• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Guns

Your View on Firearms

  • I have shot a firearm before, and I believe gun ownership is a right.

  • I have shot a firearm before, and I believe gun ownership should be denied.

  • I have not shot a firearm before, but I believe it is a right to own firearms.

  • I have not shot a firearm before, and I believe that gun ownership should be denied.

  • I own at least one firearm.

  • I don't own any firearms.

  • I have never shot a firearm, and I have no stance.

  • I have shot a firearm, but I have no stance.

  • Pro Gun Control

  • Pro Gun Rights


Results are only viewable after voting.

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Saying that someone does not have an unconditional right to bear arms suggests that others have an unconditional right to initiate violence against them to prevent it. So, from where do you derive this unconditional right to use violence against those who have not harmed you nor threatened to do so? Note that such a right must supercede the self-ownership of the would-be gun owner, so in essence it posits that you (the anti-gun advocate) actually have a higher claim on the life, liberty, and property of another person than that person has himself. I look forward to seeing your argument for the idea that you own other people.
 
Upvote 0
M

MacNeil, D.

Guest
Saying that someone does not have an unconditional right to bear arms suggests that others have an unconditional right to initiate violence against them to prevent it.....

No constitutional right is unconditional. That's basic constitutional law and your inference is odd to say the least.

And if you're addressing me, and think I'm an anti-gun nut, all I can say is this: I average over 10,000 registered ATA targets a year. That's competition trap in the US. Probably double that number of all targets.
 
Upvote 0

MehGuy

A member of the less neotenous sex..
Site Supporter
Jul 23, 2007
56,363
11,082
Minnesota
✟1,373,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
My thoughts on firearms? I think people have the right to firearm protection, even if the ends means results in more national deaths. I just can't get the image out of my mind of someone's house being broken to and being violated and raped and couldn't do much about it without a gun, even if most the the attempts backfired.

Wow I hope this post doesn't get hammered.
 
Upvote 0
M

MacNeil, D.

Guest
My thoughts on firearms? I think people have the right to firearm protection, even if the ends means results in more national deaths. I just can't get the image out of my mind of someone's house being broken to and being violated and raped and couldn't do much about it without a gun, even if most the the attempts backfired.

Wow I hope this post doesn't get hammered.

That's a fair statement.
 
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No constitutional right is unconditional. That's basic constitutional law and your inference is odd to say the least.

Did I mention the constitution?

People are created with their rights. The constitution only recognizes (or fails to recognize) them. The constitution could say that everyone has the right to keep and bear arms, or it could say that only police and military can, or that nobody can. It can say that 2 + 2 = a potato, for all I care. Words on paper mean nothing to me if they do not line up with what is true.

What is true is that every person owns himself; nobody has a greater claim on his life and property than he, himself does. The right to keep and bear arms follows directly from that fact, as without the ability to equip himself to defend his life and property, his prior claim on them is worthless.
 
Upvote 0
M

MacNeil, D.

Guest
Did I mention the constitution?

People are created with their rights. The constitution only recognizes (or fails to recognize) them. ...

I see you're living in the US, I'm going to assume you're living in a a United States in alternate universe and just visiting here, because here, the right to keep and bear arms is not unconditional. Look up any of the recent gun cases that our version of the USSC has published.

You can complain about it, and observe that where you live things are different, but as long as you are here, you have to live with it.

Coming from your reality, you won't believe this, but here if you get arrested for a firearms violation, and claim that you have an unconditional right to bear arms, you're still going to prison.
 
Upvote 0

mjmcmillan

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2009
2,555
896
71
Out there. Thataway.
✟5,089.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I have the right of freedom of speech. At least, I'm supposed to. That right is NOT unconditional though, watch what happens if I yell "Fire!" in a theater or make racial slurs in a neighborhood populated by the people I might make slurs against.

Owning guns falls into that area too. The right to keep and bear arms exists, but it's not unconditional. If it were, then violent criminals in prison would be able to arm themselves-- who could stop them? Not that they don't do it already, but we're talking legally and morally enforcible rights here.

Right now, my brother can't legally own a gun. Thank God for that, at times he's crackers enough to shoot things you'd rather he didn't shoot.

In this nation, your right to keep and bear arms gets revoked if you've been charged in a domestic violence incident. I found that out by watching what my now-ex wife had to go through while getting her licenses for security work. The government will make your FOID card VOID if you get into a domestic spat and you're the troublemaker on record.

Ex-cons can't legally obtain guns. If gun ownership was an unconditional right, what right would we have to say a guy who got out after serving time on an armed robbery conviction couldn't arm himself to the teeth again? After all, it's an unconditional right, isn't it???

So, maybe there ARE conditions after all. Just like with everything else in life. Even a person's right to life itself can be forfeit-- biblically-- if he/she violates certain laws and those laws justly call for the ultimate penalty.

There is no such thing as an unconditional right. Never has been. Never will be.
 
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That is based on an incomplete understanding of the nature of rights. Rights, when understood as noncontradictory axioms, do not require conditions because they contain their limitations in their expression.

For example, property rights can be described thus: "All persons have the right to the full and exclusive use of their property." That statement imples that nobody has the right to use another person's property without his permission, so it is redundant to add "as long as they don't damage another person's property". Stating the redundant part can help to clarify, but it is not necessary to make the statement internally consistent.

The argument for arms is derived directly from the argument for the right to life: "All persons have the right to maintain and protect their lives." This position implies that whenever someone initiates force against another or threatens to do so, that other person has the right to repel that force or dispel that threat, as either would prevent him from maintaining his life. That in turn requires that a person be able to equip himself toward that defensive activity, as a prohibition against such equipment would constitute an intitiation of force, which is proscribed by the initial right to life. Therefore a prohibition against arms is an abridgement of the right to life.

Since a person has the right to dispel a threat against his life, a person exhibiting the intent and means to do violent harm against a non-aggressor may be justly prohibited from bearing arms (deprived of the means to do harm). This does not make the right "conditional", because it is implied by the original statement. And it does not justify the arbitrary restriction against "felons" owning guns, as many felons have never demonstrated the intent to harm another. Nor does it necessarily justify prohibiting arms from the mentally unsound, because not everyone who is mentally unsound is a threat to others or themselves.

As far as the freedom of speech goes, that is also subordinate to property rights. You don't have the right to say ANYTHING I don't like when you're in my house; if I say you can't say the word "tangerine", and you do, I can declare you a trespasser and kick you out. That might make me a jerk, but it would be within my rights. Likewise, you don't have the right to impede the fulfillment of a moviegoer's contract with the theater to enjoy a movie in peace and quiet. That is also an issue of property rights. If there were a theater that declared that movies may be subject to interruption by people yelling "fire" at any time, they could sell tickets with those conditions attatched, and you could yell "fire" to your heart's content without violating the rights of the theater or your fellow moviegoers.

The rights described in the constitution are not declarations of natural rights. Rather, they are prohibitions against the government infringing on natural rights which are already assumed to exist. And unfortunately, they are incomplete recognitions of natural rights, vaguely defined, and in some cases, contradictory.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Blackguard_

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Feb 9, 2004
9,468
374
43
Tucson
✟33,992.00
Faith
Lutheran
MacNeil said:
Owning guns falls into that area too. The right to keep and bear arms exists, but it's not unconditional.
"That area" you describe is using something you have a right to for a criminal purpose(i.e. something you don't have a right to do), fraud and inciting violence in the examples given.

The first amendment doesn't mean I have the right to commit fraud or libel/slander and other crimes involving printed/spoken words anymore than the second amendment means I have the right to commit armed robbery.

Do you think we should ban a person who commits computer crimes from owning a computer, a newspaperman who prints libel from owning a press, or someone who runs a Ponzi scheme from owning a phone and printer?

That's the kind of thing you're talking about with guns being a conditional right. They don't practice the equilvalent with the first amendment. The "yelling fire in a crowded theater" type examples don't apply.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mjmcmillan

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2009
2,555
896
71
Out there. Thataway.
✟5,089.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Yes and no. "That area" you describe is using something you have a right to for a criminal purpose(i.e. something you don't have a right to do), fraud and inciting violence in the examples given.

The first amendment doesn't mean I have the right to commit fraud or libel/slander and other crimes involving printed/spoken words anymore than the second amendment means I have the right to commit armed robbery.

Do you think we would ban a person who commits computer crimes from owning a computer, or a newspaperman who prints libel from owning a press, or someone who prints fraudulent documents from owning a printer?

That's what you're talking about with guns being a conditional right. They don't practice the equilvalent with the first amendment. Someone convicted of computer fraud can buy a computer no questions asked on the way home from prison.

It's been done. It might take a bit of searching but I seem to remember somebody being forbidden access to a computer because he committed a crime with one. Hacking, if I remember the story right. Then there's the guys caught with child porn on their machines. The machines get confiscated and sometimes the guy gets told "No more for you, pal". So, it happens. Enforcement might leave something to be desired, which incidentally is true of gun crime as well--- it may be illegal for a guy convicted of gang crimes to own a gun but that never seems to slow them down much in acquiring a new weapon to replace the one the police got from them when they were busted last time.

I stick by this: There is no such thing as an unconditional right.
 
Upvote 0

Blackguard_

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Feb 9, 2004
9,468
374
43
Tucson
✟33,992.00
Faith
Lutheran
mjm said:
It's been done. It might take a bit of searching but I seem to remember somebody being forbidden access to a computer because he committed a crime with one. Hacking, if I remember the story right. Then there's the guys caught with child porn on their machines. The machines get confiscated and sometimes the guy gets told "No more for you, pal". So, it happens.

Oh, Ok.
I stick by this: There is no such thing as an unconditional right.
Perhaps. It might that's so or maybe a right without conditions is hard to formulate.
macfall said:
This does not make the right "conditional", because it is implied by the original statement.

It's not. The original statement also implies an agessor has the right to shoot a victim who fights back in order to protect his life.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MacFall

Agorist
Nov 24, 2007
12,726
1,171
Western Pennsylvania, USA
✟48,198.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's not. The original statement also implies an agessor has the right to shoot a victim who fights back in order to protect his life.

No, it doesn't - because the non-initiation of force, which permits defensive force, is implied in the original statement, and for an aggressor to resist defensive force is nothing but a continuation of the original aggression. Since that takes some critical thought (something that the victims of government school sorely lack these days) to infer, there's nothing wrong with clarifying it with something like "all non-initators of violence" instead of "all persons". But that would be a redundant statement for the sake of clarity, not a condition.
 
Upvote 0

Blackguard_

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Feb 9, 2004
9,468
374
43
Tucson
✟33,992.00
Faith
Lutheran
macfall said:
Since that takes some critical thought (something that the victims of government school sorely lack these days) to infer, there's nothing wrong with clarifying it with something like "all non-initators of violence" instead of "all persons". But that would be a redundant statement for the sake of clarity, not a condition.
Yeah, you're right. I think I was getting too nit-picky or something. It is implied you give up rights if you violate the rights of others, such as being the initiator of violence and thereby forfeiting your right to defend your life in the process.:doh:
 
Upvote 0