Guns

[kopilo]

So guns caused school shootings? That is what you are concluding.

Do cars cause accidents?

Does the number of cars on the roads increase the risk of car accidents?

 

[charlie_hunter]

cars do cause car accidents............without cars there could be no car crashes. duh! but cars........UNLIKE GUNS have a legitimate use. cars are designed for transport. Guns are designed for killing people. I'll type it in italics to try and get through the culture barrier and the american upbringing

cars, household knives, baseball bats, etc do not kill people when used correctly. guns DO kill people when used correctly. that is the difference. GUNS ARE DESIGNED TO KILL PEOPLE. THOU SHALL NOT KILL, CAN YOU SEE THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST?

self defence is an argument, but a moot point. but i'd rather face a knife (which i have) then a gun. saying 'criminals will allways be able to get guns' is a defeatist attitude and it does not make the ownership of guns any more legitimate. People will allways drink drive and speed on the roads......it dosent mean we should make it legal.

Someone said something about gun crime in australia? it's so low it's nearly off the radar (i dont know anyone who's been the victim of it and to my knowledge i dont know anyone who knows someone who's been the victim) anyway. those few guns that are used in crime here.............guess where they come from??? That's right, America!!

But banning weapons would not be championing peace, it would be well-intentioned foolishness that would only bring about more violence. In the 1920's, we tried something called "prohibition." It made alcohol, which had been a staple of American culture, illegal. All prohibition accomplished was provide a fertile environment for organized crime. Violent mobs came to power, selling alcohol. A ban on guns would just do the same thing, since guns are another staple of our culture.

So we're going to legalise ICE, Heroin etc? that's a massive funding point in orginised crime. drugs is a pretty big staple in australian and american culture. why not keep mass legalised prostitution and abortion (this is not the start of a seperate debate). the more we make it easier to do so, the less it will happen!
Porn is also a massive cultural force in America (and the rest of the western world) but Christian groups are trying to get it banned...............that would make the problem worse, no?

That's a big depature from logic there.

 

[kopilo]

Guns can be designed for hunting, such as to kull a species which has overpopulated an area or shouldn´t even be in the country to start with.. Just like Australia and foxes, rabbits, etc.

 

[charlie_hunter]

Guns can be designed for hunting, such as to kull a species which has overpopulated an area or shouldn´t even be in the country to start with.. Just like Australia and foxes, rabbits, etc.

true, then it becomes an agracultural tool. but no one is arguing for that. the argument is for guns for self defence and 'government regulation' which i think means shooting polititions who you dont agree with........something like that.

 

[Zoomer]

There will always be murder in this world. You can take the guns, take the knives, but you really would have to take the people. There was murder long before guns were around, they used spears, rocks, rope, their hands....so to get rid of guns in the name of reducing murder or crime is nothing less than a fantasy. It's kind of like world peace, it will never happen until the world is rid of humans. This is coming from someone who has never owned a gun and probably never will, but I believe in an individuals right if they so choose to bear arms. What makes me laugh are those gun turn in programs, where they you a gift if you turn in a gun. You know how many drug dealers, murders, and other criminals actually turn in their guns for a $25 gift card? So effectively they are taking guns from people who are legally allowed to own them and responsibily use them. How does that change anything?

 

[Tuffguy]

cars do cause car accidents............without cars there could be no car crashes. duh! but cars........UNLIKE GUNS have a legitimate use. cars are designed for transport. Guns are designed for killing people. I'll type it in italics to try and get through the culture barrier and the american upbringing

cars, household knives, baseball bats, etc do not kill people when used correctly. guns DO kill people when used correctly. that is the difference. GUNS ARE DESIGNED TO KILL PEOPLE. THOU SHALL NOT KILL, CAN YOU SEE THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST?

self defence is an argument, but a moot point. but i'd rather face a knife (which i have) then a gun. saying 'criminals will allways be able to get guns' is a defeatist attitude and it does not make the ownership of guns any more legitimate. People will allways drink drive and speed on the roads......it dosent mean we should make it legal.

Someone said something about gun crime in australia? it's so low it's nearly off the radar (i dont know anyone who's been the victim of it and to my knowledge i dont know anyone who knows someone who's been the victim) anyway. those few guns that are used in crime here.............guess where they come from??? That's right, America!!



So we're going to legalise ICE, Heroin etc? that's a massive funding point in orginised crime. drugs is a pretty big staple in australian and american culture. why not keep mass legalised prostitution and abortion (this is not the start of a seperate debate). the more we make it easier to do so, the less it will happen!
Porn is also a massive cultural force in America (and the rest of the western world) but Christian groups are trying to get it banned...............that would make the problem worse, no?

That's a big depature from logic there.

Instead of using italics to get through the culture barrier, you could use logic.

Guns are intended to kill... no question about it. You say that like it is profound. You are also confusing killing someone with homocide! How is defending your family homocide?

So you carry a knife? That is a weapon. I could easily kill a man with 2 slashes of a knife in one second, with my training and your knife. Would that mean your knife was to blame? If they banned knives would that decrease murders?

Clearly, we have differences in thought process and cultural differences. I grew up shooting for fun. I have many, perfectly legal guns and many different types. I have NEVER had anyone i know get shot in any way.

The fact is that the cities here are very dangerous. Not because of guns, but because of drugs and all crime that is related to drugs.

In the country here, (which is LOADED with guns) you have very very very very little crime. Why? No street crime, no drugs and none of the social ills that cities bring.

 

[Tuffguy]

true, then it becomes an agracultural tool. but no one is arguing for that. the argument is for guns for self defence and 'government regulation' which i think means shooting polititions who you dont agree with........something like that.

Or it could mean, preventing the Nazi's from killing millions of Jews.

The first step was confiscation of firearms. (gun control)

 

[kopilo]

I believe gun regulations are important, it is not like a kitchen knife, in order to use it to kill someone it has to be a fairly deliberate attempt, I mean people have accidents and cut off fingers etc but generally speaking that is not going to kill a person.

If we take two items which can cause death by accident, cars and guns. We know that people tend to make mistakes, so an increases in uses of these products generally means an increase of accidents using these products. The unfortunate part is that an accident using these products has a high chance of resulting in mortality.

That is not to say that we should remove all guns and cars but rather to be more selective with who we allow to posses such items.

In both countries, America and Australia there are gun laws which determine who can carry a gun (for example Australian police can carry a gun).

I honestly don't think that if both countries were to have the same policy on gun laws that it would have the same effect because of the social differences between America and Australia. Gun laws were not originally part of the Australian constitution as a statement for freedom.

Just to add, because there is less reported crime, doesn't nessicarily mean there is actually less crime, it could mean that more victims are being quiet.

 

[TwistTim]

Could it be because Australia was a penal colony and the United States of America started out with the best and the brightest of the UK seeking Religious Freedom from a tyrannical dictatorship?

That might just have a thing to do with Australia's Original Citizenry not having guns..... then again, what do I know? I'm just a student of history after all....

It's a cliche, but it's true, Guns don't kill people, people kill people

if I'm desperate enough, I can using only my own body kill someone.... and I'm no martial artist....

As far as your knives argument goes.... Guns do have a useful purpose.... it's called hunting for food.... killing someone should always be a last resort....

that said.... caffeine can kill you, so can smokes, and drinking, and cars, and breathing, and some insulations, and botox, and a lot of other things.... should we ban all of those? or are you just opposed to guns because of the quick death factor? then ban arrows, knives(one slash to the neck hitting the jugular and that's it) forks, thanks to MythBusters the following combo: cardboard trays, paper towel roles, and glue....
also spears, javelins, etc......

Also, because Books can be used to bludgeon someone over the head, let's ban them.....

 

[kopilo]

If this is in response to my post, it is rather obvious that you did not read it all. Let alone any subsequent posts.

As far as your knives argument goes.... Guns do have a useful purpose.... it's called hunting for food.... killing someone should always be a last resort....

A purpose other then kill humans has been stated in post number 123.

that said.... caffeine can kill you, so can smokes, and drinking, and cars, and breathing, and some insulations, and botox, and a lot of other things.... should we ban all of those? or are you just opposed to guns because of the quick death factor? then ban arrows, knives(one slash to the neck hitting the jugular and that's it) forks, thanks to MythBusters the following combo: cardboard trays, paper towel roles, and glue....
also spears, javelins, etc......

Also, because Books can be used to bludgeon someone over the head, let's ban them.....

Once again you failed to read.

That is not to say that we should remove all guns and cars but rather to be more selective with who we allow to posses such items.

My argument isn't for or against guns being legal, it is for strict controls/laws being placed upon them.

Ergo "guns don't kill people, people kill people" doesn't apply, considering I am saying to place laws upon the people not the gun itself.

 

[Blackguard_]

Ok so you own a gun to protect your family, so I give you this scenario; It's the middle of the night, your family is asleep, you hear the window slide open and someone creep in downstairs, so you grab yout gun and rush down. The person emits a scream upon seeing you, which startles you, thus encouraging you to fire your weapon, the trigger of which your finger was resting on. Then you realise it was your 17 year old daughter sneaking in after curfew, and you've just shot her in the chest.
How can this be avoided you ask?

With trigger discipline. The increased likelyhood of negligent dsicharges is preciscely why not resting your finger on the trigger is stressed. (not to mention being sure of your target)

You are also confusing killing someone with homocide! How is defending your family homocide?

Actually, killing someone is homocide.

 

[docholiday]

If you think Killing people in any scenario is wrong you should read the Old testament .. God not only allowed but ORDER entire nations of immoral to be killed by the Israelites.... David who's is referred as the "man after Gods own heart " went to war and killed thousands.
So it is apparent that God THINKS that kill is justified at times ..

And if you are going to rant about " oh but thats the old testament "

Remember that the NEW Testament says God Has and will NEVER Change! So I don't think he changed his mind overnight.

Point of Fact is that We are so concerned about these psychical Body's we lose sight of the Spiritual realm. God order the death of thousands of people for a reason because not only was it better for the Israelites, but for the immoral nations as well. They were not allowed to corrupt the people around them so that the died the only death that matters.... the Eternal one in hell .

So to say that Killing is always bad you are saying that most of the heroes of the OT are hell bound and thats a dangerous place to be. oh and remember its not like they didn't know any better they had the 10 commandments . and it says thou shalt not murder right??
So either God changes his mind a lot or there are exceptions to the general rule .

 

[kopilo]

Just something on laws in the OT.
[bible]Ephesians 2:15[/bible]
There is also...
[bible]Matthew 22:36-40[/bible]

 

[Bun-Bun]

My favorite verse is in my signature.

 

[charlie_hunter]

Could it be because Australia was a penal colony and the United States of America started out with the best and the brightest of the UK seeking Religious Freedom from a tyrannical dictatorship?

That might just have a thing to do with Australia's Original Citizenry not having guns..... then again, what do I know? I'm just a student of history after all....

We use to have guns.............lots of them! once upon a time, we use to shoot Aborigines with them. Then in the mid 90's a man called Martin Bryant walked out of his home one day, with his (legal) gun and shot dead 35 people, men women and children. he's in jail now. after that, we decided that guns were not worth the problems they cause. and since then, violent crime has dropped. Americans own guns because they fear attack (bar the odd sports shooter that does not have a obsession with personal safety). I dont fear that at all. I use to live in the most violent 1st world country on the planet (as decided by the UN) and i didnt feel a need to arm myself.
If someone knows what they're doing, wants you dead and they have a gun.............the gun you carry wont mean a thing.......you'll be shot before you know you're in danger.

if you think he could have walked down the street and killed 35 people with a piece of rope (or a knife for that matter) you need your heads checked. if the American government and largely its people, truely believe in the 'guns dont kill people, people kill people' argument..................................then why go into Iraq sighting WMD's as the prime reason? If Saddam wanted to kill people, he could have done it with his bare hands right? he didnt need nukes.

how would you feel if Al Quida got their hands on WMD's? it wouldnt matter right? nothing worse could be done with them then could be done with a knife right?

oh and for the record..............combat knifes should be banned too. i'm not sure what the law in America is, but in Australia and the rest of the sane world, stabbing people is illegal.

 

[Suomipoika]

Sorry, I haven't posted anything on here in a while. I will post some replies sometime soon.

But right now I just have to say this: even though it's sometimes necessary to shoot people dead to avoid greater massacres, it is this kind of quotes (I love justified homicide) that make me feel sick and make me want to steer clear of this whole thread probably for a few more days.

 

[Blackguard_]

\ Then in the mid 90's a man called Martin Bryant walked out of his home one day, with his (legal) gun and shot dead 35 people, men women and children.

Let me guess, you guys didn't allow concealed or open carry at the time?

he's in jail now.

Yeah, he shoulda got the death country. A man goes a shooting spree so you cange your gun laws but not your death penatly laws. Strange country you have there.

after that, we decided that guns were not worth the problems they cause and since then, violent crime has dropped.

So? Have anything to back this up besides correlation? You're an island with a low population, it;s not like other factors can;t have signifigant impact on crime there.

Americans own guns because they fear attack (bar the odd sports shooter that does not have a obsession with personal safety).

LOL. This is straight out of one of those "Gun controlers must believe...." humor lists.

"That we must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time, and anyone who owns a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid."

I dont fear that at all. I use to live in the most violent 1st world country on the planet (as decided by the UN) and i didnt feel a need to arm myself.

Whaere did you live? The US? How long were you here for, a week in rural Texas? Not everone here goes around armed.

Was it England if not the USA?

Regardless, why dhould what yuo feel determine what others feel? Lots of people just like being prepared and realize they are unlikley to need a gun, but that when you need a gun you need a gun now.

If someone knows what they're doing, wants you dead and they have a gun.............the gun you carry wont mean a thing.......you'll be shot before you know you're in danger.

Same thing with any weapon. You don't think someone would have less difficulty slitting your throat or whacking you on the head before you coudl respond? "guns are not magic anti-crime charms, therfore they should be banned"?

if you think he could have walked down the street and killed 35 people with a piece of rope (or a knife for that matter) you need your heads checked.

Why not? If no one fought him he could have.

if the American government and largely its people, truely believe in the 'guns dont kill people, people kill people' argument..................................then why go into Iraq sighting WMD's as the prime reason? If Saddam wanted to kill people, he could have done it with his bare hands right? he didnt need nukes.

You really misunderstand the pro-gun argument don't you?
It's people who use the weapons right? And Bush was claiming Saddam had and was was willing to use those weapons.

And yes, our government is hypocritical, but it's not like yours isn't. You sentenced that Bryant guy to LWOP becasue you don;t believe in the Death Penalty for even such a crime, and yet you have a military posied to shoot, burn and blow up people for wearing the wrong patch on their sleeve.

how would you feel if Al Quida got their hands on WMD's? it wouldnt matter right? nothing worse could be done with them then could be done with a knife right?

We are aware WMD =/= knife.

And al-queda has already shown a knife can do just as much damage as a WMD.

Al-queda shouldn't have any weapons, whether a swiss army knife or ICBM.

oh and for the record..............combat knifes should be banned too. i'm not sure what the law in America is, but in Australia and the rest of the sane world, stabbing people is illegal.

..because you can't stab someone with a kitchen knife? How about hunting knives? They're pretty much the same thing as combat knives. Or do you mean the weird "fighting" knives they sell on TV? I see nothing wrong with people being allowed to buy those , (although they really shouldn't. They're just silly).

And I don't know about there, but here you can knife someone in self defense.

 

[joanna1]

Instead of using italics to get through the culture barrier, you could use logic.

Guns are intended to kill... no question about it. You say that like it is profound. You are also confusing killing someone with homocide! How is defending your family homocide?

.

Homocide? That's a new concept

 

[Bun-Bun]

if you think he could have walked down the street and killed 35 people with a piece of rope (or a knife for that matter) you need your heads checked.

He could have gone out and bought some perfectly legal fertilizer and some perfectly legal diesel fuel and made himself some high explosives and blown up one of your government buildings.

Blame the brainpower, not the boomstick.

 

[Corri]

If the seller has access to someones mental health records that would be great but I also feel it's a catch 22 situation. I think the topic is too wide spread. case to case is what it now comes down to.Run a mental health screening