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[Zadok001]

The following is a post made on Infidels.org by one Scigirl.  She has given me permission to repost it here.  There is some question as to the veracity of the first example given below, specifically, as to the beliefs of Luther, Melancthon and Calvin.

Thanks to Scigirl.  The original thread is here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51549

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]The argument over warning labels in science books inspired me to write this post. Here’s a reminder of what happens when we let church doctrine govern scientific and educational endeavors. Quotes were taken from "Is It God's Word?" written by Joseph Wheless.

Throughout history, Church leaders have gone to great lengths to conceal scientific truths that contradict with their view of the Bible, and still continue to do so. Why? Because since the beginning of the Christian church, the leaders have recognized that their credibility (and thus their power and income) relies on the continued belief of its populus that the Bible is inerrant. Here are some notable examples, but this is by no means an exhaustive list:

1) The fact that the earth is round was denied because of scripture.

When people started speculating that the earth was round instead of flat, and that people might live on the other side of the earth, the Church was not happy. Father St. Augustine wrote, “Scripture speaks of no such descendants of Adam as the Antipodeans. Men could not be allowed by the Almighty to live there, since if they did they could not see Christ at his second coming descending through the air…If there be men on the other side of the earth, Christ must have gone there and suffered a second time to save them; therefore there must have been, as necessary preliminaries to his coming, a duplicate Adam, Eden, Serpent and Deluge…If there were any antipodes, the Bible would have said so” and went on to say that the earth was actually a flat disc with a dropping off place; and that if the world were round, they would slide off.

Surprisingly, even after Magellan’s 1519 voyage, Churchmen including Luther, Melancthon and Calvin stuck to Scriptural revelation and still denied that the earth was round.

2) Facts of astronomy were disputed by the Church, and scientists were threatened with torture or death, because of scripture.

When Copernicus wrote his famous “The Revolutions of the Heavenly Bodies,” the Church instantly denounced the work as heresy and condemned it to suppression “until his statement should be corrected” to conform to the Bible…Father Luther stated, “This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but Sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth…If the earth is a planet, and only one among several planets, it cannot be that any such great things have been done for it as the Christian Doctrine teaches. If there are other planets, since God makes nothing in vain, they must be inhabited; but how can their inhabitants be descended from Adam? How can they trace their origin back to Noah’s ark? How can they be redeemed by the saviour?”

Kepler was another scientist whose works were suppressed by the warning label committee (I.E the Church). The Protestant Consistory of Stuttgart warned Kepler “not to throw Christ’s kingdom into confusion with his silly fancies,” and ordered him to “bring his theory of the world into harmony with Scripture.”

And of course there’s Galileo. The church told him, “The first proposition, that the sun is the center and does not revolve around the earth, is absurd, false in philosophy, and from a theological point of view at least, opposed to the true Faith.” They of course threatened him with torture and arrest if he didn’t recant his statements. Also at this time Pope Paul V placed the works of Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler in the “Index of Prohibited Books” and there they sat until 1835!

3) Studies of geology were suppressed because of scripture.

In 1749, a man named Buffon published “Histoire Naturelle,” and in it claimed the earth was 50,000 years old, ,and also developed the hypothesis that “that the earth had been formed from molten material cast off from the sun by the impact of a comet.” He was required to recant his statements and forced to state that “I abandon everything in my book respecting the formation of the earth, and generally all which may be contradictory to the narrative of Moses” else be killed.

4) The practice and study of medicine was discouraged by the Church because of scripture.

Father St. Ambrose declared in the Dark Ages, “The precepts of Medicine are contrary to celestial science, watching and prayer.”

The Apostle’s Creed, regarding resurrection of the body, discouraged anatomical study, and the Church forbade surgery to Monks; all dissection was forbidden by Decretal of Pope Boniface VIII, and excommunication was threatened against all who presumed to practice it.

5) The facts of human origins are currently disputed by the Church because of scripture.

From Answers in Genesis: target=_blank>http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3359.asp[/font]

The Biblical doctrine of origins, as contained in the book of Genesis, is foundation to all other doctrines of Scripture. Refute or undermine in any way the Biblical doctrine of origins, and the rest of the Bible is undermined. Every single Biblical doctrine of theology, directly or indirectly, ultimately has its basis in the book of Genesis. Therefore, if you do not have a believing understanding of that book (not just believing it is true, but believing and understanding what it says), you cannot hope to attain full understanding of what Christianity is all about.

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[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]Once again, Christians make the claim that some scientific discovery (in this case, evolution) jeapordizes their entire religion. And therefore they are making attempts to suppress the discovery, by appealing to politicans to remove any mention of evolution (was it the state of Kansas a couple of years ago that literally ripped pages out of textbooks?) or in other states, putting a "warning label" on the information.

I have to wonder if these Christians know their history, since their fear seems to be unfounded. Did the discovery of a round earth, an old earth, or an earth that revolves around the sun make Christianity disappear? Unfortunately, no. Why should this discovery be any different?

I also wonder how Christians see what they are doing as any different than the above scenarios. Did priests make tragic errors in judgement because they took the word of the Bible over the word of scientific discovery? Yes they obviously did. Did these mistakes cause them to do immoral things such as suppress the truth? Yes they did. Did these priests call the discoverers, and anyone who believed in the discovery, a heathen worthy of punishment? Yes they did (and in some cases, threatened excommunication or even death!)

As I see it, we can learn three lessons from history:

1) The bible is a crappy science book - always has been.
2) This fact does not deter the ability of people to base their religion around it.
3) Churches will go to great lengths to suppress scientific truths.

Of course the church and state are (somewhat) separate now, and people are not put to death for heresy anymore in this country. So - I am glad that the current churches are only trying to put warning labels on my science books rather than kill or torture evolutionary biologists. However, knowing the history of science and religion makes me very uneasy, and skeptical that the Christians promting the labels have the progress of science, intellect, and the pursuit of pure knowledge in mind.

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[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]I think there are a few points made here that should be considered in this forum.  First of all, several people here have recently made statements claiming that the religion of Christianity is actively threatened by the theory of evolution; that indeed, Christianity may drop out of existance if evolution is ever universally accepted.[/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]The above demonstrates clearly that such claims have been made in the past, and are demonstrably false.[/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]Second, I think it's interesting to note that historically, these debates have arisen surrounding issues thought to conflict with the "clear" meaning of Scripture.  People read the Bible, and interpreted it 'literally.'  From this, they concluded the Sun revolved around the Earth.  Today, people read the Bible and interpret it 'literally.'  From this, they conclude that common ancestory is contrary to Scripture.[/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]This shows, again conclusively, that a 'literal' reading of Scripture is not perfect.  Modern Christians, even YECs, accept that the Earth revolved around the Sun, and do not find this to be in contradiction with the Bible.  Likewise, it is possible that at some point in the future, accepting evolutionary theory will not be viewed as contrary to the Bible?[/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica"]The two cases seem analogous.[/font]

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Kudos to scigirl for writing that up.

And I've noticed even in these very forums that some people ignore the "science versus religion" conflicts of the past, and seem to think that evolution is the first time such a thing has occured.

 

[Arikay]

The pope finally made an official statement that he accepted the Heliocentric idea only 11 years ago.

That didnt seem to destroy the church either.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 09:58 PM Arikay said this in Post #3

The pope finally made an official statement that he accepted the Heliocentric idea only 11 years ago.

That didnt seem to destroy the church either.

The scientific progress boggles the mind.

Didn't they only pardon Gallieo earlier this century?

Perhaps they can schedule a debate regarding the Internet around the year 2400.

 

[Arikay]

What do you mean debate, its obvious that the Internet doesnt exist. If it did it might destroy christianity.

The largest danger to christianity is the people that make these claims (that science x will destroy christianity if its true) because not everyone can close their ears to the evidence, and when people say you must either believe the church or the evidence, many seem to go towards the evidence.
As in my thread about Creationists commiting false witness (well, lieing), you can also see that those that make these claims may drive people away because they are willing to lie just to get people to believe them. Ending up shaming the religion they are supposably protecting.

 

[Follower of Christ]

Youre all nuts, the earth is flat...






btw, the pope does not speak for those of us who follow Christ and not a man.

 

[Zadok001]

Today at 02:19 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #6

btw, the pope does not speak for those of us who follow Christ and not a man.

We know, and that's not the point.  The point is, people have historically made the same claims you make - ~foo~ contradicts the Bible and is therefore false, and furthermore, if ~foo~ is true, Christianity will fall apart!

They have been wrong on both counts.

Does this mean NOTHING to you?

 

[Micaiah]

Job 38
God Shows Job's Ignorance
(1) 1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:


2"Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.


4"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?


8"Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11When I said,
"This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!'


12"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.


16"Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.


19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?


22"Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?


25"Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.

31"Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
32Can you bring out Mazzaroth[1] in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?



34"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you?
35Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, "Here we are!'?
36Who has put wisdom in the mind?[2]
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
37Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?


39"Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
41Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?

 

[notto]

That Job passage simply applies God of the Gaps thinking. Does God cause each and every bolt of lightening for a reason or purpose? Looks like they used to think so.

And what the heck is the literal meaning of a treasury of snow and hail?

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 10:00 AM notto said this in Post #9

That Job passage simply applies God of the Gaps thinking. Does God cause each and every bolt of lightening for a reason or purpose? Looks like they used to think so.

And what the heck is the literal meaning of a treasury of snow and hail?

Where did you get that god of the gaps stuff from that.
you need some SERIOUS bible study son.

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 09:23 AM Zadok001 said this in Post #7



We know, and that's not the point.  The point is, people have historically made the same claims you make - ~foo~ contradicts the Bible and is therefore false, and furthermore, if ~foo~ is true, Christianity will fall apart!

They have been wrong on both counts.

Does this mean NOTHING to you?

Let me ask YOU a question.

WHERE does it SAY in the bible that the earth is flat.

For any man to have realized that the earth even formed a circular shape that long ago is almost miraculous.

If some folks later on decided that the earth was flat based on this word circle, thats their problem, not Gods. He never said it was flat.

 

[notto]

Today at 09:35 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #11



Let me ask YOU a question.

WHERE does it SAY in the bible that the earth is flat.

For any man to have realized that the earth even formed a circular shape that long ago is almost miraculous.

If some folks later on decided that the earth was flat based on this word circle, thats their problem, not Gods. He never said it was flat.

Well, let's take a look at the Job passages above.

4"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,

8"Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11When I said,
"This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!'


12"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.


Foundations, Cornerstone, Bars and Doors stopping the water at edges, dawn taking place at ends of the earth, Doesn't sound very spherical to me. Sounds flat, with edges, with a foundation set below it with a cornerstone to keep it in place.

 

[Zadok001]

Huh?

I believe there are a number of reference to the Earth being flat, and indeed, having corners. Unfortunately, I'm not a Bible scholar, and cannot cite verses. I've only read the friggin' thing once all the way through (I'm reading through again, currently in Judges). I do recall a few things. I recall JC being taken onto a mountain and seeing the 'every corner of the world' or somesuch. That's clearly a reference to the Earth being flat - Or at least cubical. Spheres lack corners. I recall a reference to the sky being a 'dome.' A dome is not a full sphere, hence, a dome can only be placed over something that is flat (or curved only slightly).

But I turn to you and JohnR7 for specific verses, as well as some of my Christian friends. I'm a layman, both when it comes to the Bible, and when it comes to most sciences. I'm a little better versed in logic and philosophy.

But that's not really the point. People historically interpreted the Bible as meaning the world was flat. The world is not flat. Today, you interpret the Bible as saying the world is 6000 years old and evolution did not occur. Couldn't YOU be wrong by the same token these historical figures were wrong? They managed to mangle interpretation to reach false conclusions. Is it not possible that you are doing the same thing?

(If you can give me a straight and honest answer to that, I'll be impressed.)

 

[Zadok001]

Heh.

/me concedes to Notto, who apparently is much more adept at this 'cite a verse' thing than he is.

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 10:41 AM notto said this in Post #12



Well, let's take a look at the Job passages above.

4"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,

8"Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11When I said,
"This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!'


12"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.


Foundations, Cornerstone, Bars and Doors stopping the water at edges, dawn taking place at ends of the earth, Doesn't sound very spherical to me. Sounds flat, with edges, with a foundation set below it with a cornerstone to keep it in place.

Precisely as I said, it was assumed it was flat.
The bible never Stated that it was flat.

Again, here is where Bible study would help separate ''LITERAL" from ''METAPHOR".

Funny how you want a ''LITERAL'' reading in this passage and then so adamantly push a ''FIGURATIVE'' rendering in Genesis 1 when the text indeed forces a literal reading in Genesis 1.

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 10:45 AM Zadok001 said this in Post #13

Huh?

I believe there are a number of reference to the Earth being flat, and indeed, having corners. Unfortunately, I'm not a Bible scholar, and cannot cite verses. I've only read the friggin' thing once all the way through (I'm reading through again, currently in Judges). I do recall a few things. I recall JC being taken onto a mountain and seeing the 'every corner of the world' or somesuch. That's clearly a reference to the Earth being flat - Or at least cubical. Spheres lack corners. I recall a reference to the sky being a 'dome.' A dome is not a full sphere, hence, a dome can only be placed over something that is flat (or curved only slightly).

But I turn to you and JohnR7 for specific verses, as well as some of my Christian friends. I'm a layman, both when it comes to the Bible, and when it comes to most sciences. I'm a little better versed in logic and philosophy.

But that's not really the point. People historically interpreted the Bible as meaning the world was flat. The world is not flat. Today, you interpret the Bible as saying the world is 6000 years old and evolution did not occur. Couldn't YOU be wrong by the same token these historical figures were wrong? They managed to mangle interpretation to reach false conclusions. Is it not possible that you are doing the same thing?

(If you can give me a straight and honest answer to that, I'll be impressed.)

The Bible does not say the earth is flat.

Literal renderings are taken in the places where they should have been figurative.

Those folks did the same as is done today and refuse to learn where the Bible is literal and where it is figurative.
Its very easy to do once one becomes serious with God and His word.

And from what I have studied, there were plenty of folks then who did not believe the earth was flat.


Now we have been over this starlight thing before.
I dont know yet.
And that changes NOTHING about what I believe.
As I stated in the thread "what would it take", God Himself will have to come down, present is identification and then tell me Himself that it was billions of years for me to ever believe that agian.

No amount of circumstancial evidence will persuade me otherwise.


The Bible doesnt say its flat but it does say ''an evening and a morning the first day''

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 10:58 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #16

Literal renderings are taken in the places where they should have been figurative.

Those folks did the same as is done today and refuse to learn where the Bible is literal and where it is figurative.

I think every irony meter on the planet just went up in smoke.

 

[Zadok001]

Smoke? Pete, the things have been lost in nuclear blasts the size of Arizona!

FoC, aren't you reading what you're typing? "Literal renderings are taken in the places where they should have been figurative." There's no 'cheat sheet' for the Bible that says which verses are figurative and metaphorical, and which are literal! How can you honestly believe you know, with absolute certainty, which parts are not literal? Why couldn't Genesis be figurative?

Look, FoC, this is simple. You say the verses cited by Notto are meant to be figurative. I'll see your metaphor, and raise you most of Genesis. Now, what distinguishes Genesis from the verses cited by Notto, such that one can objectively determine that Genesis is literal while Notto's verses are figurative?

(Remember. People in the past have apparently taken the verses Notto cited literally, as per the OP.)

 

[wblastyn]

For any man to have realized that the earth even formed a circular shape that long ago is almost miraculous.

"The Babylonian universe was shaped like a modern domed stadium. The Babylonians considered the earth essentially flat, with a continental mass surrounded by ocean. The vault of the sky was a physical object resting upon the ocean's waters (and perhaps also upon pillars). Sweet (salt-free) waters below the Earth sometimes manifest themselves as springs. The Egyptian universe was also enclosed, but it was rectangular instead of round. Indeed, it was shaped much like an old-fashioned steamer trunk. (The Egyptians pictured the goddess Nut stretched across the sky as the enclosing dome.) What was the Hebrew view of the universe? "

From http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/bible/flatearth.htm

It's not really miraculous when the Babylonians already believed it.

If some folks later on decided that the earth was flat based on this word circle, thats their problem, not Gods. He never said it was flat.

Maybe they thought the world was flat based on the word circle because A CIRCLE IS FLAT!

Look, use your brain for once and realise that you are doing EXACTLY the same thing these flat earthers and geocentrics did in the past.  They tried to use the Bible as a science book based on their literal interpretation of scripture, just like you think evolution is a lie based on your literal interpretation of scripture.  It's really not hard to figure out that you're making the same mistake they did.

 

[Arikay]

Hehe.

Yep, when it seems to go against Followers beliefs it needs to be taken figurative, but when it goes with his beliefs it needs to be taken literal.

So, how can we tell what needs to be taken figurative and what needs to be taken literal?