judging, but don’t use your liberty to stumble another brother.
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
a. Let us not judge one another: In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus helped us to understand what this means – it means judging others according to a standard that we would not want to have applied to ourself.
i. This does not take away the need and the responsibility for admonishment (Romans 15:14) or rebuke (2 Timothy 4:2). When we admonish or rebuke, we do it over clear Scriptural principles, not over doubtful things. We may offer advice to others about doubtful things, but should never judge them.
b. Not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way: We might stumble or cause our brother to fall in two ways. We can discourage or beat them down through our legalism against them, or we can do it by enticing them to sin through an unwise use of our liberty.
B. Don’t stumble each other over doubtful things.
1. (Rom 14:14-15) Destroying a brother makes a privilege wrong.
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it isunclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
a. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself: Paul knew that there was nothing intrinsically unclean about meat that was not kosher or sacrificed to an idol. Yet there was nothing that could justify the destruction of a Christian brother over food.
i. Trapp on I know and am convinced: “Many, on the contrary, are persuaded before they know; and such will not be persuaded to know.”
b. You are no longer walking in love: The issue now is not my personal liberty; it is walking in love towards one whom Jesus loves and died for.
c. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died: If Jesus was willing to give up His life for the sake of that brother, I can certainly give up my steak dinner.
2. (Rom 14:16-18) Pursuing the higher call of the Kingdom of God.
Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
a. Do not let your good be spoken of as evil: Our liberty in Jesus and freedom from the law is good, but not if we use it to destroy another brother in Christ. If we do that, then it could rightly be spoken of as evil.
b. The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking: If we place food and drink before righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, then we are hopelessly out of touch with God’s priorities and His heart.
c. Acceptable to God and approved by men: Serving God with a heart for His righteousness and peace and joy is the kind of service that is acceptable in His sight, and will be approved by men.
3. (Rom 14:19-21) Use your liberty to build each other up, not to tear each other down.
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anythingby which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
a. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food: If eating or drinking something will stumble another brother, then we are not free to eat or drink in that circumstance. Even if we have the personal liberty, we do not have the liberty to stumble, offend, or weaken a brother.
b. All things indeed are pure: Paul will concede the point that there is nothing impure in the food itself; but he likewise insists that there is nothing pure in causing a brother to stumble.
c. Nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak: However, we shouldn’t think that Paul would permit this kind of heart to cater to someone’s legalism. Paul speaks about the stumbling of a sincere heart, not catering to the whims of someone’s legalism.
i. For example, when some Christians from a Jewish background were offended that Gentile believers were not circumcised, Paul didn’t cater to their legalistic demands.
4. (Rom 14:22-23) The concluding principle of faith.
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever isnot from faith is sin.
a. Do you have faith? If you have [strong] faith, and feel liberty to partake of certain things, praise God! But have your strong faith before God, not before a brother who will stumble.
b. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves: Not every Christian knows this happiness. There are things God may challenge us to give up, but we go on approving them in our life – thus we condemn ourselves. It may not be that the thing itself is clearly good or bad, but it is enough that God speaks to us about the matter.
i. Each of us must ask: “God what is there in my life hindering a closer walk with You? I want to know the happiness that comes from not condemning myself by what I approve in my life.” This takes faith, because we often cling to hindering things because we think they make us happy. Real happiness is found being closer and closer to Jesus, and by not being condemned by what we approve.
c. Whatever is not from faith is sin: Paul concludes with another principle by which we can judge “gray areas” – if we can’t do it in faith, then it is sin.
i. This is a wonderful check on our tendency to justify ourselves in the things we permit. If we are troubled by something, it likely isn’t of faithand likely is sin for us.
both of the above commentaries found free online here:
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Are you saying that we should not be weary of things associated with Wicca, witchcraft, and other satanic activity.. just because some mistaken people more than a century ago made huge mistakes?What you are focusing on is the results. The Salem trials wasn't just about burning people it was the whole accusation and superstition towards witchcraft. That sentence you made of "opening peoples eyes to satanic practices" is the same reasoning they had towards the people they where accusing.
Scripture's description of Aaron's staff and how very much it was the point to likewise produce a serpent that consumed the one Pharaoh's magicians produced should give make people think twice about what is being portrayed there.
The way I see it when describing that event as "God never used "magic". He used His all powerful ability." is similar to how fantasy/fictional villainous characters are portrayed in their genre of storytelling. Characters like Gríma Wormtongue and Petyr Baelish will distort and lead other characters astray.
I have to disagree with "weak good". In the bible God is always no match for the forces against Him.Sure, it is witchcraft and magic. However, I watch movies that have themes that are similar to biblical themes. In Star Wars and Harry Potter, a major theme is weak good over strong evil, which is throughout the Bible. However, Star Wars' Force is pantheistic. I substitute the true, 3-in-1 God of the Bible in place of the unbiblical ideas and can then watch them with praise for the true God in my mind.
People root for Harry and his witchcraft buddies in the series. They use witchcraft to accomplish their supposed good goals to conquer the bad guys. You have to play along like witchcraft is okay in order to follow along with Harry and his witchcraft buddies. You have to imagine like witchcraft is okay or harmless in the fictional world you are watching. But you can no more change the sin of witchcraft than you can change the sin of fornication in a cartoon porn movie. All are pure fantasy, but the sins in them are both very real and condemned in the Bible. But of course, you do not want to see this.
HP is trying to say that there is good and bad in witchcraft.. This is not the case.. however a very subtle lie that the enemy uses... All witchcraft is evil... None of it is of Christ.Characters like Grima Wormtongue and Petyr Baelish corrupt a truthful message in their fictional/fantasy world. So IYO that's one warped way of looking at sorcery and witchcraft? 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Maybe it's just not actually seeing what the moral of the story is when using a fictional fantasy genre to teach a lesson.
What does that have to do with it? The Bronze age? Children are children. Impressionable and sponges to what they hear, read and see.... We are the adults... we need to filter and educate them. Open their eyes to things of ungodly sources...Harry Potter is a work of fiction and we aren't Bronze Age people.
Are you saying that we should not be weary of things associated with Wicca, witchcraft, and other satanic activity.. just because some mistaken people more than a century ago made huge mistakes?
The whole "they were wrong, so you are" doesn't fly here.
People are simply waking people up to the reality of mainstream high profile global presentation that glorifies actions that God warned about.
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