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joanna1

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You know why Europe has less murders? They are a continent comprised completely of all the same people. The lack of diversity means less conflict. Differen't people don't get along, and thats what we have in many of the cities.

I would be willing to bet that if you removed the cities (which is where practially all of the crime happens) we would have the same deaths as Europe.

That is the most incredible statement i have read on this board in ages.... Europe comprised mostly of the same people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, in fact you said completely!!!!!!
Pulease..... Immigration is just as much of a fact here as it is in the USA (ok less in scandinavia maybe, but it's catching up) Have you ever studied european geopolitics? :) I have nothing against people not knowing about european geopolitics and comparative statistics, but i'm always baffled by the confidence people have in posting sweeping statements in obvious complete ignorance of the topic. Where did that idea come from??? Europe comprised of the same people.??? I can't get over it. Please come and visit. I will show you around. :) I can't believe you just said that... I'm in shock.

Recently there were some national riots in France. The American media was loving it. CNN was broadcasting an approximative map of France with Strasbourg next to Marseille, and gleefully showing pictures of cars burning. One major american paper even dug out a picture of the second world war... People here were ^_^ at what they were seeing on the american international channels, and at people cancelling their holidays. The reality was a few cars burning in the town suburbs.
Some american politician made a comment about France being in civil war, but was promptly shut up by someone pointing out that despite the abnormal extent of the outbreak of violence, there had been NO casualties. Not a SINGLE ONE (one person was badly injured). Whereas gang wars in the USA produce an impressive daily death toll...And that's not riot time, just normal day at the office!! The reason was clear and simple: in France, young offenders do not have easy access to firearms. No need to look for "homogenous population" arguments...

I personaly cannot see how it can be denied that easy firearm access encourages violent crime. There are too many facts, studies, statistics...
 
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The Princess Bride

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--Never get into a fools argument; you'll be brought down to his level and then be beaten by experience.--

This reminds me of watching campus preachers with rings of people around them; there is NO DEFINITIVE answer. People pull statistics out of no where without citing sources, and even if they do, you would have to take into account how the statistics were compiled, etc. before using them. As usual for an 'issue' dealing with human morality, and I guess in this case, human rationale, this will never end. All of a sudden, everyone becomes an expert. I always found that amusing, about any argument.

Human conflict is unfortunate, but its the only way to solve... conflicts eh? ;)

Its like all the logicians are in hiding, waiting for the next argument, the next person to make a mistake. But if someone's argument is 'wrong' then its only right to point it out eh?

You humans disgust me, in a personal, Jesus loving centered disgusting way.. ^_^

.....and just to contradict everything I said so the logicians jump on opportunities and point, I will say I dislike guns in the hands of civilians.

Here. I'll cite some reasons out of no where, then you can go busy yourself correcting them, pointing out flaws, etc.

1) Guns are dangerous!!!

2) Guns kill people!!!

3) I don't like guns.

4) Guns are for cowards.

5) Guns are expensive!

6) Ammo is expensive!

7) Crime would cease if guns were destroyed!

8) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people!

9) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo.
10) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection.

11) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties.

12) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels.

13) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic.

14) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire..

15) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period.

16) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 12 rounds and handle gun safely.

17) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 120 rounds and handle gun safely.

18) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 600 rounds and handle gun safely.

19) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely.

20) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 12 rounds and handle gun safely, with 10% accuracy.
.
21) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 120 rounds and handle gun safely, with 30% accuracy.
.
22) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 600 rounds and handle gun safely, with 50% accuracy.

23) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy.

24) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted.

25) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted and photo ID'ed.

26) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 1 hour course.

27) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 2 hour course.

28) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 10 hour course.

29) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 1 year course.

30) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 1 year course, and be able to shoot blind folded accurately..

31) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 1 year course, and be able to shoot blind folded accurately, blindly shoot a coin.

32) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 1 year course, and be able to shoot blind folded accurately, blindly shoot a coin, be able to successfully complete heart surgery with the gun.

33) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 1 year course, and be able to shoot blind folded accurately, blindly shoot a coin, be able to successfully complete heart surgery with the gun, able to use gun to do microsurgery.

34) Firearm-related homicides would decrease if guns were issued only to certain people, and with limited ammo, with a limited gun selection, with required safeties, required warning labels, only semiautomatic, limited rate of fire, 3 day waiting period, required to fire 10,000 rounds and handle gun safely with 100% accuracy, and be fingerprinted. and photo ID'ed, with a required 1 year course, and be able to shoot blind folded accurately, blindly shoot a coin, be able to successfully complete heart surgery with the gun, able to use gun to do microsurgery, and if all guns magically disappeared off the face of the earth!

35) Guns are intrinsically evil.

36) Jesus doesn't like guns.

37) Guns are intimidating.

38) Guns are accidents waiting to happen.

39) If we had no guns, the world would be at peace.

40) Guns need to be controlled due to crime.

41) Guns contribute to crime.

42) Guns make crimes easier to commit.

43) Guns were never meant to be built by God.

44) Guns are a waste of precious resources

45) Guns are gateway weapons; soon your kids will be playing with nuclear bombs.

46) Guns are a cruel way to kill people.

47) Guns don't serve any purpose in life like cereal does.

48) Guns murder!

49) Guns are Satan's primary tool in his scheme to take over the world by children warriors who are injected with valium and prozac, as well as being forced to read the Koran.

50) Guns suck.

Have fun. I can make another list if you want.

I've heard those reasons a million -/+ times...

ANYTHING can become dangerous when in the hands of the wrong person.

A two year old with a butcher knife can be just as dangerous as an old granny with a 22 shotgun.

Outlawing/illegalizing/whatever to guns WILL NOT, I repeat, WILL NOT end violence and crime.

It will merely un-arm the law-abiding citizen, and give those who break the law free-rein.
 
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Blackguard_

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Whereas gang wars in the USA produce an impressive daily death toll...And that's not riot time, just normal day at the office!!

Riot!=gang war? Besides, that's an equivocation error. American gangs are not like European street gangs. Your gangs are quaint throwbacks to our "The Outsiders" and "West Side Story" days.

The reason was clear and simple: in France, young offenders do not have easy access to firearms. No need to look for "homogenous population" arguments...

No, it's because your gangs are not basically Mobs like ours. AS I've saidm just like Prohibition lead to the rise of violent Mobs due to the black market of alcohol, The War on Drugs has lead to the rise of Mob-like gangs do to the black market of drugs.


I personaly cannot see how it can be denied that easy firearm access encourages violent crime. There are too many facts, studies, statistics...


Like these?
"Last year France recorded 4,244 crimes per 100,000 inhabitants, compared with 4,135 in the United States, where crime has been steadily decreasing. The United States still leads France in the number of murders and rapes per 100,000 residents, but France leads in violent thefts and some property crimes, including car theft.

For violent theft, France recorded 185 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 145 in the United States. For simple theft, France had 2,588 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 2,475 in the United States. And car theft was far higher in France, with 507 reported cases per 100,000 compared with 420 in the United States." Source.

Guns encourage violent crime, huh? I guess those "violent thefts" involving knives and blunt objects must never have happened then? Or is it only a few guns slipping through the gun control cracks terrorizing the nation?

You can find studies either way. A couple pages back it was pointed out Finland has a 0.7 per 100,000 murder rate, with a 7% of households having a handgun while the UK's murder rate is 1.97 per 100,000 with a handgun rate of %1 of households. There's more to crime than availability of weapons.

Why can't people accept it's culture that mainly determines the crime of a nation?
 
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Tenorvoice

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A two year old with a butcher knife can be just as dangerous as an old granny with a 22 shotgun.

I know that we are talking about a serious subject here, but that make me chuckle....as far as I know they do not make a 22 shotgun ;) there is a 10, 12, 16, 20, and 410 gauge, but I do not belive that there is a 22.

Like I said is made me laugh.... Back to the subject at thand....
 
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Blackguard_

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I know that we are talking about a serious subject here, but that make me chuckle....as far as I know they do not make a 22 shotgun

I saw that too. MAybe it's one of those shotguns with a rifle barrel underneath? "drillings" I think they're called? ;)

Hopefully, it was just a typo and she meant 12 or 20. Most likely 20 given it's implied she means a little old lady type grandma.
 
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The Princess Bride

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I know that we are talking about a serious subject here, but that make me chuckle....as far as I know they do not make a 22 shotgun ;) there is a 10, 12, 16, 20, and 410 gauge, but I do not belive that there is a 22.

Like I said is made me laugh.... Back to the subject at thand....
Glad you were amused. ;)

I saw that too. MAybe it's one of those shotguns with a rifle barrel underneath? "drillings" I think they're called? ;)

Hopefully, it was just a typo and she meant 12 or 20. Most likely 20 given it's implied she means a little old lady type grandma.
I meant "12" because it would fit the hypothetical situation in contrast to the 2 yr old with a butcher knife.:D
 
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I saw that too. MAybe it's one of those shotguns with a rifle barrel underneath? "drillings" I think they're called? ;)

Hopefully, it was just a typo and she meant 12 or 20. Most likely 20 given it's implied she means a little old lady type grandma.

Well, if you're lucky and can find an M-203 that mounts under your M-4, you can fire 40mm buckshot rounds. :)

The M-4 is a .223 round which is close to the .22.
 
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joanna1

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Riot!=gang war? Besides, that's an equivocation error. American gangs are not like European street gangs. Your gangs are quaint throwbacks to our "The Outsiders" and "West Side Story" days.

The link betwwen the riots and the gang wars being that racial tension is at the origin of both. LOL at you "insulting" european gans as "quaint": THAT's A GOOD THING ^_^ ^_^ I'm very glad they're not as bad as american gangs!! The reason they are less powerfull and cause less deaths is.... they have no easy access to firearms. When a guy from a gang wants to kill someone from the other gang, he has to use the gangs only weapon, and it requires some organisation. In the USA, even the youngest of the kids in the gang have a weapon. And they use them.
The organisation of the gangs is similar - they are divided into blocks or ethnic groups, fight for control of an area, for exclusivity of drug business, prostitution... Concentrated in the suburbs rather than in the town center, that's the difference... They are quite embryonic in their development compared to the USA but once again, that's a good thing. It's irrational to claim that gun usage is caused by the presence of gangs, and "without the gangs there wouldn't e a problem" - because it's a chicken and egg situation. The gangs develop with the help of free access to firearms.

Culture does cause crime. In a bad way. In France, in Italy, in Russia... culture has caused exceptionnal corruption problems. These do not exist in the USA, since honesty is valued as it is in the UK; in Germany rigour prevents it from developping.
You quoted statistics on violent crime; i should have been more specific in quoting those involving deaths. The death toll of people being shot in the USA is frightening in some areas... because of the proliferation of firearms. Because of their easy access.

That does not mean that I condemn the USA as being a country with more criminal behaviour than anywhere else; however when it comes to the use of weapons, i feel some a chunk of the american population cling on the the "power trip" of owning a gun that they somehow associate to an idealistic view of their historical "culture" and background, just as the french population cling on to a totally unreasonable limit to the weekly workload of 35hours, ridiculously long holidays and retirement at 55...


If a certain aspect of culture causes a certain crime, then that aspect of culture must change.
 
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charlie_hunter

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It seems that Americans are taught from a young age not to trust other human beings. you must arm yourselves! otherwise the bad people will come and get you!

I'm convinced that even the pro gun groups know that the widespread ownership of guns by civilians is causing much death and grief, but they see the price against society and humanity as being an acceptable price for their own comfort and security. A handgun (civilian use) is the ultimate security blanket. They are for the insecure.


Here are the facts........


"A few months ago the the Australian Bureau of Statistics revealed that
the total number of gun deaths in Australia for year 2003, was 290.
This figure shows that there has been a great reduction in yearly gun
deaths since governments started to introduce stricter gun laws a
decade and a half ago.
The total gun death figure of 290 compares most favourably with the
figures of the 1970's and 1980's when 700 was a typical approx. figure.
Thus we are witnessing the fact that because of the steady increase in
gun controls over 400 fewer Australian die from gun wounds each year
compared with two decades ago. "

"
  • By Category:
  • Accident 40
  • Suicide 193
  • Homicide 54
  • Legal etc. 3 "
Australia has a population of about 20 million so about 1 in 69,000 got killed in 2003 by a gun. 54 people got killed by the 'bad people' which is one in 1 in 370,000. now lets take a look at 'the land of the free'


"FACT:In 2003 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,136 gun deaths in the U.S:
  • 16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
  • 11,920 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
  • 730 unintentional shootings (2% of all U.S gun deaths),
  • 347 from legal intervention and 232 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2006"

there's what, 290million in america? something like that. 290,000,000 devided by 30,136 - about 1 in 9,600 americans got killed by a gun (i'm actually surprised how low that is, i thought it would be higher) 11,920 got shot by the 'bad guys' which is one in about 24,500 get killed by a 'bad guy'.

you're about FIFTEEN TIMES more likely to get shot by the bad people living in America than you are in Australia. why?

some more fun facts..........


FACT: [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:</B>[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:
  • 373 people in Germany
  • 151 people in Canada
  • 57 people in Australia
  • 19 people in Japan
  • 54 people in England and Wales, and
  • 11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence[/FONT][/SIZE]​


[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]FACT: [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence[/FONT][/SIZE]



[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]FACT: Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War. In 2003, the total number of people killed by guns in the United States was 30,136. [/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]- Based on data from CDC National Center for Health Statistics WISQARS online data collection system, 2006.[/FONT][/SIZE]​



[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]FACT: [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present. [/SIZE][/FONT]
-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)



[/FONT][/SIZE]
[/FONT][/SIZE]
 
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Blackguard_

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The link betwwen the riots and the gang wars being that racial tension is at the origin of both.
Even if true, it doesn't prove your point. Riots on similar scales here are unlikely to have fatalities too.

LOL at you "insulting" european gans as "quaint": THAT's A GOOD THING ^_^ ^_^ I'm very glad they're not as bad as american gangs!!

Oh I agree. Our gangs should be more like yours.

The reason they are less powerfull and cause less deaths is.... they have no easy access to firearms.
Nope. In those quaint days I meantioned, guns were even more readilly available than now.

When a guy from a gang wants to kill someone from the other gang, he has to use the gangs only weapon, and it requires some organisation. In the USA, even the youngest of the kids in the gang have a weapon. And they use them.
Right, and gang culture determines the weapons. "the gangs only weapon"? Gangs are not limited to guns.

The organisation of the gangs is similar - they are divided into blocks or ethnic groups, fight for control of an area, for exclusivity of drug business, prostitution... Concentrated in the suburbs rather than in the town center, that's the difference... They are quite embryonic in their development compared to the USA but once again, that's a good thing.

No, it's not a chain of development, but a different type of gang altogether.

It's irrational to claim that gun usage is caused by the presence of gangs, and "without the gangs there wouldn't e a problem" - because it's a chicken and egg situation. The gangs develop with the help of free access to firearms.
Yes it is, but I never claimed that. There would still be people using guns if there were no gangs, but much less. ANd it's just as irrational to claim guns caused the presence of gangs. Those gangs would be just as murderous if all they had were bats and knives.

Culture does cause crime. In a bad way. In France, in Italy, in Russia... culture has caused exceptionnal corruption problems. These do not exist in the USA, since honesty is valued as it is in the UK; in Germany rigour prevents it from developping.

yep.

You quoted statistics on violent crime; i should have been more specific in quoting those involving deaths. The death toll of people being shot in the USA is frightening in some areas... because of the proliferation of firearms. Because of their easy access.

Nope, because of the proliferation of extra-vicious gangs killing eachother and drug related killings. Those "some areas" are the places over-run by gangs and/or the illicit drug trade.

That does not mean that I condemn the USA as being a country with more criminal behaviour than anywhere else; however when it comes to the use of weapons, i feel some a chunk of the american population cling on the the "power trip" of owning a gun that they somehow associate to an idealistic view of their historical "culture" and background, just as the french population cling on to a totally unreasonable limit to the weekly workload of 35hours, ridiculously long holidays and retirement at 55...

attachment.php
"How dare you commoners aquire weapons! Only cops and soldiers should have guns, becuause it takes a ton of training and a special breed of person to undertstand 3 basic safety rules and simple mechanics. You'll probably just shoot yourself in the leg with your metal phallus when you mean to shoot your neighbor when you get into an argument about what the best baseball team is. Oh yeah, I support you rubes having the vote though, as extremely complicated political issues are much easier to understand than gun safety."?

Owning a gun is not a "power trip".

BUt right, gun ownership is part of our culture as part of freedom, self-reliance, and mistrust of the State. Gun ownership isn't unreasonable though.

If a certain aspect of culture causes a certain crime, then that aspect of culture must change.

Yep, being willing to kill for bad reasons.
 
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Blackguard_

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It seems that Americans are taught from a young age not to trust other human beings. you must arm yourselves! otherwise the bad people will come and get you!

Does your country have a police force and judicial system by any chance? It's more like the boy-scout motto; "be prepared". It's recognized you are unlikley to need a gun, but it's also recognized that when you need a gun, you need a gun.

I'm convinced that even the pro gun groups know that the widespread ownership of guns by civilians is causing much death and grief, but they see the price against society and humanity as being an acceptable price for their own comfort and security
Yeah, how dare we commoners arm ourselves against threats. You're not completely wrong though, in that I think there is a difference in American and other countries attitudes to gun deaths. We just don't see all gun deaths as equal. We are Individualists, not Collectivists, so we have a hard time seeing why the actions of others should cause me to lose rights when I have done nothing. Sure, gang members and criminals shoot eachother all the time, by I don't go around murdering. I should lose my right to own a gun becasue someone not me is abusing that right? That's absurb.

While someone in say, Europe might go "the people of USA taken as a hole have too many gun deaths. No, we don't care about the situation, a gun death is a gun death. As the monolithic people you are, you have shown you cannot handle guns. And what's an 'individual right" and 'personal responsibilty' anyway?:scratch:"

. A handgun (civilian use) is the ultimate security blanket. They are for the insecure.

Because soldiers and cops are Supermen and/or it takes that much training to be safe with guns? And how dare we be prepared for unforseen circumstances.
Cops are no more for the insecure than cops and soldiers are. Afraid someone will commit a crime? And what is this, 1941? Are you afraid someone's going to invade your island on the edge of the world? You paranoid Aussies...


Besides, I'm not insecure enough to care someone thinks I'm insecure. ;)

"A few months ago the the Australian Bureau of Statistics revealed that
the total number of gun deaths in Australia for year 2003, was 290.
This figure shows that there has been a great reduction in yearly gun
deaths since governments started to introduce stricter gun laws a
decade and a half ago.The total gun death figure of 290 compares most favourably with the
figures of the 1970's and 1980's when 700 was a typical approx. figure.
Thus we are witnessing the fact that because of the steady increase in
gun controls over 400 fewer Australian die from gun wounds each year
compared with two decades ago. "

correlation!=causation?

ANd what about murders in general? People just don't die from gunshots.

But most importantly Australia=/= America.


"
By Category:
Accident 40
Suicide 193
Homicide 54
Legal etc. 3 "
Australia has a population of about 20 million so about 1 in 69,000 got killed in 2003 by a gun. 54 people got killed by the 'bad people' which is one in 1 in 370,000. now lets take a look at 'the land of the free'


"FACT:In 2003 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,136 gun deaths in the U.S:
16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,920 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
730 unintentional shootings (2% of all U.S gun deaths),
347 from legal intervention and 232 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2006"

there's what, 290million in america? something like that. 290,000,000 devided by 30,136 - about 1 in 9,600 americans got killed by a gun (i'm actually surprised how low that is, i thought it would be higher) 11,920 got shot by the 'bad guys' which is one in about 24,500 get killed by a 'bad guy'.

you're about FIFTEEN TIMES more likely to get shot by the bad people living in America than you are in Australia. why?

gang and drug violence. bad people killing bad people.

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:</B>
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:
373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

And none of those places have the gang and drug problem of the USA.

FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.
Appeal to emotion. It's not like kids that age can't be involved in gangs and drugs, and more importanly suicide. And then, children aren't immune to crime.

Have any stats for other methods of death? Is deth by gun somehow worse then death by beating, strangling or stabbing?

In conclusion, ban food, and pools! They're kiling our children, at bigger numbers than even those horrible guns.:eek: And all motor vehicles need to be exorcised and burned at once.

FACT: Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War. In 2003, the total number of people killed by guns in the United States was 30,136.

Many more people die from cars. And why do you care about numbers so much? Not all deaths are equal. Thousands of criminals killing thousands of criminals doesn't bother me.

FACT: A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.
-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)

LIE.
" Researcher Don Kates reveals that all available data now indicates that the "home gun homicide victims [in Kellerman's study] were killed using guns not kept in the victim's home." In other words, the victims were NOT murdered with their own guns! They were killed "by intruders who brought their own guns to the victim's household."
* In retrospect, Kates found, it was not the ownership of firearms that put these victims at high risk. Rather, it was the victim's "high-risk life-styles [such as criminal associations] that caused them to own guns at higher rates than the members of the supposedly comparable control group. "
 
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Sascha Fitzpatrick

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I come from a culture that is very 'anti' gun. As a result, my opinions have been formed along the same vein.

I do not understand the part of American culture that allows the right to bear arms. I do not agree with it, and I do not see a logical rationale for it, sorry to say.

I do not see this being a 'Christian' issue at all - it's just something I personally disagree with. Again, due to my cultural upbringing, I find the mentality in America with regards to guns incomprehensible.

But that's me... :)

Sasch
 
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Sketcher

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I come from a culture that is very 'anti' gun. As a result, my opinions have been formed along the same vein.

I do not understand the part of American culture that allows the right to bear arms. I do not agree with it, and I do not see a logical rationale for it, sorry to say.

I do not see this being a 'Christian' issue at all - it's just something I personally disagree with. Again, due to my cultural upbringing, I find the mentality in America with regards to guns incomprehensible.

But that's me... :)

Sasch
The British were oppressors here, and one of the many things they forbade was certain kinds of guns, so that the people could not rise up against them. The Bill of Rights and the whole Constitution for that matter was our way of saying "never again" to a government oppressing its people. Part of that is allowing the people to keep and bear arms.
 
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Sketcher

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^^^Agreed!^^^

however i personally see it as a Christian issue, as God calls us to be champions of peace. Supporting the distribution of weapons which sole purpose is to kill other human beings is not being a champion of the peace.
But banning weapons would not be championing peace, it would be well-intentioned foolishness that would only bring about more violence. In the 1920's, we tried something called "prohibition." It made alcohol, which had been a staple of American culture, illegal. All prohibition accomplished was provide a fertile environment for organized crime. Violent mobs came to power, selling alcohol. A ban on guns would just do the same thing, since guns are another staple of our culture.
 
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