Guns

[fishstix]

Thanks guys for all the replies to this thread. Though, I wasnt asking for a debate on the pros and cons of having a gun. I was wanting some reassurace that Christian people in America do actually have some morals and believe that murder is wrong regardless whether or not it is in self defence. Its a commandment man!

Guns do not equal murder. Most gun-owners in North America do indeed believe that murder is wrong. You can feel reassured on that point.

 

[hugnluvable]

Guns do not equal murder. Most gun-owners in North America do indeed believe that murder is wrong. You can feel reassured on that point.

Thank you for the reassurance
But it still concerns me that people have guns for self defence.... not just for hunting... self defence? That does mean people are willing to cause someone bodily harm with that gun.... that really does concern me.

 

[born2run]

Hmm... never thought of it that way. I like it.

But since we're being all thoughtful like...

You're obviously a Christian. I imagine anyone that would come at you with intentions to kill you would not be. Assuming you believe in the brand of Christianity where all good Christians go straight to heaven for ever and ever and all nonchristians go straight to hell, would you really want to put to an end someone's life knowing they're headed to eternal damnation?

I'm not sure what to think about that, but one can argue that letting people continue killing isn't exactly "saving" them from hell. It's not like they're going to stop and convert after the thought to commit a crime has been formulated. So for me to say that I wouldn't kill them in self defense simply because they'd go to hell would be ridiculous. In essence I guess I think that their future was sealed before they ever threatened me or someone else. After all, they are in control in their own eternal destiny, not me.

RE: Premeditation of crimes
I hope I make sense here and don't derail the thread, but I've thought a lot about this. I believe to a certain sense ALL crimes are premeditated, although I wouldn't and couldn't argue that in a court of law. You just don't wake up one morning and decide to batter your wife, beat your child, or rob a convenience store at gun point. It has to be a consistent downgrade in the thought pattern, and one that the person allows. I believe all crimes are able to be stopped, no matter how justifiable they may seem at the moment they were committed. Even the man that kills his wife after he sees her cheating on him, etc. has thought of violence as an alternative before he ever actually followed through on his first crime. "Be angry, and sin not." Not sure what chapter that comes from, but I believe it refers to this directly.

In regards to the first post, I believe firmly that murder is wrong. And so far my gun hasn't gotten a life of it's own and taken off on a killing rampage.

 

[hugnluvable]

In regards to the first post, I believe firmly that murder is wrong. And so far my gun hasn't gotten a life of it's own and taken off on a killing rampage.

Why do you have a gun then?

 

[born2run]

Why do you have a gun then?

Based on the premise that self-defense is NOT murder.

 

[hugnluvable]

Based on the premise that self-defense is NOT murder.

Well the well known phrase...Thou shalt not kill, really does put me off pulling a trigger y'know!

 

[born2run]

Well the well known phrase...Thou shalt not kill, really does put me off pulling a trigger y'know!

Then...(not to bait you of course) but how do you feel about wars? Do you believe that every soldier that has killed is not a christian?

 

[Ginsu]

Well the well known phrase...Thou shalt not kill, really does put me off pulling a trigger y'know!

A bit off topic but:

Just to let you know, it's thou shalt not murder, not thou shalt not kill...silly copyright version mixes. Theres a big difference between murdering and killing.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Ok, Jesus told his deciples if you don't own a sword then go get yourselves one, whats a sword used for? Not for changing a lightbulb, thats for sure.

 

[born2run]

A bit off topic but:

Just to let you know, it's thou shalt not murder, not thou shalt not kill...silly copyright version mixes. Theres a big difference between murdering and killing.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Ok, Jesus told his deciples if you don't own a sword then go get yourselves one, whats a sword used for? Not for changing a lightbulb, thats for sure.

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

 

[hugnluvable]

Well, ok, fair enough the kill/murder thing makes sense.... than again, maybe not -cus if you actually use the gun to shoot someone on your turf being a threat then you've actively chosen to do that and that (to me) is classed as murder.

To be fair though, we're going to end up agreeing to disagree. You're not going to get rid of your gun just cus someone questions you why you as a Christian own a gun. And the sword thing, well I'll look into it.... but I really don't think Jesus promoted killing the person about to rob your house!

Erica
xxx

 

[Sketcher]

When Jesus was attacked and arrested did He defend himself? When His friends were attacked and mocked did He defend them? No, He reassured them that they will be granted eternal life in paradise through their faith in Him alone.

Also consider that none of His disciples got arrested at that time. He told the mob to let them go. Therefore, He didn't put their safety at risk because He refused to defend Himself. There is SOME case for not defending yourself in the Bible, but it never says not to defend others. In fact, God blessed Abraham after using much violence to rescue Lot (Genesis 14:14 and following). If I had a family, I would shoot the intruder - it would be my duty to protect them.

 

[hugnluvable]

Then...(not to bait you of course) but how do you feel about wars? Do you believe that every soldier that has killed is not a christian?

I'm not saying anyone is not a Christian for doing something God probably doesnt want to promote! Oh my word, if that was the case then there would be alot of us far from the gates of heaven. I just like to pause and think over things ethically and question things that really truly concern me.

I do not believe that every soldier that has killed is not a Christian, nor am I saying that every Christian who owns a gun with an intent to use it if someone is a threat to them is not a Christian. I am so sorry if thats the way I've come across to you.

I just find it so amazingly different that people thousands of miles away in another country see it fit to have guns in their houses as means of self defence. All we have in the UK is the humble kitchen knife and/or maybe the odd garden fork if we're really lucky! But even then we'd be in great trouble for using them!

 

[hugnluvable]

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Ok, Jesus told his deciples if you don't own a sword then go get yourselves one, whats a sword used for? Not for changing a lightbulb, thats for sure.

Oooook, this is a bit of a mixed reply here. Yes, there is no denying that Jesus said the above statement. And Jesus said it prior to his arrest and the hostility that the disciples were going to face. And yep, in those times swords were like these dagger things that were used for hunting or... you guessed it self defence!

Only thing is... right after Jesus says this the disciples bring him a couple of actual swords. Jesus responds saying "that is enough!" What Jesus is saying is kind of ambiguous, especialy in translation. A few lines down Jesus uses the same response, "that is enough!" to rebuke the apostles for cutting of the high priest's servant's ear. My interpretation is that in both instances Jesus is rebuking the disciples for interpreting Jesus' words as encouragement to physical violence.

Something I also found really interesting when looking up about this was:
Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."

Also Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14).

But do those two statements really justify the use of a gun?

I think it'd be human instinct to want to kill the person attacking loved one/s or even someone you dont even know. In my head right now, I'd never dream of doing that - I dont think I'm the kinda person who'd want to. But than again, situations like that if you're put on the spot can indeed make you do drastic things. In fact really drastic things.

Love and hugs
Erica
xxx

 

[Sketcher]

I just find it so amazingly different that people thousands of miles away in another country see it fit to have guns in their houses as means of self defence. All we have in the UK is the humble kitchen knife and/or maybe the odd garden fork if we're really lucky! But even then we'd be in great trouble for using them!

Where I'm coming from, if you're going to outlaw guns because they're dangerous, you might as well outlaw the kitchen knives, garden forks, etc. Any of them can be used to harm another person, in a very nasty manner.

 

[hugnluvable]

Where I'm coming from, if you're going to outlaw guns because they're dangerous, you might as well outlaw the kitchen knives, garden forks, etc. Any of them can be used to harm another person, in a very nasty manner.

well um yeah, but there are more than just one use for household utensils - and they dont involve harming other people

 

[Sketcher]

well um yeah, but there are more than just one use for household utensils - and they dont involve harming other people

Same with guns. Recreational target shooting.

 

[Singing Bush]

I'm not sure what to think about that, but one can argue that letting people continue killing isn't exactly "saving" them from hell. It's not like they're going to stop and convert after the thought to commit a crime has been formulated.

That is certainly true, but at least they would have had another chance in the future to make the greatest decision of their lives and perhaps repent. And heck, you're going to heaven, what do you care if you die? There're plenty of examples in Scripture and in the world today of people who have done some horrible things and yet later turned to Christ. Obviously they wouldn't have been able to do that if someone had put a sword or bullet through them a few years before.

So for me to say that I wouldn't kill them in self defense simply because they'd go to hell would be ridiculous. In essence I guess I think that their future was sealed before they ever threatened me or someone else.

But why is their future sealed? Is there absolutely no chance of repentance in their future? If there is a chance, why take that from them when the consequences are so permanent and dire?

After all, they are in control in their own eternal destiny, not me.

Yes and no. While in the end one is responsible for one's own decision, this does not mean everyone makes this decision in a vacuum. In fact, if it were true that we couldn't affect another's choices why would the Bible suggest that some people will receive different judgment than others based on how much they had heard/seen/ect.? * If people had zero influence on another's eternal destiny, why evangelize at all? It seems more likely to me that we all affect each other and each others' decisions and nothing affects someone's ability to make future decisions more than taking their life thus preventing them from even having the opportunity to make those future decisions.

I hope I make sense here and don't derail the thread, but I've thought a lot about this.

Heh, I think we already successfully derailed the original intention of this thread.

I believe to a certain sense ALL crimes are premeditated, although I wouldn't and couldn't argue that in a court of law. <...> Even the man that kills his wife after he sees her cheating on him, etc. has thought of violence as an alternative before he ever actually followed through on his first crime.

In a certain sense, yes, all crimes are premeditated, but not to the same extent. (Otherwise why even have a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder?) The man who kills his wife in a moment of passion because he sees her in bed with another man may have first thought to himself such thoughts in previous moments of anger, but it doesn't mean that he'd still, after that intense emotion had gone away, plan out a way to murder his wife. And if there's a way to increase the likelihood that that man will transition from homicidal rage to normal, not-so-likely-to-kill-someone anger (i.e. by taking away the easiest way for him to act out on his rage), shouldn't that method at least be considered?

"Be angry, and sin not." Not sure what chapter that comes from, but I believe it refers to this directly.

And a dandy verse that is. Unfortunately, like many commandments, we don't readily follow them even when we sincerely desire to lead Christian lives. I could be wrong, but I doubt you have never lied again since you became a Christian. I know I have. I doubt you've never cheated or stolen in some minor, small way since you became a Christian. The fact of the matter is even the best of us still make mistakes so why should we make it easier for them to do so?

* Luke 10:13-14 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and shes. But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you."

Luke 12:47-48 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

 

[JustLiz87]

I live in the country in IL. My dad owns a gun b/c we live on a farm although I have not grown up around them as some other posters have. My 80 year old grandma owns a shotgun. I have only recently had experiences around guns because my boyfriend does own a pistol and a shotgun. I've never really liked holding them or shooting them or anything like that, but I do plan on learning how to use one. I agree with many other posters here that the amendment exists so that we may defend our lives and our property whether it be against an animal or a human. I would find it very difficult to take life from anything, but after I learn to use a gun, I would use it to defend myself if my life was in danger. I also agree that if guns were outlawed, criminals would still have them, but honest people would not, which would endanger those without a gun. In IL there are many deer and hunting season exists so that these deer may be hunted and killed. Without it, there would be an overpopulation of deer and more car accidents would result from this. Also, on several occassions my dad has fired his gun to kill skunks or coyotes or raccooons or any animal that threaten our livestock. I also agree that guns are just a tool, it takes a person to pull the trigger. And yes many children have had accidents with guns, but these firearms should be locked away or the children should have been taught how to properly use a firearm.

 

[fishstix]

Thank you for the reassurance
But it still concerns me that people have guns for self defence.... not just for hunting... self defence? That does mean people are willing to cause someone bodily harm with that gun.... that really does concern me.

And some people have knives for self defense. And some have dogs or baseball bats. And some are trained in assorted forms of hand to hand combat, which can also be lethal. Why pick on the guns?

When it comes to either having bodily harm done to you/your family or doing bodily harm to someone else to prevent it, most people are going to go with preventing harm to themselves/their family. If they don't have a gun, they'll go with the next best object. If they have no object, they may resort to punching/kicking/etc. Most people are not going to think about whether it's morally acceptable to injure a criminal in order to protect their children from injury. They're going to do whatever it takes to protect their children. And I suspect that is something universal among most cultures.

But yeah, around here, the primary function of most guns is hunting or pest control. Next would probably be recreational target shooting or simply display - artwork if you will Self defense would be one of the last things on most gun-owners minds here. They may use their gun for that purpose if the need arises, just as they may use a knife or a bat, but it isn't the primary function.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Forgive me if I don't quite see how "punching and kicking" a criminal is the same thing as murdering him with a bullet to the head? I wouldn't take the life of another person, and I dislike the implication that all people ought to be situational killers.