Gun Control Debate

rturner76 said:

Oh, I didn't realize that was a signature. I thought it was part of your post. It's nothing I would be offended by. I just didn't quite understand it. But I don't understand many things admittedly.

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My signature is about how to turn off seeing signatures on CF.

I found them a distraction so posted in my signature how to remove them from view for anyone who wanted to do the same.

So much catastrophizing. How hard emotionally to always be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My anger at the gun-obsessed has turned to pity.

Fantine said:

John, what you are reading are comments from people who have been inculcated with a sort of paranoia that keeps them armed and robs them of peace of mind.
I am in my early 70's. Spent 7 of those years in NYC. Riding subways. Had summer jobs in the courts while in school.
While I choose friends wisely and lead a reasonably prudent life, no one in my home has ever had a gun.
One son was in a dangerous situation once. Home from college, he visited a friend. About five guys were visiting and drinking.
Someone they had gone to school with who had gotten into drugs and dropped out crashed their little party. One of the guys was a little drunk and began calling the drug dropout a loser. Druggie pulls out a gun and holds it to guy's head.
My son stayed calm and used his good communications skills to get the gunman to leave peaceably.
Recently I looked the gunman up on FB. Sober. Married.
My son saved two lives...without a gun. He would make a good hostage negotiator.

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Great testimony and great out come but the truth is not every situation will end like that one.

Fantine said:

So much catastrophizing. How hard emotionally to always be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My anger at the gun-obsessed has turned to pity.

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Many of those you see as "gun - obsessed" are actually freedom obsessed which is ultimately what this debate is about.

Yes, I have met the "freedom-obsessed." They are the scariest to me. They are like the people who heeded the call of a demagogue who had been legally and legitimately voted out of office on 1/6/21. They are people who believe that "throwing their weight around" is more important than democracy. They are people who are infiltrating our government with the sole purpose of denying the vote to those who disagree with them.

Where I live, you can't help being exposed to the "freedom-obsessed."

TBT, this state has a high rate of poverty. If they want "freedom," economic freedom, they should form unions, support living wages, etc.

Guns aren't very useful if you can't afford the ammo.

Fantine said:

They are people who are infiltrating our government with the sole purpose of denying the vote to those who disagree with them.

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I agree with this statement but I am not sure you have figured out who they are.

rturner76 said:

I don't disagree with this but I believe there are some Christians who refuse to kill period as in "thou shall not kill."

Many Christians believe there is nothing noble or godly in the taking of a life.

Yes, still many Christians believe it is wrong to take a life.

Could he have defended himself? I'm sure he could have toppled the entire Roman empire. But he chose peace. "Blessed are the peacemakers.:

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I believe "Thou shalt not kill" is better transltated "Thou shalt not murder"

This simple translation correction clears up a lot of things.

Check out: “Thou shalt not kill” vs. “Thou shalt not murder”

I may not know Hebrew, but I know of many scholars who do, and they all agree that the proper translation of Exodus 20:13 is “Thou shalt not murder.” As Professor Berel Lang of Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut has noted:

JacksBratt said:

I believe "Thou shalt not kill" is better transltated "Thou shalt not murder"

This simple translation correction clears up a lot of things.

Check out: “Thou shalt not kill” vs. “Thou shalt not murder”

I may not know Hebrew, but I know of many scholars who do, and they all agree that the proper translation of Exodus 20:13 is “Thou shalt not murder.” As Professor Berel Lang of Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut has noted:

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And I don't doubt that is the correct translation. I think Jesus is saying to lay your life down for your friends. I can't say if "laying your life down" means martyr yourself or defending your people by killing. In an ideal world, Christ would command that we disable an attacker (pepper spray, bean bag shotgun rounds, and other non-lethal ways of defending your family.

I really feel conflicted about this. On the one hand, Jesus is all loving all forgiving "Forgive them for they know not what they do." Then there is a passage where he says his apostles will need a sword. So it's kind of like are we pacifists and refuse to kill or do we kill in the name of Christ. Muslims have no conflict when it comes to killing in God's/Allahs name. I wonder if we should separate ourselves from those who kill in the name of God.

This is really not complicated. You are a martyr if you are killed for your stand for Christ. You are not a martyr if a lunatic breaks in your house and kills you for your TV. If said lunatic breaks in your house and threatens the life of your family you are worse than an infidel if you do not provide protection, which may resort to killing said lunatic.

I forget that there are people who are members of CF who live in gang-ridden Central America or dangerous inner cities or even war zones where such extreme measures are rational and even necessary. When Jesus said his disciples may need swords he was living in an occupied country where he was being plotted against...but hours later when Peter cut off a soldier's ear he healed the soldier.
For those of you on danger, I understand.

rturner76 said:

I believe there are some Christians who refuse to kill period as in "thou shall not kill."

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Some Christians realize that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the pricipalities and powers, evil spirits and such. So it is not really the people's fault who are trying to kill or rob you, it is all of the demonic opppression that they are under that goads them to do it...

Nevertheless, Jesus did say, anybody got a Sword? Welll we have two or three, Lord...
That's enough, He said. Why would He say this to His disciples?

Easy. He didn't say to have 52 guns and 10,000 rounds of ammo and nightvision and all that, He said a few guns will be important enough that if you don't have one then you should sell your cloak and buy one! Why? The cloak was a persons primary protection from the elements! It served as their coat and their sleeping bag. Now those are important! But a gun or three is still more important for some reason...Why would that be? Easy! Because sometimes what is called a "Sudden Emergency" crops up and there is no time to pray! Like a wack job going off and threatening or hurting innocents unnecssarily.
That is what guns are for.

I own a few guns and have carried one every day for the last 38 years or so. I have had a couple real close calls, but I have always found a way (by the grace of God) to protect and without a shot fired. I have never shot anyone and I thank God for that. I pray that I will never have to shoot anyone...but if a criminal is about to take a child's life or whatever then I'm going to shoot a cloverleaf on his forehead in defense of the child!

The best thing about carrying a gun is that it allows one a level of confidence that gives me extra time to think under the stress of the moment and to control the situation without bloodshed. So far it has worked, thank God!

So while I am Christian and do not want to ever shoot anyone, I also understand that there are people in the world that may force me to shoot them so it is as the spirit leads me to respond.

38 years packing a pistol and never had any gun charge! No menacing threats, no armed robbery, nothing!

Divide said:

Easy. He didn't say to have 52 guns and 10,000 rounds of ammo and nightvision and all that, He said a few guns will be important enough that if you don't have one then you should sell your cloak and buy one! Why?

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I think this statement was made by Jesus in regard to defending The Church. I'm not sure that it was made in relation to common crime. Though I don't deny that your interpretation is valid.

Divide said:

but if a criminal is about to take a child's life or whatever then I'm going to shoot a cloverleaf on his forehead in defense of the child!

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That is your right as a Christian and an American. I just also believe that pacifism is also valid in Christianity i.e. Martin Luther King and Gandhi etc. Those people refused to use violence under any circumstance. I believe that is also in line with Christian teaching. Still, Christianity has room for soldiers and police where public safety is their occupation

Divide said:

So while I am Christian and do not want to ever shoot anyone, I also understand that there are people in the world that may force me to shoot them so it is as the spirit leads me to respond.

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And that is your right

rturner76 said:

I think this statement was made by Jesus in regard to defending The Church. I'm not sure that it was made in relation to common crime. Though I don't deny that your interpretation is valid.

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Good point! The thing about scripture is that there are (at least) two aspects to it. The natural realm aspect, defense of the church and self. (We are the church). So on it's face is valid. Then we have the spiritual aspect of it, which is the essence of His word (?) or maybe the essensce is a third aspect of scripture? Either way we have some sort of biblical principle being given. So what could that be?

Well, we are to emulate Jesus, and He never hurt anyone, He healed them and even asked forgiveness for those who crucified Him! But on the other hand, we see all through scripture even old testament that, most people have to fight on this planet earth. The Lord had the Hebrews building a wall with one hand while they grasped their sword with the other! What makes us think that we are immune to ever having to fight and face that persecution like most of the people in the bible had to do? Are we better than them, exempt?

Consider, ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it...I believe He spoke of the church? (On this rock I build my church...). So let's consider the gates of hell for a moment. What is a gate? An access point through a fencing structure, right? So by design, isn't all gates a defensive item? Yes Sir, gates are defensive in nature! That changes the whole tune of how I was taught to believe that scripture!

If the gates of hell will not prevail, does that not suggest an attack? (by the church?!)

rturner76 said:

That is your right as a Christian and an American. I just also believe that pacifism is also valid in Christianity i.e. Martin Luther King and Gandhi etc. Those people refused to use violence under any circumstance. I believe that is also in line with Christian teaching. Still, Christianity has room for soldiers and police where public safety is their occupation

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Pacifism is very valid until they cross a line in the sand with their behavior and conduct! Having a sword or a pistol available handy is very prudent thing in today's world. When there's not time to pray etc..

But the amount of control that is afforded by being armed means that the power exists to deescalate the situation without violence or harm to anyone. That is how a man can carry a pistol for 38 years and never have to use it.

When and if it is my time and they want to chop off my head because of my belief in Jesus, then I will go without a fight. I know that is coming. But until then, no they are not allowed to go around harming people, murdering/raping/ whatever with no fear of defense from me.

When I lived in Colorado, I repelled a home invasion at the door and denied entry to him. I answered the door wearing my pistol because I always do and a car was right at my curb and the guy says, I need to use your phone I'm broke down...
My spidey sense started tingling and so I said, no you can't and even before I finished saying it he jumped me on the porch and we fought for about a minute. We broke the glass of the screen door. I got him one good one in his face and he backed up two steps, giving me a chance to draw on him. I drew quickly and suddenly he had a big 45 staring him in the face! It was weird, he looked at me for about 5 seconds and then he had forward motion towards me...what else could I do? I don't want to shoot him.

In that moment I saw that the sight of a gun did not deter him. I wondered if a warning shot would deter him? Do I have time to put one round in the grass in front of him while beginning a retreat into the house...and still be able to get a 2nd shot into him if he continued to advance towards into my house? Yes! I have that much time! That's an easy drill that I was used to at the range, lol. So that's what I did. I shot one time in front of him and that big man that would advance on a drawn gun suddenly wanted to try starting his broken down car one more time, for some strange reason, lol!

It was like in slow motion but I was thinking real fast and hoped that no one would have to get hurt. Plus, no he doesn't gain entry into my home!

So I won. He didn't get in. I denyied him entry. And (by the grace of God alone!) I didn't have to shoot him. I was shaking with adeniline after he left. Wow!

I was able to control the situation because of the presence of my gun. I went ahead and made a police report. They said make my day law I should have shot him and I laughed in his face. My luck aint that good and I don't have a "team" behind me like he does. Besides, I have read where shooting someone always affects you and never in a good way. I don't want that.

rturner76 said:

Still, Christianity has room for soldiers and police where public safety is their occupation

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Where public safety is their occupation? My friend, this would be incorrect. It has been tried in court and the finding was that the police have no duty to the individual citizen but only to the general public.

It seems a police car drove right past a woman being mugged and they didn't stop to help her and so she filed a suit. And she lost. She yelled to them for help, police! And they did not stop. I bet she carries a pistol now!

Divide said:

It seems a police car drove right past a woman being mugged and they didn't stop to help her and so she filed a suit. And she lost. She yelled to them for help, police! And they did not stop. I bet she carries a pistol now!

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And she has the right to do so. I'm not saying that Christians don't have the right to defend themselves. I am merely saying that I understand the pacifist point of view. I for example would rather someone kill me rather then take a life myself. What they did will on on their soul but I could go to my grave knowing that I never took a soul off the Earth. That's me but I see room for both points of view in Christianity.

Having said that I likely would seek to protect my mom, my siblings, and their kids as Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. That is totally Biblical. I don't disagree with you but I can understand the point of view of total pacifists.

rturner76 said:

And she has the right to do so. I'm not saying that Christians don't have the right to defend themselves. I am merely saying that I understand the pacifist point of view. I for example would rather someone kill me rather then take a life myself. What they did will on on their soul but I could go to my grave knowing that I never took a soul off the Earth. That's me but I see room for both points of view in Christianity.

Having said that I likely would seek to protect my mom, my siblings, and their kids as Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. That is totally Biblical. I don't disagree with you but I can understand the point of view of total pacifists.

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I think I kind of get it about pacifists but am not really sure. And I certainly was not given pacifism in my heart as a desire. The etymology of my name means , wealthy guardian. And my dad stuck a gun in my hand when I was like, 6 or so? I can't hardly remember a time when I gun was not within reach!


We all know that women run the country, right? They usually are the one who rules the household as well as the purse strings. So in a sense, she is in charge of the family.

Now that's cute and all and even I was not exempt from that. My wife was smart though so I let her have at it. And even though I did that and allowed her to have this power in the home, I always understood that the real responsibility for me as a husband and father was to provide sustenence and security. And women if they get scared, they will hand over to the man the control and instruct him (!!), feed us, save us, whatever. We can't let them down so we have to be ready. To accept the reins back and drive the team. My wife was scared of guns. She didn't want any in the house. Did I get rid of them? No! I might need them. When we she first moved in (pregnant) with me, she only then realized how many guns I owned and she said, if one gun goes off in the house, they are all gone!! I said fair enough. Lol!

Since there is no safety in ignorance and it's impossible to child proof a gun I had to approach it from a different direction. Gun-Proof the Kids! And so I began to teach the kids about them because you can't keep a child safe from guns by not owning them because they WILL be at their friends house when he pulls their dad's pistol out of his sock drawer. They have to know how to react in such a situation. I shook up cans of soda and let them shoot them with .22's. Boom! soad sprays everywhere, the can goes flying..."this is real, this isn't TV" and I gave them the split open can and told them, fix it, make it better. This is what would happen to mommey or your brother if you shot them! This is real, not TV!!

By age 8 I trusted them to walk behind me with a loaded rifle while hunting. And the momma? Oh, momma, you have to go to the range to? We have two kids? How can I watch both kids at once? She had to go! Lol! She used to complain at me for carrying a big pistol all the time. But there was 3 or 4 times when she was like, Do you have a pistol on you? Take over Husband! I don't feel safe! Yes dear, I'm packing, don't worry!

Just curious. Do those of you who carry guns abide by other far simpler and less dangerous safety precautions? Like wearing masks and getting vaccinated?

I know many conservatives don't.

How can one be so concerned about being one of the 22 in 100,000 people getting killed with guns (very low although much higher than other developed countries) and not take simple cautions to protect against serious illness?