Hand to hand

[Antoninus Verus]

Will there be starved lions? Dangerous snake pits? Some kind of wheel spun by women wearing spiked leather outfits?

Coil...am I the only one who cringes when I see your name on the reply list?

It is not justice. Justice may be known by an omniscient god, but few, if any, individuals. And justice rendered by the many is inevitably lynch law.

It is vengeance at best.

And why cannot vengeance be justice?

Society has a right to protect itself. Those who (we think) transgressed may be locked away humanely to prevent further offense. We need neither kill or brutalize to serve that purpose.

But locking up doesnt work. I know guys who think nothing of getting sent to prison for a year or two. Imprisonment is not an effective means of deterant or re-habilitation. It costs society far too much money, money that could be better effected somewhere else and it doesnt work.

Do you really think that brutality, as proposed by some in this thread, would really profit society?

Yes I do. The proposed system is not without its faults and failures, but I think its far better off than the current system.

And cause people to become more bloodthirsty than they are?

People by nature are bloodthirsty, look at football, look at popular entertainment, we are ALREADY a bloodthirsty people. We are no different than the Romans. And the only reason the Romans fell was because they kept getting a hard-on for expansion and had a line of in-effective rulers.

But as one final question, what is the major benefit of this system over publicized executions? Executions can even draw a crowd today, when the crowd doesn't even see the actual execution. Historically they were always very popular, particularly if they were somewhat brutal. You could even throw in a little torture beforehand if you wanted to add some extended pain to the equation. But at least you aren't training criminals to become more efficient killers, you're not giving them hope for freedom, you're not putting them in a position in which they would be idolized. What advantages does trial by combat have over televised executions?

Profit. Nothing big can happen in this country unless it makes people money. There are LIMITLESS things you could do with that kind of thing in terms of making money. We are a SICK country, we will PAY for things like that. And the best part is, once youve made enough money to cover operating costs, the rest goes to a worthy charity that can help improve people's lives and futures

 

[Freodin]

Hey lets not knock it, I mean it worked in Ancient Rome. Its not as if that was a culture renowned for its brutality, Empire building, invading every where they could think of, murder, rioting and arson...

...oh.

Ghost

Oh!

No, that was not the way it worked in Ancient Rome. Gladiators were sportsmen. They were highly trained and highly honoured people.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

Yes but the problem was that highly experienced gladiators were often pitted against in-experienced fighters to ensure easy victory and improve the victory tally and value of the experienced gladiator. Thats why, if we do impliment this system, then we try as hard as possible NOT to let the private sector get thier hands on it.

 

[Gracchus]

It is not justice. Justice may be known by an omniscient god, but few, if any, individuals. And justice rendered by the many is inevitably lynch law. It is vengeance at best.

And why cannot vengeance be justice?

It might be, if we could be absolutely sure, or it could be even if only by accident. But if it is only by accident, is it fair? Some get justice, and some get something more or less? A mistake would call for more vengeance. It never ends. It escalates. That is the lesson of history.

Society has a right to protect itself. Those who (we think) transgressed may be locked away humanely to prevent further offense. We need neither kill or brutalize to serve that purpose.

But locking up doesnt work. I know guys who think nothing of getting sent to prison for a year or two. Imprisonment is not an effective means of deterant or re-habilitation. It costs society far too much money, money that could be better effected somewhere else and it doesnt work.

Are you proposing that we kill all felons?

As long as they are in a controlled environment, they are deterred. If they are ever to be let out, we should make the prison environment as normal as possible, so that the prisoner will not become institutionalized and beyond rehabilitation.

Do you think that the present penal system is designed to rehabilitate? One could hardly find in an institution for the criminally insane someone to design a more vicious and destructive system than the present one most common in the U.S. It could hardly have been more effectively designed if its sole purpose was to turn bad men into worse ones.

It has been known by psychologists for years that to be an effective deterrent, punishment must be sure and immediate. Our present system provides punishment that is neither.

No, that was not the way it worked in Ancient Rome. Gladiators were sportsmen. They were highly trained and highly honoured people.

The real monsters were in the stands. They still are.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Profit. Nothing big can happen in this country unless it makes people money. There are LIMITLESS things you could do with that kind of thing in terms of making money. We are a SICK country, we will PAY for things like that. And the best part is, once youve made enough money to cover operating costs, the rest goes to a worthy charity that can help improve people's lives and futures

I think you've missed my point. I'm pretty sure that the demand to see executions would be high enough that you could make a profit by broadcasting them, possibly in a pay-per-view format. If the money gained really is comparable to that gained from forming a gladitorial combat circut, isn't this the better system for what you are trying to do?

 

[Antoninus Verus]

It might be, if we could be absolutely sure, or it could be even if only by accident. But if it is only by accident, is it fair? Some get justice, and some get something more or less? A mistake would call for more vengeance. It never ends. It escalates. That is the lesson of history.

In any system there will be mistakes. That is un-avoidable. We can certainly do our best to ensure that no mistakes occur, but in the end, Im sure we have executed more than our share of innocent lives. Is that right? No it isnt. But Im not talking about the justice system, Im talking about the punishment system.

As long as they are in a controlled environment, they are deterred. If they are ever to be let out, we should make the prison environment as normal as possible, so that the prisoner will not become institutionalized and beyond rehabilitation.

Jail doesnt matter to most people who go there. Its a vacation for most of them. Many criminals come from places that make jail look like heaven. No jobs to worry about, food and lodging provided, dont have to pay taxes. Look at society today, jails overflowing, and tell me that prison time is an effective means of deterrent or punishment.

Do you think that the present penal system is designed to rehabilitate?

Originally, yes it was. The jail system is a good idea if you dont coddle your prisoners, which is what we're doing. When you start taking care of them like that, jail doesnt do anything because prisoners arent getting smacked around, theyre getting everything handed to them and that does not serve as punishment or rehabilitation.

One could hardly find in an institution for the criminally insane someone to design a more vicious and destructive system than the present one most common in the U.S.

I could easily design a more effective system and Im not insane (Atleast I hope not). Justice IS revenge, justice is everyone gets treated fairly. And getting taken care of for 50 some odd years for raping and murdering a 12 year old girl doesnt seem like justice to me.

It has been known by psychologists for years that to be an effective deterrent, punishment must be sure and immediate. Our present system provides punishment that is neither.

Very true

The real monsters were in the stands. They still are.

To quote George Carlin "The blood is already on our hands, folks. All we're talking about here is a matter of DEGREE"

I think you've missed my point. I'm pretty sure that the demand to see executions would be high enough that you could make a profit by broadcasting them, possibly in a pay-per-view format. If the money gained really is comparable to that gained from forming a gladitorial combat circut, isn't this the better system for what you are trying to do?

The goal is to create an effective and self-reliant means of punishment for criminals. No tax dollars would be spent to keep it going. As an added bonus, extra money being donated to charities or to victims associations to improve the lives of people who need it

 

[FadingWhispers3]

I think there a danger of glorification of criminals which survive longer than others.

As with all death related punishments there is the difficulty of racism. Certain segments of society seem to be assigned the death penalty (or in this case will be assigned to fight to the death) more than others even though the crime and circumstance remains the same. Indeed, the very 'justice' system whereby someone who can afford better lawyers than others puts the very term in question.

There is the danger of not punishing certain criminals who desire attention given to them by turning a profit from this. That is to say that some criminals would not feel punished by this as opposed to being erased from society silently and without a commotion.

There is the danger of creating a message, even if unintentionally, that might makes right as whoever survives does so by being more lethal.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Oh!

No, that was not the way it worked in Ancient Rome. Gladiators were sportsmen. They were highly trained and highly honoured people.

I was referring to Rome as a whole, not gladiators specifically. I am well aware the gladiators were not the rioters, the invaders and the arsonists. The point is that these were all common in Roman society, and the enjoyment of the Gladiatorial games were intended by the Emperor to pacify the masses, to give them an outlet for their violent urges. the fact that Rome was still plagued by riots, arson and a high murder rate suggests it didn’t work.

Furthermore, whilst Gladiators were highly trained and highly skilled, there is not a great deal of evidence that they were highly honoured. As I recall they were buried a long way away from the honoured citizens, and they were largely slaves. they were highly honoured for slaves, certainly, but they were still property.*

Ghost

*In most cases, although freemen could volunteer for the profession if they so chose, and a fair number did.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

The real monsters were in the stands. They still are.

I am pleased to see some one got my point.

Ghost

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Jail doesnt matter to most people who go there. Its a vacation for most of them. Many criminals come from places that make jail look like heaven.

What do you base this on and how do you explain the increase in suicide amongst imprisoned felons? Or the increase in stress related illness?

Take the UK where our prison regimen is considered liberal by comparison the USA, yet the suicide rate is more than double that of the general population.

What about the various prison studies conducted since the 50s, none of which fit with your statement?

Do you have evidence for your statement, I would be interested in it since it seems at odds with most the evidence gathered over the years.

Ghost

 

[Madcoil]

Coil...am I the only one who cringes when I see your name on the reply list?

I don't know. Should we do a poll?
But I'm telling you it would be great. You'd tie murderers to big wheels and turn the, around and around faster and faster until their head was ripped off by the force. We'd probably have to tie some kind of metal ball on a chain around their neck to make it come off more easily. Add some chicks in metal and leather to that and geeks would flock from the fjords to witness the spectacles.
Child molesters would have copper babies shot at them with a cannon, or thrown from the crowd.

I can see it now... Hilgunda, blonde german police-officer in some sort of satin uniform, with a punch like a freight train and legs that go all the way up to her hips... Put her on some sort of judging chair, give her a mace and flail, and have her "question" the already convicted on such subjects as geography and modern history.
Take a dive into human anotomy with inquisitor Harleskin.

It would be more than punishment and revenge... It would be an education.