Gun Ownership

[leftrightleftrightleft]

If you want to look at it that way, that's fine.

But in my opinion, if 2 armed thugs barge into a store that I'm in and start threatening to shoot up the place if they don't get what they want, that's a direct and real threat to the lives of the innocent people in that store.

Its probably best that the guy at the cash register just gives them what they want. When I worked at a gas station we had a big sign in the back room that said something along the lines of, "If a robbery should occur, DON'T TRY TO BE A HERO!"

If the guy at the cash register just empties the register, the gas station will be out a couple hundred bucks which can be claimed on insurance and thats a small dent in the profits. The owner of the gas station would MUCH rather prefer that he loses a few hundred bucks rather than having to deal with a few dead employees or customers.

The robbers probably aren't intending to kill anyone because they have no reason to, so long as they aren't threatened and so long as they get what they want.

If you were hiding in the corner and then tried to be a hero by shooting one of the robbers with your trusty gun which you claim "protects you", it would probably lead to unnecessary death because the robbers would be more likely to open fire on the guy behind the register and/or people in the store. If you just stayed still and didn't try to be a hero, no one would get killed or hurt.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

Tanks or no tanks, I don't think their capacity is superior.

I did some research (so these counts might be off just slightly since I could only find estimates and no actual hard number)

Number of US Servicemen:
Apprx: 1.9 million (only about 120,000 of them are actual combat troops, the rest perform other non-combat duties, engineers etc...)

Number of US Citizens:
Apprx: 310.5 million (obviously that takes in elderly and babies which couldn't fight)

Number of US Citizens (men between the ages of 16 and 40 & fully capable):
Apprx: 112 million

In total, we've got them outnumbered 58/1. If we look at only their combat troops (since we know a 68 year old Colonel isn't going to fight), we've got them outnumbered by 930/1.

So at those odds, how do you figure they're far superior? Sure they have WMD's, but logically they couldn't use those without offing most of themselves along with us, and even with tanks they're not going to be able to handle those odds (considering that there are people who know how to make explosives)

Like I said, these number might not be exact, but I still think it proves my point that the US people aren't helpless.

This assumes that none of the citizens decide to side with the government to fight the "traitors". What happens if the "loyalists" tend to be the more armed citizens?

 

[acropolis]

This assumes that none of the citizens decide to side with the government to fight the "traitors". What happens if the "loyalists" tend to be the more armed citizens?

Given how those most concerned with gun rights are also the most nationalistic among us I find it totally unbelievable that a war between the citizenry and government would even start let alone be won by the citizens.

 

[AceHero]

No, if someone broke into my house, I wouldn't be going for a leg-shot.

Wouldn't you rather disable than kill?

 

[Blackmarch]

Wouldn't you rather disable than kill?

Depends on the situation. If you only have a split second to decide, you may not have that option.
Altho i've heard from an officer if you shoot inside your house to injure, shoot to kill, otherswise (dependant on where you live) the intruder may have legal grounds to sue you for injury.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Its probably best that the guy at the cash register just gives them what they want. When I worked at a gas station we had a big sign in the back room that said something along the lines of, "If a robbery should occur, DON'T TRY TO BE A HERO!"

If the guy at the cash register just empties the register, the gas station will be out a couple hundred bucks which can be claimed on insurance and thats a small dent in the profits. The owner of the gas station would MUCH rather prefer that he loses a few hundred bucks rather than having to deal with a few dead employees or customers.

So wait, the answer is to cave in to criminals? When did that become a valid proposition for maintaining order? Why should it be viewed as just an insurance claim for the owner? If enough of those start happening, and enough claims are filed, rates are going to start going up for all business owners.

I guess it's typcial to be nice to the bad guys these days, we live in a society where a burglar can file a lawsuit against you if he breaks into your house and trips in your living room...and if they go to jail for it, they can get a free college degree when those of us who haven't been to jail get to pay $40K+.

People always wonder why crime's gone way up in the last 3 decades, this is why. It has nothing to do with the economy like democrats like to pawn it off on. Look at our systems of enforcing rules compared to what was there in 1975. We went from corporal punishment (making a bad guy afraid to do bad things) to trying to solve these problems with diplomacy and a series of conversations and slaps on the wrist. I see it more and more with children. I see kids getting away with things that would've gotten me a whipping when I was a kid. Now, a kid doesn't buckle down in school or decided to goof off rather than study, parents can't punish them anymore, they have to call in team of doctors to diagnose the child and lump them in with what's apparently the biggest fluke case of ADD per capa than we've ever seen in our history Trying to solve the problem with the pill instead of the paddle.

A little bit of healthy fear is a good thing to keep people on the straight and narrow. Now, we want to discuss taking away the last thing we have that might keep a burgler from breaking in? If the bad guys know that all of the law abiding citizens have turned their guns in...field day. It's nothing more than a building full of easy targets at that point.

Are we that afraid to issue real punishment to those who deserve it?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Given how those most concerned with gun rights are also the most nationalistic among us I find it totally unbelievable that a war between the citizenry and government would even start let alone be won by the citizens.

It depends on how you look at it. If the government was trying to take the guns away, wouldn't those most concerned with keeping their guns be on the opposing side of the government? Also, it depends on how you view loyalty. I, like many others, am loyal to the constitution, not a president or administration. I take the document very literally and if my government did something to so flagrently oppose what's in the document, I don't see how I could be on their side.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Depends on the situation. If you only have a split second to decide, you may not have that option.
Altho i've heard from an officer if you shoot inside your house to injure, shoot to kill, otherswise (dependant on where you live) the intruder may have legal grounds to sue you for injury.

This is true for a lot of states.

However, those of us who are lucky enough to live in states that have re-enacted the Castle Doctrine, it's at our discretion. There are different flavors of the law, but the general idea is if someone breaks into your house unwanted, the homeowner becomes the judge, jury, and if need be, the executioner.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Wouldn't you rather disable than kill?

I'd rather not have to shoot at all. Ideally, if a person breaks in and trips my alarm (which doesn't beep loud at the door, the indicators are in 2 of the bedrooms upstairs giving me the element of surprise) and turns the corner to see my .45acp pointed at them (with Trijicon night-sights), they'll drop whatever they have and wait until the police arrive. However, if they make a sudden move or imply anything threatening. Lights out, better luck in your next life.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

So wait, the answer is to cave in to criminals? When did that become a valid proposition for maintaining order? Why should it be viewed as just an insurance claim for the owner? If enough of those start happening, and enough claims are filed, rates are going to start going up for all business owners.

When was the last time you heard about a civilian stopping an armed robbery? Most people cave into the criminal because its the smart, rational and safest thing to do. There's cameras, leave it up to the cops (aka the men and women we have entrusted to enforce security) to track down the criminal.

Also, its not as if robberies are just going to spike because we "give in" to the criminals. Like I said, not many citizen's arrests occur anyway so clearly there's already a big enough deterrent to robbing a store.

I guess it's typcial to be nice to the bad guys these days, we live in a society where a burglar can file a lawsuit against you if he breaks into your house and trips in your living room...and if they go to jail for it, they can get a free college degree when those of us who haven't been to jail get to pay $40K+.

Strawman.

People always wonder why crime's gone way up in the last 3 decades, this is why. It has nothing to do with the economy like democrats like to pawn it off on. Look at our systems of enforcing rules compared to what was there in 1975. We went from corporal punishment (making a bad guy afraid to do bad things) to trying to solve these problems with diplomacy and a series of conversations and slaps on the wrist.

Here are some stats from the FBI. You've got your numbers mixed up. Crime has been on a steady decrease in all categories since the early 1990s. Your paranoia is getting the best of you and letting you skew the facts.

Also, rehabilitative justice is actually a lot more productive in many ways. I forget who said it on here, but someone said that prisons are basically criminal factories. You put a bunch of people together who are all criminals and they all get to hang out for a few years and then they get released into the general public with no outside connections so they meet up with all their criminal buddies. The petty thief becomes a rapist. The rapist becomes a drug lord. The drug lord becomes a serial killer. Prisoners are like "criminal upgrades".

I see it more and more with children. I see kids getting away with things that would've gotten me a whipping when I was a kid. Now, a kid doesn't buckle down in school or decided to goof off rather than study, parents can't punish them anymore, they have to call in team of doctors to diagnose the child and lump them in with what's apparently the biggest fluke case of ADD per capa than we've ever seen in our history Trying to solve the problem with the pill instead of the paddle.

This is a red herring which has nothing to do with guns or crime.

A little bit of healthy fear is a good thing to keep people on the straight and narrow. Now, we want to discuss taking away the last thing we have that might keep a burgler from breaking in? If the bad guys know that all of the law abiding citizens have turned their guns in...field day. It's nothing more than a building full of easy targets at that point.

A criminal robbing a store doesn't want to shoot people. You aren't a "target". He'll probably just ignore you as long as he gets the cash out of the till.

Once again, when was the last time you heard of a citizen stopping a robbery in progress? Its not as if you as some Joe Blow are deterring crime. The robbers probably don't care if you have a gun or not, nor do they consider it if they're already desperate enough to rob a store in the first place.

Are we that afraid to issue real punishment to those who deserve it?

You're not a cop. You're not a judge. Leave it up to them to do their jobs.
Don't try to be a hero. Things don't happen like they do in the movies.

 

[David Brider]

I got in an argument at work today with a guy who's anti-gun, anti-meat, etc... over the topics of gun ownership and hunting.

He tried to insist that "you are all misreading the constitution", and "what about the rights of the animals?", and "gun ownership is what contributes to high crime & murder rates"

Now, being a gun owner myself (I don't hunt, but I do enjoy sport pistol shooting) I took exception to some of the comments he was making.

I don't think owning gun is wrong in anyway. I've had over 120 hours of in class training on gun safety and gun laws, and countless hours of practice on the range. I've never had an accidental discharge of any kind.

Do you think there's anything wrong with gun ownership?

I've never seen the point of owning a gun. I've never wanted one. As a pacifist I find the notion of owning a gun to be rather repulsive. I'm not particularly patriotic, but I'm quite grateful that I live in a country where owning a gun is a.) not legal, in the vast majority of instances, and b.) not viewed as such a desirable (or indeed important) thing as it is in the USA.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Also, its not as if robberies are just going to spike because we "give in" to the criminals. Like I said, not many citizen's arrests occur anyway so clearly there's already a big enough deterrent to robbing a store.

You're right they don't occur, because people don't keep themselves prepared.

Strawman.

Not a strawman, that would be setting up a false premise that's easy to refute. I wasn't refute anything I was just stating fact when I mentioned that prisoners get free college and that people have gotten sued by burglers.



http://www.moralityindex.com/crime.html

Here are some stats from the FBI. You've got your numbers mixed up. Crime has been on a steady decrease in all categories since the early 1990s. Your paranoia is getting the best of you and letting you skew the facts.

http://www.moralityindex.com/crime.html

It's paranoia in the same way that wearing a seatbelt is paranoia, if we want to label preparation as paranoia.

Also, rehabilitative justice is actually a lot more productive in many ways. I forget who said it on here, but someone said that prisons are basically criminal factories. You put a bunch of people together who are all criminals and they all get to hang out for a few years and then they get released into the general public with no outside connections so they meet up with all their criminal buddies. The petty thief becomes a rapist. The rapist becomes a drug lord. The drug lord becomes a serial killer. Prisoners are like "criminal upgrades".

Slippery slope.

This is a red herring which has nothing to do with guns or crime.

So the way parents raise their kids doesn't impact how they behave as adults?

A criminal robbing a store doesn't want to shoot people. You aren't a "target". He'll probably just ignore you as long as he gets the cash out of the till.

You you can read their minds now???

You're not a cop. You're not a judge. Leave it up to them to do their jobs.
Don't try to be a hero. Things don't happen like they do in the movies.

You're right, I'm not a cop, a cop would take 10 minutes to get to the scene and handle it


Another poster made reference to this point earlier, but I think it was a good point: Why is it that you hear of gas station hold ups fairly often, but never here of anyone holding up a shooting range?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I've never seen the point of owning a gun. I've never wanted one. As a pacifist I find the notion of owning a gun to be rather repulsive. I'm not particularly patriotic, but I'm quite grateful that I live in a country where owning a gun is a.) not legal, in the vast majority of instances, and b.) not viewed as such a desirable (or indeed important) thing as it is in the USA.

In which cases is it illegal?

 

[Blackmarch]

...
Another poster made reference to this point earlier, but I think it was a good point: Why is it that you hear of gas station hold ups fairly often, but never here of anyone holding up a shooting range?

Gas stations are far more often closer and on hand, as well as more likely to have cash there, and are open more, as well as having the door right next to the parking stalls (and close to the counter), and generally when there are hold ups at a station it's not to steal more weapons.

(Where i live gun ranges are just an open field with real high mounds of dirt bordering it and are way out in the boonies... someone would have to be a blathering idiot to try to do a hold up there, or would have to know someone rather good enough to know ahead of time when they'd be using it, and what they would be bringing)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Gas stations are far more often closer and on hand, as well as more likely to have cash there, and are open more, as well as having the door right next to the parking stalls (and close to the counter), and generally when there are hold ups at a station it's not to steal more weapons.

(Where i live gun ranges are just an open field with real high mounds of dirt bordering it and are way out in the boonies... someone would have to be a blathering idiot to try to do a hold up there, or would have to know someone rather good enough to know ahead of time when they'd be using it, and what they would be bringing)

Well, around here, it's indoor ranges (and I forget who the other poster was who made this comment), but it was along the lines of "You'd have to be crazy to try to hold up a gun range, it'd be suicide"

The ranges around here have $1,000's of dollars in weapons and just as much money in the register as a gas station would have. So, I'll ask again, why doesn't anyone attempt an armed robbery on an indoor shooting range

The one, and only correct, answer would be because the bad guys would be afraid to do it. That's the way it should be. People should be afraid to do something that would physically infringe on the rights of others. If more citizens got trained and carried, we could give the bad guys the same feeling about convenient stores and gas stations. It goes back to my "sometimes a healthy fear is good" mentality.

 

[David Brider]

In which cases is it illegal?

Most situations. I'm no expert in the law (this site might help a bit), but ownership of guns is very much the exception rather than the norm over here.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Most situations. I'm no expert in the law (this site might help a bit), but ownership of guns is very much the exception rather than the norm over here.

Oh, I thought you were from the US, I guess I should have looked at your country flag icon before asking that, my bad

 

[fenix144]

If more citizens got trained and carried, we could give the bad guys the same feeling about convenient stores and gas stations. It goes back to my "sometimes a healthy fear is good" mentality.

Very much disagree with this.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Very much disagree with this.

Can you elaborate?

You disagree that armed citizens would scare bad guys?

...or you disagree that we should be trying to scare the bad guys?

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

Most situations. I'm no expert in the law (this site might help a bit), but ownership of guns is very much the exception rather than the norm over here.

It's actually not that difficult to get a rifle or a shotgun, I know a number of people who own them. People see the "need a reason" requirement as a big hurdle but it isn't.