Hamas-Israel News Thread

SoldierOfTheKing · Oct 21, 2023

rjs330 said:
In fact in this case it is not a war crime.

It’s a war crime one one way or another. If Hamas was firing rockets from the position, it’s a Hamas war crime. Otherwise, it’s an Israeli war crime. The Geneva Convention is clear on that.

Landon Caeli · Oct 21, 2023

rjs330 said:
I completely agree. They have shown NO ability to restraint themselves. I mean they use hospitals for crying out loud. What makes anyone believe the safe zone would be left alone?

And of course the media would start blaming Israel as soon as Israel lifted a finger to stop it.

I'm afraid I don't know how to respond without coming off as too harsh.

wing2000 · Oct 21, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
Israel to ‘hand control of Gaza back to Palestinian Authority’ once Hamas wiped out

Israel to ‘hand control of Gaza back to Palestinian Authority’ once Hamas wiped out

Officials say the Jewish state does not want to occupy the Strip but create a ‘new security reality’ instead

www.telegraph.co.uk

....and we, the tax payers will end up rebuilding Gaza. Just as our tax dollars are funding thouands of bombs used to destroy the very buildings and infrastructure we'll end up rebuilding.

Madness.

Landon Caeli · Oct 21, 2023

wing2000 said:
....and we, the tax payers will end up rebuilding Gaza. Just as our tax dollars are funding thouands of bombs used to destroy the very buildings and infrastructure we'll end up rebuilding.

Madness.

Let the Muslim majority countries do it. Why should we.

They're the ones who funneled the weapons in there, that caused this whole disaster... Let them clean up their own mess.

wing2000 · Oct 21, 2023

rjs330 said:
I'm not buying it. If it were your family members who were burned alive and had their babies heads chopped off in front of them i don't think you would be sounding so reasonable. Especially if you knew there was a headquarters and weaponry upon the hospital. Having the hospital evacuate is reasonable under the circumstances.

I'm not buying the notion that if a hospital is warned, it's a fair target.
Nor do I accept all Palestinians should have to pay for the sins of their fanatical Hamas leaders. The fact is, tens of thouands of Palestinians will die if Israel proceeds with an invasion.

wing2000 · Oct 21, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
Let the Muslim majority countries do it. Why should we.

....they will, but you can bet the US will be a major contributor. We just released another 100 million in humanitarian. And of course we'll spend another 15-20 billion rebuilding the Israeli army....

Landon Caeli · Oct 21, 2023

wing2000 said:
....they will, but you can bet the US will be a major contributor. We just released another 100 million in humanitarian. And of course we'll spend another 15-20 billion rebuilding the Israeli army....

Ugh..!

If stuff like this is passing without a Speaker of the House, then I wonder if having a Speaker could have prevented it. I'm not an expert on American politics, but you're right, it's madness.

I would give Gaza the absolute minimum, just enough to save face. And let the Arabs fork it out... They're oil rich.

ralliann · Oct 21, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
If it were a humanitarian crisis, then surrounding Arab countries would be compelled to accept them. Like they did the Syrians before.

Where they originally came from. They are not native to that land.

ralliann · Oct 21, 2023

JosephZ said:
What would the Israelis do with all the Palestinians who refuse to leave Gaza? Remove them by force. Kill them? You have to remember that there are close to 2 million Palestinian citizens living in Israel and another 3 million living in the West Bank. What do you think their reaction would be? How would other Arab nations respond?

Any attempt to remove all of the Palestinians living in Gaza would be disastrous and would only empower Hamas and other terrorist groups in the region.

Why won't their own people allow them back in?

ralliann · Oct 21, 2023

durangodawood said:
Lots of ancient history here. None of which is really valid for conferring land title in a rule of law based order.

The alternative is a world in which people simply do and take what they want by force. Generally people are unhappy with the misery and instability of that kind of chaos.

Vanellus · Oct 21, 2023

rjs330 said:
Do you blanketly condemn Hamas for all their actions before and during this conflict?

Nonsense question as if anyone will know what all their actions are. Betrays a troubling divisive attitude.

wing2000 · Oct 21, 2023

Landon Caeli said:
Ugh..!

If stuff like this is passing without a Speaker of the House, then I wonder if having a Speaker could have prevented it. I'm not an expert on American politics, but you're right, it's madness.

I would give Gaza the absolute minimum, just enough to save face. And let the Arabs fork it out... They're oil rich.

No bills, including spending bills, will pass until a Speaker is appointed. Biden has requested 106 Billion in additonal spending as follows:
$14 billion i Israel
$61 billion Ukraine
$14 billion for immigration priorities
$10 billion for humanitarian aid

Red Gold · Oct 21, 2023

it was a jihad rocket …. not an israel rocket …. that hit the hospital

Pommer · Oct 21, 2023

Red Gold said:
it was a jihad rocket …. not an israel rocket …. that hit the hospital

I’ve heard conflicting accounts, where’d you get your information?

jacks · Oct 21, 2023

Pommer said:
I’ve heard conflicting accounts, where’d you get your information?

HERE (CNN) Or HERE (Politico).

rjs330 · Oct 21, 2023

wing2000 said:
I'm not buying the notion that if a hospital is warned, it's a fair target.
Nor do I accept all Palestinians should have to pay for the sins of their fanatical Hamas leaders. The fact is, tens of thouands of Palestinians will die if Israel proceeds with an invasion.

That's the way of war. If Hamas and the he Palestinians had left Israel alone and his wouldn't be happening.

German citizens wouldn't have died if Hitler wouldn't have attacked other countries. The Japanese wouldn't have died if they wouldn't have tried to conquer the South Pacific and bombed Pearl Harbor.

rjs330 · Oct 21, 2023

Vanellus said:
Nonsense question as if anyone will know what all their actions are. Betrays a troubling divisive attitude.

So I he answer is no. Got it.

har_habayit · Oct 21, 2023

JosephZ said:
I don't see that from looking at that poll.

Mr. Joseph, I have a question. Do you think that if the Israelis showed a good faith effort towards the regular citizens of Gaza, Judea, and Samaria, that there could be real peace?

I haven't been following this unfolding situation very closely because it is such a heated, divisive issue, and I just can't afford to have my blood pressure whipped around like that. So I basically follow what is happening on this website.

It seems to me since this chaos started that no Palestinian representative or sympathetic party is admitting that the Jews have a valid claim and right to territory in the holy land. I am not saying they haven't done, and if something like this HAS been admitted, I would like to know.

But the reason I ask is because if popular sentiment in the Palestinian territories and across the Arab street is that Israel is an illegitimate state established on violence and oppression, that this is not quite an entity you can do negotiations with at all.

Israel will be forced to negotiate and cooperate with its neighbors moving forward. After all, it's a state the size of New Jersey surrounded by countries who would love to push a button and make the whole land Muslim again. I don't think anyone could doubt that this is what the vast majority of Arab people and maybe even Iranians want. However, Muslims are dealing with the current reality on the ground and they realize it is probably unlikely that they can completely wipe out Israel.

Unfortunately for Israel, it seems clear to me that the surrounding nations and terrorist proxies are starting to change the opinion that Israel just has to be accepted. They believe Israel was exposed on Oct 7th as some kind of weak state. I think a lot of people who were resigned to Israel's power are now emboldened to take the step that apparently they always wanted to take: destroy Israel.

So, my question is, can Israel even engage in any sort of peace negotiations after this campaign? I think you would say that it depends on whether Israel participates in making life better for the Palestinians. I think that's reasonable to say. However, if a large contingent of Israel's neighbors are either terrorists or support politicians and parties that call for Israel's annihilation, can Israel even hold negotiations with people like that?

It seems to me that, outside the providence of God, there is no way forward for the Jewish state. I personally do not favor Jewish lives over Palestinian lives. In fact, I am disgusted about the fact that 90% of Israelis do not even believe in God at all. I think it's a stain to the holy land to have so many unbelievers and traitors to righteousness living there. I obviously do believe in the return of the Jews to Zion and Jerusalem but sometimes I have doubts that THIS is that prophetic fulfillment. I guess we will soon find out. If God doesn't intervene for the modern state of Israel, I don't think they will last much longer. I think the Iranians, their proxies, and the Arab street smells blood, and they feel that this is the right moment to carry out their demonic, satanic, Nazi agenda towards the Jews.

Forgive the length, here.

har_habayit · Oct 21, 2023

I do also have to mention something of interest here.

I remember hearing about a certain terrorist held responsible for 9/11 in the U.S. writing letters "to the American people." I think studying these documents is probably a good idea, since the ideas contained in them are used to justify violence against Western interests. One can see that the logic contained in the letters applies very much to our current day. If anything, based on the logic of Bin Laden's letters, it seems that these terrorists have even more "justification" to do to the U.S. what they did then.

The letters of the terrorist who helped plan the 9/11 attacks in the U.S. are widely available online. After reading some of them, it is clear that the violence committed is waged BECAUSE the Americans have bases and troops throughout the Middle East and because they bow down to the Jewish lobby and support an Israeli "oppressor" in a Muslim land, who is oppressing Palestinians. Read these excerpts:

"They threw hundreds of thousands of soldiers against us and have formed an alliance with the Israelis to oppress us and occupy our land; that was the reason (emphasis mine) for our response on the eleventh."

"Palestine has been under occupation for decades, and none of your presidents talked about it until after September 11 when Bush realized that your oppression and the tyranny against us were part of the reason for the attack. Then he talked about the necessity for two states. Obama is trying to address the issue with the same solutions suggested by his predecessor; they are quilting fruitless solutions not of concern to us. If you want a real settlement that guarantees your security in your country and safeguards your economy from being depleted in a manner similar to our war of attrition against the Soviet Union, then you have to implement a roadmap that returns the Palestine land to us, all of it, from the sea to the river, it is an Islamic land not subject to being traded or granted to any party. (Bold type and underline is mine). In conclusion: Be assured that we do not fight for mere killing but to stop the killing of our people. It is a sin to kill a person without proper, justifiable cause, but terminating his killer is a right. You should be aware that justice is the strongest army and security offers the best livelihood; you lost it by your own making when you supported the Israelis in occupying our land and killing our brothers in Palestine. The road to safety starts with the stopping of aggression."

There is no proper way to say this, but UBL was actually a pretty mild terrorist compared to Hamas and Hezbollah. I believe the Ayatollahs and their proxies are far more vicious than even Al Qaeda and they have far more "reason" to be upset with the western world due to our moral degeneracy, which is actually far worse than it was in 2001.

So, for even UBL, the holy land is a strictly Islamic land. It cannot be granted, especially through violence and oppression, to any other group. I do not believe it is possible for an Israeli presence to negotiate peace with any Muslim entity that believes this way. It would be like trying to "negotiate" a Jewish temple and prayer time on the Temple Mount. The Muslims firmly believe that non-Muslims do NOT have the right to pray atop the Temple Mount. It is not, and ever will be, a point of negotiation for them.

So, my conclusion is that either:

1) the Israelis have to agree to voluntarily vacate the land and form a state in Alaska or elsewhere, as former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stated: "If you [Europeans] committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price? This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the US, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country."

or, 2) fight to the death and make peace with no one, fighting all the Arabs around and the ayatollahs.

The reason I feel like, "in the natural", Israel has no future is because there is no way for them to make peace with hundreds of millions of people who believe they are an illegitimate oppressor state occupying strictly Islamic lands and killing Muslims. The only peaceful way for the Israelis out of this situation is simply to pack their bags and move to Alaska, Canada, or some other place. The Muslims will never make peace with Israelis "occupying" lands that they believe are Islamic.

I share the excerpts from UBL's letters to warn people that the logic that was used to execute a 9/11 style attack is just as "valid" for the terrorists today as it was back then. In fact, in their minds, it is probably far more justified, since America is even more morally corrupt today than it was in 2001, and the American support for the "occupation" is stronger today than it was in 2001.

civilwarbuff · Oct 22, 2023

Vanellus said:
You mean if the claim includes a quote because there have been claims made in posts in this thread which have not been backed up by sources in those posts.

Don't feel shy about pointing that fact out then, keep everyone honest.

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