Happy birthday On the Origin of Species

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essentialsaltes

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No, moder science needs a lot of re-vamping to occur on several of its aspects. For example they tell us that the dino's died out about 65 MY's ago. Because of the way they date rocks they determined 65 MY's was about right.

Then a game changer occurred. Scientist discovered soft biomaterial

Even if your description of Schweitzer's work was accurate, it still would not present any particular challenge for evolution. The lifespan of proteins is not the same as the evolution of species.

By just the right place means in a particular portion of the DNA that is responsible for the coding of a new trait.

Oh dear. There is no portion responsible for 'coding a new trait'.

There's also...for humans...like about 3.5 Billion places for a mutation to occur.

There are also nearly 8 billion humans. Each one of them has roughly 50-100 mutations. If they are randomly distributed, then dozens of people are walking around with mutations at each and every particular place in the genome.

But, lets say it did occur in the right place. What percentage of them would be beneficial? Or as you put it "produce better outcomes".

Since they're walking around, there are certainly dozens that aren't fatal.

Now the problem for the evo-camp gets worse. A second random...beneficial..mutation must occur down the future timeline somewhere in the animals progeny and add to the previous mutational change. Then the process has to be repeated in the progeny pool again, again and again....

Yeah, that's more or less how it works. I'm not sure why you think this is a problem, rather than a description of how it works.
 
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Even if your description of Schweitzer's work was accurate, it still would not present any particular challenge for evolution. The lifespan of proteins is not the same as the evolution of species.

Its about the problem the evo's have concerning deep time.

Oh dear. There is no portion responsible for 'coding a new trait'.

The DNA code instructs. It tells a body how it is going to be made. But you argued 'there is no portion responsible for 'coding a new trait''...the portion that contains the code to make a trait is responsible.

There are also nearly 8 billion humans. Each one of them has roughly 50-100 mutations. If they are randomly distributed, then dozens of people are walking around with mutations at each and every particular place in the genome.

Of the 50-100 mutations, how many would be said to enhance the benefit of an evolving species?



Since they're walking around, there are certainly dozens that aren't fatal.

If we got 50-100 mutations from our parents...and we have our own 50-100 mutations...and we give our kids our mutations as well as our parents...and grandparents....then they give their kids all of the mutations, and so on down the line....how long will it be before human DNA is mutated and damaged to the point humans go extinct?



Yeah, that's more or less how it works. I'm not sure why you think this is a problem, rather than a description of how it works.

That's where you're stuck in the mud...all you have is a simple description and no actual science to defend your position.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If science has so much overwhelming evidence..perhaps you can scientifically explain how random chance mutations have the ability to occur in just the right place, changing the DNA in just the right way...over and over again in an animals progeny... so that something like a dolphins echo-location system can evolve.
It is estimated that at least 99% of all life that ever existed is extinct. Evolution is a brutal process at times. Mutations are random, evolutionary processes are not. But instead of explaining something that took me months to understand I will give you that evolution did not happen. If evolution is a lie that in no way says anything about a god existing. Now show me that a god exists?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That's where you're stuck in the mud...all you have is a simple description and no actual science to defend your position.
This is ignorance of the theory or science or both. This shows that you have not studied evolution in any detail. The Theory of Evolution is predictive, falsifiable, repeatable and observable. It is science.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Its about the problem the evo's have concerning deep time.

There is no problem with 'deep time'. The scientist who made the discovery herself rejects your interpretation of the results.
 
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-57

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This is ignorance of the theory or science or both. This shows that you have not studied evolution in any detail. The Theory of Evolution is predictive, falsifiable, repeatable and observable. It is science.

Good thing I wasn't drinking milk....or it would had shot out of my nose.

Just for the record...when will you actually support evolutionism? Nothing but unsupported claims so far.
 
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essentialsaltes

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She has too....or lose grant money.

Pretty pathetic response. But at least we can dispense with your original claim that science does not support evolution. Now your position is science does support evolution, but it's all a conspiracy fueled by greed.

Just for the record...when will you actually support evolutionism? Nothing but unsupported claims so far.

This thread is about a nice big fat book full of support for evolution -- one that any intelligent lay person can read and appreciate.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Good thing I wasn't drinking milk....or it would had shot out of my nose.
Whatever.

Just for the record...when will you actually support evolutionism? Nothing but unsupported claims so far.
And this is a tactic anti-evolutionists use, maybe not on purpose. If you want to know the evidence that supports evolution a one post answer on this forum won't suffice. Or should not suffice for anyone. It took me about 6-8 months of studying off and on to understand the evidence. It is not hard, it just takes time if you are willing. There are multiple fields of study that come together to confirm the theory. Talk Origins has a good starter information called "29 evidences for evolution" if you are interested. To understand why scientists think that evolution happened you need to understand what common descent is, Phylogeny, natural selection, genetic drift, falsification, predictive power, vestigial and atavism, opportunism, constraint, speciation, horizontal gene transfer, genetic change, what the fossil record is etc. As well as what the actual evidences are and how they can be falsified.

There is always more to learn and I am no expert but the evidence is no secret, are you willing to look at it?
 
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-57

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Pretty pathetic response. But at least we can dispense with your original claim that science does not support evolution. Now your position is science does support evolution, but it's all a conspiracy fueled by greed.

Yes, the evo response is pretty pathetic. I can give you a case where a creationist was removed from his position because he said the biomaterial he was looking at was young.


This thread is about a nice big fat book full of support for evolution -- one that any intelligent lay person can read and appreciate.

So, whee is all of this support you have for evolutionism?
 
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-57

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Whatever.

And this is a tactic anti-evolutionists use, maybe not on purpose. If you want to know the evidence that supports evolution a one post answer on this forum won't suffice. Or should not suffice for anyone. It took me about 6-8 months of studying off and on to understand the evidence. It is not hard, it just takes time if you are willing. There are multiple fields of study that come together to confirm the theory. Talk Origins has a good starter information called "29 evidences for evolution" if you are interested. To understand why scientists think that evolution happened you need to understand what common descent is, Phylogeny, natural selection, genetic drift, falsification, predictive power, vestigial and atavism, opportunism, constraint, speciation, horizontal gene transfer, genetic change, what the fossil record is etc. As well as what the actual evidences are and how they can be falsified.

There is always more to learn and I am no expert but the evidence is no secret, are you willing to look at it?
Word. Only words.
 
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-57

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What do you think falsifies evolution in your studies of the subject? Why do you disbelieve evolution is happening?
The list is long.

So far I've presented two....biomaterial and the odds against mutations adding up. All I've gotten back is evo-lip service. Words. Only words.
 
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essentialsaltes

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So, whee is all of this support you have for evolutionism?

On the Origin of Species. You know, the topic of this thread. It is a great source of evidence and reasoning in support of evolution.

ON THE AFFINITIES OF EXTINCT SPECIES TO EACH OTHER, AND TO LIVING FORMS.

Let us now look to the mutual affinities of extinct and living species. All fall into a few grand classes; and this fact is at once explained on the principle of descent. The more ancient any form is, the more, as a general rule, it differs from living forms. But, as Buckland long ago remarked, extinct species can all be classed either in still existing groups, or between them. That the extinct forms of life help to fill up the intervals between existing genera, families, and orders, is certainly true; but as this statement has often been ignored or even denied, it may be well to make some remarks on this subject, and to give some instances. If we confine our attention either to the living or to the extinct species of the same class, the series is far less perfect than if we combine both into one general system. In the writings of Professor Owen we continually meet with the expression of generalised forms, as applied to extinct animals; and in the writings of Agassiz, of prophetic or synthetic types; and these terms imply that such forms are, in fact, intermediate or connecting links. Another distinguished palaeontologist, M. Gaudry, has shown in the most striking manner that many of the fossil mammals discovered by him in Attica serve to break down the intervals between existing genera. Cuvier ranked the Ruminants and Pachyderms as two of the most distinct orders of mammals; but so many fossil links have been disentombed that Owen has had to alter the whole classification, and has placed certain Pachyderms in the same sub-order with ruminants; for example, he dissolves by gradations the apparently wide interval between the pig and the camel. The Ungulata or hoofed quadrupeds are now divided into the even-toed or odd-toed divisions; but the Macrauchenia of South America connects to a certain extent these two grand divisions. No one will deny that the Hipparion is intermediate between the existing horse and certain other ungulate forms. What a wonderful connecting link in the chain of mammals is the Typotherium from South America, as the name given to it by Professor Gervais expresses, and which cannot be placed in any existing order. The Sirenia form a very distinct group of the mammals, and one of the most remarkable peculiarities in existing dugong and lamentin is the entire absence of hind limbs, without even a rudiment being left; but the extinct Halitherium had, according to Professor Flower, an ossified thigh-bone "articulated to a well-defined acetabulum in the pelvis," and it thus makes some approach to ordinary hoofed quadrupeds, to which the Sirenia are in other respects allied. The cetaceans or whales are widely different from all other mammals, but the tertiary Zeuglodon and Squalodon, which have been placed by some naturalists in an order by themselves, are considered by Professor Huxley to be undoubtedly cetaceans, "and to constitute connecting links with the aquatic carnivora."

Even the wide interval between birds and reptiles has been shown by the naturalist just quoted to be partially bridged over in the most unexpected manner, on the one hand, by the ostrich and extinct Archeopteryx, and on the other hand by the Compsognathus, one of the Dinosaurians—that group which includes the most gigantic of all terrestrial reptiles. Turning to the Invertebrata, Barrande asserts, a higher authority could not be named, that he is every day taught that, although palaeozoic animals can certainly be classed under existing groups, yet that at this ancient period the groups were not so distinctly separated from each other as they now are.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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The list is long.

So far I've presented two....biomaterial and the odds against mutations adding up. All I've gotten back is evo-lip service. Words. Only words.
Have you studied evolution from scientists and not just from apologists?

As far as the odds of mutations adding up. What do you mean? What are the odds of mutations happening so that we have the biodiversity we have today and not some other biodiversity?

Evolution has no goal. Things are no more evolved animals today than they ever have been, all species are in transition. Just because the odds of something are very low does not mean it cannot happen. Your life events everyday have a low probability of happening, yet it does everyday. What are the odds of you knowing what you are going to do, think, and have happen to you tomorrow and getting that 100% correct, in 10 years? I would say almost impossible but events have to occur. Just as if evolution is true mutations occur and some form of biodiversity has to have happened even if it is impossible to predict.

Another example is the lottery. In Texas the odds of winning are 1 in 25,827,165. It is almost impossible to win, however people win the lottery regularly. Odds don't mean anything in the lottery or evolution about winning or a series of mutations happening as long as the lottery is real and evolution is happening. The odds say nothing about if evolution is happening or not, that is a separate question.
 
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Have you studied evolution from scientists and not just from apologists?

Yup. Scientist show why it's a farce.

As far as the odds of mutations adding up. What do you mean? What are the odds of mutations happening so that we have the biodiversity we have today and not some other biodiversity?

What do I mean? Have you read my post? It sounds like you're responding with out understanding.

Do you understand just how complex a cell is? How complex the inner working of a cell is?

Evolution has no goal. Things are no more evolved animals today than they ever have been, all species are in transition. Just because the odds of something are very low does not mean it cannot happen. Your life events everyday have a low probability of happening, yet it does everyday. What are the odds of you knowing what you are going to do, think, and have happen to you tomorrow and getting that 100% correct, in 10 years? I would say almost impossible but events have to occur. Just as if evolution is true mutations occur and some form of biodiversity has to have happened even if it is impossible to predict.

It's more than odds...it's also about a code that programs. A code that is read by an organelle. Information that is used to create something...like another organelle. An organelle that has a purpose...Then when you look at the vast amount of them...the concept of chance formation goes away.



Another example is the lottery. In Texas the odds of winning are 1 in 25,827,165. It is almost impossible to win, however people win the lottery regularly. Odds don't mean anything in the lottery or evolution about winning or a series of mutations happening as long as the lottery is real and evolution is happening. The odds say nothing about if evolution is happening or not, that is a separate question.

Poor example. Mutations cause a change....a change to a functioning code...a change to how a protein folds. The odds would be much higher than 1 in 25,827,165. Sheeze, there are 3.5 billion base pairs. THEN....if the mutation occurs it has to change it in a beneficial way.....and you think it happens just like that? Then the mutation has to be added too...over and over again...Evolution fails.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Yup. Scientist show why it's a farce.
Who cares. I can show most biologists believe it is happening. The question is what you think and why? Seems like you are just looking for scientists that disagree. If you actually cared what scientists think at large you would have to conclude that it happened. In the US about 87% of biologists think evolution happened but only 32% of the general public believe this.

What do I mean? Have you read my post? It sounds like you're responding with out understanding.
This is why I asked the question.

Do you understand just how complex a cell is? How complex the inner working of a cell is?
Yes.

It's more than odds...it's also about a code that programs. A code that is read by an organelle. Information that is used to create something...like another organelle. An organelle that has a purpose...Then when you look at the vast amount of them...the concept of chance formation goes away.
How? What are the odds of chance formation? Mutations are random, evolution is not.

Poor example. Mutations cause a change....a change to a functioning code...a change to how a protein folds. The odds would be much higher than 1 in 25,827,165. Sheeze, there are 3.5 billion base pairs. THEN....if the mutation occurs it has to change it in a beneficial way.....and you think it happens just like that? Then the mutation has to be added too...over and over again...Evolution fails.
And you ignored my other example. This is a fallacy, just because you don't know how it can happen does not mean that it can't.

Mutations happen, they are either beneficial or not based on whether they give the species a better chance to survive over time. This has been observed over and over again. Evolution happens to species not individual organisms.

Do you believe mutations happen?
 
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pitabread

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Poor example. Mutations cause a change....a change to a functioning code...a change to how a protein folds. The odds would be much higher than 1 in 25,827,165. Sheeze, there are 3.5 billion base pairs. THEN....if the mutation occurs it has to change it in a beneficial way.....and you think it happens just like that? Then the mutation has to be added too...over and over again...Evolution fails.

This is an incorrect (and incomplete) understanding of how evolution works.
 
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