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Harry Potter - Good or bad?
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Annabel Lee
Beware the Thought Police
Originally posted by Aussie_Tash
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.
And yes the bible is true
This is a fiction novel. A fantasy..not real life! No one is calling up the dead or practicing witchcraft or making their son or daughter pass through the fire.
They are reading a book!
Having said that..would anyone like a tarot card reading?
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INteresting that you should bring up the bible. There is no reference in the original manuscripts of Witches or Witchcraft. The word Witch et al was added latere in order to justify the killing of "Witches".
It is true that some practices that Witches perform, ie divination or talking to spirits is forbidden by your bible, but that only applies to Christians. In any case the subject here is Harry Potter, which bears no relation to real Witchcraft.
Havoc
It is true that some practices that Witches perform, ie divination or talking to spirits is forbidden by your bible, but that only applies to Christians. In any case the subject here is Harry Potter, which bears no relation to real Witchcraft.
Havoc
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A real live person? As opposed to ... the Weekend at Bernie types?
Seriously, I can try and arrange for one or two former satanists to contact you if you like. They are both in NZ at the moment so you won't be able to meet them face to face (web-cam?), but, I can probably get half a dozen or so people to confirm the information they give as well.
PM me.
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Mac, you don't know what I have seen and heard, I can assure you it is not hearsay, but, save you coming over to Australia/NZ to meet certain people, I could never convince you.
Have I been a satanist myself? No. I cannot comment first hand as you describe it, you're right. However my step-father is involved in spiritual warfare and I have studied a fair amount of information in this area. I am not basing this on one persons testimony, as powerful and truthful as it may have been.
Let me ask you a question about HP: have you researched the background of Rowling?
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Havoc,
After reading my previous post, I think it came across as confrontational and slightly hostile, though that was not my intention. I wrote the post very late in the morning, but that is no excuse. Christ has called us to love one another and I fell short of that. I apologise to you.
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The satanist I had referred to had no reason for tall tales. He did not want to be famous and he lives on the smell of an oily rag.
I didn't correlate witchcraft and satanism per se, I said that a satanist had given me information about HP and how much planning had gone into it. Before then I had considered HP kind of harmless too, now I know otherwise.
Do you think that I would want to believe that something like HP (which, admittedly, has encouraged kids to read) is not something a Christian should be involved with? Considering the reflex responses that I always get saying that I am being extremist, lying, deluded etc etc? I only speak out because I want to share what I have found ...
To clarify witchcraft vs satanism: a satanist will tell you that Witchcraft is "child's play." In comparison to satanism, Witchcraft is very tame, however it provides a person with an avenue to explore the realm of the dark forces further and further if they want to.
Satanism involves a far greater degree of demonic power and evil than even black magic, witchcraft, and shamanism. Satan is worshiped directly and obeyed precisely.
Satan appears physically before them, and leads them directly, planning and enforcing their diabolical activities.
Satanism is an extremely sophisticated worldwide network, with a great deal of undercover control in the world. There are many people in high places that are satanists, some in the police force, some in the judicial system, some are doctors, surgeons, CEO's of hospitals, teachers and so on.
Of course, I cannot really prove any of this to you via an internet forum, and I don't really expect you to take my word for it.
After reading my previous post, I think it came across as confrontational and slightly hostile, though that was not my intention. I wrote the post very late in the morning, but that is no excuse. Christ has called us to love one another and I fell short of that. I apologise to you.
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The satanist I had referred to had no reason for tall tales. He did not want to be famous and he lives on the smell of an oily rag.
I didn't correlate witchcraft and satanism per se, I said that a satanist had given me information about HP and how much planning had gone into it. Before then I had considered HP kind of harmless too, now I know otherwise.
Do you think that I would want to believe that something like HP (which, admittedly, has encouraged kids to read) is not something a Christian should be involved with? Considering the reflex responses that I always get saying that I am being extremist, lying, deluded etc etc? I only speak out because I want to share what I have found ...
To clarify witchcraft vs satanism: a satanist will tell you that Witchcraft is "child's play." In comparison to satanism, Witchcraft is very tame, however it provides a person with an avenue to explore the realm of the dark forces further and further if they want to.
Satanism involves a far greater degree of demonic power and evil than even black magic, witchcraft, and shamanism. Satan is worshiped directly and obeyed precisely.
Satan appears physically before them, and leads them directly, planning and enforcing their diabolical activities.
Satanism is an extremely sophisticated worldwide network, with a great deal of undercover control in the world. There are many people in high places that are satanists, some in the police force, some in the judicial system, some are doctors, surgeons, CEO's of hospitals, teachers and so on.
Of course, I cannot really prove any of this to you via an internet forum, and I don't really expect you to take my word for it.
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Brim, firstly, thanks for your respect.
As for what I am saying, I cannot blame you if you do not believe the veracity of it. If I was in your shoes I would not believe it either. These are some "way out" statements I am making, and the perfectly natural reaction is to assume that I have been confused or lied to. I fully expect that.
In fact, I don't often talk about these things publicly, because you can, quite literally, be putting your life on the line. Satanism is not something you dabble with or "try out."
Would you be interested in reading one of the testimonies I have? As I mentioned to seebs, I can even try and get someone to contact you if you like. It's up to you ...
As for what I am saying, I cannot blame you if you do not believe the veracity of it. If I was in your shoes I would not believe it either. These are some "way out" statements I am making, and the perfectly natural reaction is to assume that I have been confused or lied to. I fully expect that.
In fact, I don't often talk about these things publicly, because you can, quite literally, be putting your life on the line. Satanism is not something you dabble with or "try out."
Would you be interested in reading one of the testimonies I have? As I mentioned to seebs, I can even try and get someone to contact you if you like. It's up to you ...
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Ben,
Hearsay is not an insult. It does not even mean you are wrong. However your original post was hearsay, as is your promise in this post ("meet certain people." ) Hearsay is a claim that X is true, not because the speaker has experienced X, but because the speaker knows people who have experienced X.
I have not researched the life of Rowling, no. Nor have I researched CS Lewis. If someone tells me that satanists are dangerous and that there are satanist CEOs, does that mean CS Lewis shouldn't be read by children? No, and it doesn't go through for Rowling either, because you haven't presented one whit of evidence that Rowling's books are associated with anything nefarious. You've merely used hearsay to 'guarantee' that satanism is real. So what?
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Lots of people who have "no reason" to tell tall tales do indeed tell them. The fact that you've quoted him actually gives him a reason, he is incresed in stature in your sight.
Your reference to living "on the smell of an oily rag" is somewhat cryptic. Do you mean he is poverty stricken, or that he sniffs solvents? The latter definately would give cause to doubt his veracity. The former also raises some doubts. Have you ever heard the song "Once I was the King of Spain"? It's the ramblings of a poor man claiming that he really is the King and is stuck driving the Zamnboni by way of a terrible mistake. How many times have we heard the tale of a destitute man man who claims a previous live of wealth and fame. Most of these turn out to be "tall tales"
More correctly you assume otherwise based on uncorroborated anecdotal evicdence. There is much evidence to show that there is no connection yet you have chosen to ignore that evidence.
Yes I do think so. Many Christians want to believe that other religions are not just different but are, in fact, inherently evil. It makes for a much better late night story. If that were not the case people like Mike Warnke and Rebecca Brown would never have sold so much as a paragraph scribbled on a paper napkin. In fact, you (the big you) have made them celebrities.
Witchraft provides a person with an avenue to a different religion than yours, nothing more. Keep in mind that I speak from a position of greater experience than you on this. You know what you've been told, I know what I am.
I'm afraid your idea of Satanism is rather outmoded as well. Modern Satanists do not view "Satan" as a discreet entity at all, but rather as a concept. They do not believe he can appear to them and to do anyone's bidding is completely against their philosophy. The Idea of a sophisticated, worldwide network of Satanists infiltrating the highest levels of Government went out of fashion when the whole SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse) fallacy was exposed as completely false. Satanism is just another Religion, in this case one that opposes yours. If there are Satanists in Business or in Teaching that is as irrelevant as if there were Buddhists. I suggest you read some articles on modern Satanism that were not written by Fundamentalist Christians.
No, you can't and I won't. The reason being is that your information is suspect and, IMHO, less reliable than the large quantity of material I have seen that says otherwise, including my own first hand experience with Witchcraft, the many conversations I have had with Satanists, and the national and international investigations done by institutions such as the FBI on SRA and supposed Satanist Conspiracies. The problem with Conspiracists though, is the more evidence you give them that the conspiracy doesn't exist, the more they believe that proves there is a conspiracy. In the end Occam's Razor is very much more often right than wrong.
Havoc
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Do any of these examples in harry potter relate to the world of the occult havoc?
http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/harrypotterarticle.htm
http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/harrypotterarticle.htm
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Ben the individual in question need not have been lying to you; he could be rather deluded himself. That's kind of my point about this. A lot of quacks are drawn to these issues. Most of the people in the occult have a pretty wild imagination ( have some background in that area myself), and the difference between a fantasy and a reality isn't particularly strong in many of the minds of those working in this area. I would say that this is true of both the ocultists themselves and the so-called cult experts. We had quite a Satanic trend in the U.S. during the late 80s, and much of the evidence seems to suggest that it was a deviance-control and moral panic wave rather than an actual rise in deviance itself. Close to a hundred day-care centers were accused of performing Satanic rituals with the children, and expert after expert made their careers taling about the existence of an organized Satanic conspiracy. As it happens the only abuse in virtually all of the daycare center cases was the introduction of sexual knowledge to the poor kids by the social workers who were asking the most leading questions possible and pressuring the kids into thinking something bad happened to them. A lot of lives were ruined in this scare, and a lot of shameful opportunists (including a number of professional-exes made their fortunes playing to our worst fears). There are a lot of blatant con-artists in the business of telling us about the occult; some get money out of it and some get attention.
I also assume that you realize what you say of Satanism would not be true of LaVey's crowd. And I see no reason to assume that witches are exploring in dark powers and more than those of light. It is a religion with questionable origins, but a religion non-the-less. If all religions but Christianity are evil, then so be it, but if you can extend respect to other religions, then why not to them as well? It also sounds like yu took the word of a Satanist on what witches are all about. That's a bit like asking a Muslem what Judaism is all about.
I also assume that you realize what you say of Satanism would not be true of LaVey's crowd. And I see no reason to assume that witches are exploring in dark powers and more than those of light. It is a religion with questionable origins, but a religion non-the-less. If all religions but Christianity are evil, then so be it, but if you can extend respect to other religions, then why not to them as well? It also sounds like yu took the word of a Satanist on what witches are all about. That's a bit like asking a Muslem what Judaism is all about.
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Brimshack:
Other than the reality and fantasy comment ;-) , most of what you said is as I understand it as well. You exhibit a rare combination of strength in your own beliefs and tolerance and respect for others.
Havoc
Other than the reality and fantasy comment ;-) , most of what you said is as I understand it as well. You exhibit a rare combination of strength in your own beliefs and tolerance and respect for others.
Havoc
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This is from a chritsian's point of view:
Answer: I believe one of the main differences is that of ?focus?. The whole focus of Harry Potter is on Witchcraft and occultism. Harry and his friends go to Hogwart?s Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry, all the people who teach him are accomplished occultists. In the lessons he attends he learns, and is exposed to, real occultism. Here is a list of just some of the actual real life occultism found in the Harry Potter books -
Alchemy
Arithmancy (a Chaldean and Greek method of divination by numbers)
Astrology
Auras
Charms
Crystal ball gazing (Scrying)
Curses
Demon possession
Divination
Fortune telling
Incantations
Numerology
Palmistry
Runes
Spiritualism (Contact with the dead or Channelling)
Tea leaf reading
Another difference between Harry Potter and other children?s fantasy literature is that the Witches, as a general rule, do not normally teach the children occultism and are mostly portrayed in a negative light."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=306029&in_review_text_id=250010
"What would you say to the objection that children are not going to become Witches or turn to the occult because of Harry Potter?"
Answer: J.K. Rowling herself, often says something like: "No child has ever come up to me and said "Miss Rowling, now that I have read the Harry Potter books, I want to become a Witch." Whether this is true or not in J.K. Rowling?s own experience, one thing is for sure, as was seen above from the quotation from The Pagan Federation, it does certainly seem that there are some children who are thinking along these lines.
Furthermore, it would appear to me that children are certainly being conditioned to see Witchcraft in a positive light, and therefore be more ready to become involved in it when they get older. I am convinced that many teenagers and young adults, in the next generation, will be fascinated with Witchcraft and the occult."
Even some occultists themselves recognize that some children are being led into the occult as a result of the current interest being promoted by fictional Witchcraft. BBC News reported:
"The Pagan Federation, which represents druids and witches, says it has been "swamped" with calls following teenage programmes featuring good witches. Speaking to BBC News Online the Pagan Federation's Steve Paine, the high priest of a coven, said the hit US drama Buffy and the highly successful Harry Potter books were popular amongst practising witches. "They are taken as fantasy entertainment. But they do encourage people to think about different forms of spirituality", he said."
The article then goes on to say that the Pagan Federation are getting about a 100 requests a month from young people, and have had to appoint a youth worker to deal with the demand.
So the truth is, that Harry Potter (and popular fictional dramas like Buffy the Vampire Slayer) does indeed lead some children into the occult."
"Some people object that the Harry Potter books do not teach legitimate spells, and are therefore harmless. What would you say to that?"
Answer: What the books do teach children is the concept of magick, that is to say, they learn that if they say certain words, and do certain things, they can get certain results and control people. Harry and his friends manipulate spiritual forces to achieve these ends.
This is what casting spells and working magick is all about. Modern day occultism is very eclectic, and many witches and occultists regularly make up their own spells. So even though most of the formulas and wording for the spells in Harry Potter are not written in actual occult books, the principle is the same. Certain results are achieved by saying certain words and manipulating spiritual forces."
jerimy
"What do you say to those who claim that if there is danger in the Harry Potter books, then Christians should also be warning against reading Snow White, or even C.S. Lewis? Chronicles of Narnia, or any other fairy-tales which have magic or Witches in them?"
Answer: I believe one of the main differences is that of ?focus?. The whole focus of Harry Potter is on Witchcraft and occultism. Harry and his friends go to Hogwart?s Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry, all the people who teach him are accomplished occultists. In the lessons he attends he learns, and is exposed to, real occultism. Here is a list of just some of the actual real life occultism found in the Harry Potter books -
Alchemy
Arithmancy (a Chaldean and Greek method of divination by numbers)
Astrology
Auras
Charms
Crystal ball gazing (Scrying)
Curses
Demon possession
Divination
Fortune telling
Incantations
Numerology
Palmistry
Runes
Spiritualism (Contact with the dead or Channelling)
Tea leaf reading
Another difference between Harry Potter and other children?s fantasy literature is that the Witches, as a general rule, do not normally teach the children occultism and are mostly portrayed in a negative light."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=306029&in_review_text_id=250010
"What would you say to the objection that children are not going to become Witches or turn to the occult because of Harry Potter?"
Answer: J.K. Rowling herself, often says something like: "No child has ever come up to me and said "Miss Rowling, now that I have read the Harry Potter books, I want to become a Witch." Whether this is true or not in J.K. Rowling?s own experience, one thing is for sure, as was seen above from the quotation from The Pagan Federation, it does certainly seem that there are some children who are thinking along these lines.
Furthermore, it would appear to me that children are certainly being conditioned to see Witchcraft in a positive light, and therefore be more ready to become involved in it when they get older. I am convinced that many teenagers and young adults, in the next generation, will be fascinated with Witchcraft and the occult."
Even some occultists themselves recognize that some children are being led into the occult as a result of the current interest being promoted by fictional Witchcraft. BBC News reported:
"The Pagan Federation, which represents druids and witches, says it has been "swamped" with calls following teenage programmes featuring good witches. Speaking to BBC News Online the Pagan Federation's Steve Paine, the high priest of a coven, said the hit US drama Buffy and the highly successful Harry Potter books were popular amongst practising witches. "They are taken as fantasy entertainment. But they do encourage people to think about different forms of spirituality", he said."
The article then goes on to say that the Pagan Federation are getting about a 100 requests a month from young people, and have had to appoint a youth worker to deal with the demand.
So the truth is, that Harry Potter (and popular fictional dramas like Buffy the Vampire Slayer) does indeed lead some children into the occult."
"Some people object that the Harry Potter books do not teach legitimate spells, and are therefore harmless. What would you say to that?"
Answer: What the books do teach children is the concept of magick, that is to say, they learn that if they say certain words, and do certain things, they can get certain results and control people. Harry and his friends manipulate spiritual forces to achieve these ends.
This is what casting spells and working magick is all about. Modern day occultism is very eclectic, and many witches and occultists regularly make up their own spells. So even though most of the formulas and wording for the spells in Harry Potter are not written in actual occult books, the principle is the same. Certain results are achieved by saying certain words and manipulating spiritual forces."
jerimy
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i think that anything is evil if you let it be. If Harry Potter is a fairy tale, If Harry Potter is evil then Snow White is evil. After all Snow White's step mother was what....a witch. Cinderella would also be evil...what was the God Mother....a witch/fairy (same difference), and if Harry Potter is evil then STAR WARS is evil and I mean c'mon now...how many star wars fans are reading this right now? hey i'm a star wars fan myself.
I don't think that Harry Potter is evil, I just think it can BE evil if you let it become evil, just like anything else.
I don't think that Harry Potter is evil, I just think it can BE evil if you let it become evil, just like anything else.
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Harry Potter is a fairy tale. If Harry Potter is evil then snow white is evil. After all what was Snow Whites step mother...a witch. If Harry Potter is evil then Cinderella is evil. What was the fairy god mother? a witch. If Harry Potter is evil then STAR WARS is evil and I mean c'mon now how many Star Wars fans are reading this right now. Hey, I'm a Star Wars fan myself. Don't call one thing wrong and then say the exact same thing is right just in a different form.
I think that Harry Potter could be wrong if you LET it be. If you take it seriously then just like all of these yes it can become wrong and harmful...but after all it is only just a fairy tale.
I think that Harry Potter could be wrong if you LET it be. If you take it seriously then just like all of these yes it can become wrong and harmful...but after all it is only just a fairy tale.
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Jerimy:
You are correct, that is from a Christian's point of view, a Christian who obviously knows little if anything about the "occult". If you wanted to know about George Bush would you ask Bin Laden? Of course not, you'd ask George Bush. Bin Laden would be expected to give you a biased and unrealistic description because he has declared himself Bush's enemy.If you want to know about Witchcraft, the best thing to do is ask a Witch, not a Christian.
You are correct, that is from a Christian's point of view, a Christian who obviously knows little if anything about the "occult". If you wanted to know about George Bush would you ask Bin Laden? Of course not, you'd ask George Bush. Bin Laden would be expected to give you a biased and unrealistic description because he has declared himself Bush's enemy.If you want to know about Witchcraft, the best thing to do is ask a Witch, not a Christian.
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