Harry Potter Deathly Hollows Pt 2 *something That Doesn't Make Sense

[Tuddrussell]

Do you deny that he was a hero? That all the good he has done was meaningless because he could make sparks shoot from a stick?

 

[Nilloc]

Anyhow, having read works of 'curious arts' from early Christian times, I have to say, there was a lot of it that didn't seem to require pagan temple worship or idols, and among Neo-Platonists who did theurgy, many had views along the lines of theosophists, new-agers, and occultists rather than crude pagan worship or idolatry...

So when I see in Acts that believers destroyed the writings on 'curious arts', I don't see exclusively the idol-worship of pagan temples or worship of pagan deities, I also see in that category various writings involving astrology, charms, incantations, mystical theories, etc.

Harry Potter, as an apprentice sorcerer, was engaged in such 'arts', and if he was in Ephesus with Paul and converted to Christianity, he would have renounced his sorcery and burned whatever books or magical implements he had.

I don't see a story of an unrepentant sorcerer 'hero' as wholesome Christian entertainment.

And as I said before, the magic that is condemned is religious in nature, Harry Potter is not a religious book. Have you read the books (how many times have i asked you that, and you always ignore me)?

And yes, Harry is a hero. Practicing a fictional magic that the Biblical writers never heard of doesn't make him less heroic. And no, Harry wouldn't renounce his sorcery (assuming it was true), because there's nothing contradictory about what he does and Christianity. I'd imagine Christianity is probably true in the Harry Potter books given that JKR is a Christian.

As for what is considered "Christian entertainment"; I doubt you would consider me a Christian anyway, so there's no point in going into that.

And would you care to show me where any of the witches in biblical times practiced the same spells that Harry practices?

 

[ToBeInChrist]

And as I said before, the magic that is condemned is religious in nature

Not always. You'd have to read that in or interpret it with that assumption.

Have you read the books.

No. I ask people who like the books about it, and they tell me there are incantations, potions, Harry is an apprentice sorcerer, etc. Is any of that inaccurate?

Practicing a fictional magic that the Biblical writers never heard of doesn't make him less heroic.

Would practicing a specific form of sexual perversion not mentioned in the Bible make a character less heroic? What about an injustice? What about blasphemy?

And no, Harry wouldn't renounce his sorcery (assuming it was true), because there's nothing contradictory about what he does and Christianity.

Galatians 5: 19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
​

And would you care to show me where any of the witches in biblical times practiced the same spells that Harry practices?

Muttering incantations and making enchantments/potions are mentioned repeatedly throughout the Bible. Also, does he not study divination/astrology? Another thing mentioned throughout the Bible as forbidden.

Does he channel spirits or do magic to summon the dead? I can't tell from what I've read whether this is the case or not, technically, but it does seem there is necromancy also. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

The point is, the series glorifies forbidden practices. That there are fictional elements just states the obvious: it isn't a work of biography or history.

 

[Nilloc]

Not always. You'd have to read that in or interpret it with that assumption.

LOL. I’ve read papers by people far more educated than you that say that. It’s certainly better than you constantly assuming the worst.

No.

There you have it folks. This should end the debate right here.

I ask people who like the books about it, and they tell me there are incantations, potions, Harry is an apprentice sorcerer, etc. Is any of that inaccurate?

Harry doesn’t practice anything that’s condemned in the Bible. Vague notions about spells and potions are not what the Bible condemns.

Would practicing a specific form of sexual perversion not mentioned in the Bible make a character less heroic?

No.

What about an injustice? What about blasphemy?

Protagonists sin just like the rest of us, but that doesn’t make it less heroic. There are plenty of real people I consider heroes and they’ll all sinners.

Galatians 5: 19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Quoting verses out of context proves nothing. Witchcraft in this verse isn’t what Harry practices. And even if it was, it doesn’t make enjoying the story sinful. The Bible has more sins in it than Harry Potter.

And the Bible simply doesn't address what you want it to address. Conservatives constantly read it as if it were written to them, answering their questions. It wasn't, and you insult the biblical authors by butchering there words to fit your fundamentalist crusade against the things you don't understand.

Muttering incantations and making enchantments/potions are mentioned repeatedly throughout the Bible.

Having sex is also condemned in the Bible. See, I can make the same vague references and make things sound sinful too.

Also, does he not study divination/astrology? Another thing mentioned throughout the Bible as forbidden.

Jesus also talked with dead people, and the wise men who visited Jesus were astrologers.

Does he channel spirits or do magic to summon the dead? I can't tell from what I've read whether this is the case or not, technically, but it does seem there is necromancy also. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Quit commenting on things you don’t know about, it’s lazy and irresponsible. It just amazes me that you can be here trying to lecture people on something you don’t know a damn thing about. You invade a thread that was discussing possible Harry Potter plot holes, and you post your ignorant comments. Do you have no shame? You're certainly a good example of the anti-Potter fundies.

The point is, the series glorifies forbidden practices.

Just keep repeating that to yourself. I’m sure it helps justify your condemnation of others.

What if I didn't read your posts, but still condemned you of some sin? That's what you're doing with HP.

That there are fictional elements just states the obvious: it isn't a work of biography or history.

So what? The Bible has plenty of non-historical and non-biographical parts in it.

 

[Incariol]

Muttering incantations and making enchantments/potions are mentioned repeatedly throughout the Bible. Also, does he not study divination/astrology? Another thing mentioned throughout the Bible as forbidden.

Chemistry and astronomy are evil! Chemistry and astronomy are evil!

Oh LOL! Seriously?!

Does he channel spirits or do magic to summon the dead? I can't tell from what I've read whether this is the case or not, technically, but it does seem there is necromancy also. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

The point is, the series glorifies forbidden practices. That there are fictional elements just states the obvious: it isn't a work of biography or history.

The passage was lit by no shaft and was utterly dark. They groped their way down a long flight of steps, and then looked back; but they could see nothing, except high above them the faint glimmer of the wizard’s staff. He seemed to be still standing on guard by the closed door. Frodo breathed heavily and leaned against Sam, who put his arms about him. They stood peering up the stairs into the darkness. Frodo thought he could hear the voice of Gandalf above, muttering words that ran down the sloping roof with a sighing echo. He could not catch what was said. The walls seemed to be trembling. Every now and again the drum-beats throbbed and rolled: doom, doom. Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company. ‘Well, well! That’s over!’ said the wizard struggling to his feet. ‘I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don’t stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for a while: I am rather shaken. Go on! Go on! Where are you, Gimli? Come ahead with me! Keep close behind, all of you!’

They stumbled after him wondering what had happened. Doom, doom went the drum-beats again: they now sounded muffled and far away, but they were following. There was no other sound of pursuit, neither tramp of feet, nor any voice. Gandalf took no turns, right or left, for the passage seemed to be going in the direction that he desired. Every now and again it descended a flight of steps, fifty or more, to a lower level. At the moment that was their chief danger; for in the dark they could not see a descent, until they came on it and put their feet out into emptiness. Gandalf felt the ground with his staff like a blind man. At the end of an hour they had gone a mile, or maybe a little more, and had descended many flights of stairs. There was still no sound of pursuit. Almost they began to hope that they would escape. At the bottom of the seventh flight Gandalf halted. ‘It is getting hot!’ he gasped. ‘We ought to be down at least to the level of the Gates now. Soon I think we should look for a left-hand turn to take us east. I hope it is not far. I am very weary. I must rest here a moment, even if all the orcs ever spawned are after us.’ Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. ‘What happened away up there at the door?’ he asked. ‘Did you meet the beater of the drums?’ ‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf. ‘But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength. ‘As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghâsh: that is “fire”. Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. ‘What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.



Oh no! Gandalf is a Satan-worshiper!

 

[Nilloc]

And by the way ToBeInChrist, if you want a really good read about why the magic in Harry Potter is not what's condemned in the Bible, read this:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2955088-6/#post23741441

(My compliments to PaladinValer)

 

[Nilloc]

Chemistry and astronomy are evil! Chemistry and astronomy are evil!

Oh LOL! Seriously?!



The passage was lit by no shaft and was utterly dark. They groped their way down a long flight of steps, and then looked back; but they could see nothing, except high above them the faint glimmer of the wizard’s staff. He seemed to be still standing on guard by the closed door. Frodo breathed heavily and leaned against Sam, who put his arms about him. They stood peering up the stairs into the darkness. Frodo thought he could hear the voice of Gandalf above, muttering words that ran down the sloping roof with a sighing echo. He could not catch what was said. The walls seemed to be trembling. Every now and again the drum-beats throbbed and rolled: doom, doom. Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company. ‘Well, well! That’s over!’ said the wizard struggling to his feet. ‘I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don’t stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for a while: I am rather shaken. Go on! Go on! Where are you, Gimli? Come ahead with me! Keep close behind, all of you!’

They stumbled after him wondering what had happened. Doom, doom went the drum-beats again: they now sounded muffled and far away, but they were following. There was no other sound of pursuit, neither tramp of feet, nor any voice. Gandalf took no turns, right or left, for the passage seemed to be going in the direction that he desired. Every now and again it descended a flight of steps, fifty or more, to a lower level. At the moment that was their chief danger; for in the dark they could not see a descent, until they came on it and put their feet out into emptiness. Gandalf felt the ground with his staff like a blind man. At the end of an hour they had gone a mile, or maybe a little more, and had descended many flights of stairs. There was still no sound of pursuit. Almost they began to hope that they would escape. At the bottom of the seventh flight Gandalf halted. ‘It is getting hot!’ he gasped. ‘We ought to be down at least to the level of the Gates now. Soon I think we should look for a left-hand turn to take us east. I hope it is not far. I am very weary. I must rest here a moment, even if all the orcs ever spawned are after us.’ Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. ‘What happened away up there at the door?’ he asked. ‘Did you meet the beater of the drums?’ ‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf. ‘But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength. ‘As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghâsh: that is “fire”. Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. ‘What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.



Oh no! Gandalf is a Satan-worshiper!

And let us not forget that Tolkien was a devout Christian. As was C.S. Lewis, one of the most respected modern Christian figures in all circles, including conservative ones. I'm sure Lewis spent all that time writing books defending Christianity just to fool us into reading his satanic Narnia books.

I was actually thinking about re-reading LOTR soon. I think I will just because of this thread.

 

[united4Peace]

Wont say anything about astronomy...but yes Chemistry is EVIL!! So is biology...which I took and hated (because its evil)...am now taking pathophysiology and that is evil as well...only reason Im doing it is so that I can experience the evil so I can fight it better in the future

APA...thats the evilest of them all...!!! ugghh

 

[Incariol]

Wont say anything about astronomy...but yes Chemistry is EVIL!! So is biology...which I took and hated (because its evil)...am now taking pathophysiology and that is evil as well...only reason Im doing it is so that I can experience the evil so I can fight it better in the future

APA...thats the evilest of them all...!!! ugghh

I hope this is a joke. All the things you have just mentioned are pure awesome.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Do you deny that he was a hero? That all the good he has done was meaningless because he could make sparks shoot from a stick?

Let's be fair here. Hermione is the real hero If it weren't for her, they wouldn't last 2 days.

 

[Tuddrussell]

Please, the most fundamental character is so obviously mrs. weasley... But that doesn't make the others not heroes.

 

[Incariol]

Let's be fair here. Hermione is the real hero If it weren't for her, they wouldn't last 2 days.

So true. I always wanted Hermione to turn evil. She's too smart to remain shackled down by those two hicks she calls friends. She should have turned to the Dark Arts and apprenticed herself to Voldemort, killed Bellatrix, and ended the series by mind-controlling Ron into being her lover with the Imperius Curse, killed Harry, and overthrown Voldemort.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

True enough, Mrs Weasely was pretty awesome in how she handled Beatrix. I love luna the most to be honest, she is just that character I connect to best

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

So true. I always wanted Hermione to turn evil. She's too smart to remain shackled down by those two hicks she calls friends. She should have turned to the Dark Arts and apprenticed herself to Voldemort, killed Bellatrix, and ended the series by mind-controlling Ron into being her lover with the Imperius Curse, killed Harry, and overthrown Voldemort.

AHHH! :O *ignores*

 

[Nilloc]

I think Dumbledore is the most heroic. It was his grand planning that ended up saving the Wizarding World. If it wasn't for that, neither Harry, nor Hermione could have done what they did.

 

[Tuddrussell]

So true. I always wanted Hermione to turn evil. She's too smart to remain shackled down by those two hicks she calls friends. She should have turned to the Dark Arts and apprenticed herself to Voldemort, killed Bellatrix, and ended the series by mind-controlling Ron into being her lover with the Imperius Curse, killed Harry, and overthrown Voldemort.

Sounds to me like you spent too much, or not enough, time on fanfiction.net.

 

[Tuddrussell]

I think Dumbledore is the most heroic. It was his grand planning that ended up saving the Wizarding World. If it wasn't for that, neither Harry, nor Hermione could have done what they did.

As much responsibility he has for the good that has happened, he is also responsible for the bad.

 

[Nilloc]

As much responsibility he has for the good that has happened, he is also responsible for the bad.

Don't Harry and Dumbledore have this same conversation at the end of DH? lol. Sure, he caused a lot of bad, but that doesn't make him any less heroic for what he did, and what he became.

 

[Tuddrussell]

The ends don't always justify the means. He did have people's best intrests at heart, but that in no way excuses what he had done personally or especially the things he is culpable for in that he allowed to happen through noninterferance.

 

[Incariol]

Sounds to me like you spent too much, or not enough, time on fanfiction.net.

Nah, it just annoyed me shiny and perfect they all were. They never got any worse than adolescent angst and Harry being a self-absorbed git. It would have been cool if Ron had turned out to be somehow racist or Hermione developed an unquenchable lust for power.