GT Loved Ones, Help.

JoeyRatzinger · Apr 4, 2008

MoNiCa4316 said:
both Catholics and Protestants believe that justification happens by grace alone because of Christ's sacrifice...Catholics see that as a process and Protestants see it as something instantaneous. But both believe that Christians are "born again" and that faith is important...

For Catholics there is a list of things they must "do" in order to receive the grace of justification.
Justification and sanctification can NOT be seperated, which is hugely different than the fundamental evangelical view.
This difference is huge as it has an implication on exactly what is (FAITH)

sunlover1 · Apr 4, 2008

Ishida said:
You should at least be allowed to meet her.
Reminds me, I should visit my mother. -_-; Haven't talked to her since Christmas time, and I'm not 1/10th as busy as your son..

Oh man, visit the mom Ish !!

oops

sunlover1 · Apr 4, 2008

Ishida said:
You should at least be allowed to meet her.
Reminds me, I should visit my mother. -_-; Haven't talked to her since Christmas time, and I'm not 1/10th as busy as your son..

Oh man, visit the mom Ish !!

JoeyRatzinger said:
We are NOT both (reformed and UNreformed) right.

True dat.
We disagree and it's clear from the threads
in GT that it's sometimes even hateful.

Rhamiel said:
I am really sorry if I jumped the gun yesterday, bad day for me,

You were not rude, you never are.
Bless your heart for caring though.
They know we're Christians by our love,
ONE FOR ANOTHER!!

There are real problems that come up when Catholics and Protestants get married, but I would not say that it is a bad idea, it just makes things a little more complecated.
My mother is a member of the local methodist church, me and my dad go to our church on sunday mornings and she goes to her church. On easter me and my Dad went to sunrise service at her church because we think it is important to be together as a family for easter.

And I know it can work, but as parents we naturally
desire God's best plan for them, in all areas.

If a catholic marries a non-catholic they have to promise to raise the kids catholic, and they have to get married in a catholic church

I see. Thank you.
I was thinking that they had to convert.

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 4, 2008

JoeyRatzinger said:
For Catholics there is a list of things they must "do" in order to receive the grace of justification.

Joey, I really don't want to debate this here..
but..
Catholics don't believe in salvation by works.. if you have any questions, you're always welcome to ask at OBOB

Justification and sanctification can NOT be seperated, which is hugely different than the fundamental evangelical view.

I do not believe they are separated.. I do not think that the truth is so neat and simple..

This difference is huge as it has an implication on exactly what is (FAITH)

Faith is belief and trust in God...it is dead without works, as the Bible says...Catholicism emphasizes both of these points we are saved by grace, through a living faith. That is totally Biblical. We can not be saved by a 'dead' faith because then it's just words, and not from the heart.

Peace

SpiritualAntiseptic · Apr 4, 2008

JoeyRatzinger said:
For Catholics there is a list of things they must "do" in order to receive the grace of justification.
Justification and sanctification can NOT be seperated, which is hugely different than the fundamental evangelical view.
This difference is huge as it has an implication on exactly what is (FAITH)

Catholics don't say 'grace of justification'. The grace is sanctifying. So I'm not sure where you are saying there is a disagreement between protestants and Catholics. I'm not sure why you think there is a difference in the understanding and role of faith.

As far as having to 'do' things- that is the case for both protestants and Catholics. Evangelical protestants have to 'do' things in order to become Christian- such as having faith in Christ, repenting of their sins and doing something like a 'sinners prayer' in addition to having to 'do' things that if you didn't, people would say you weren't really Christian.

JoeyRatzinger · Apr 4, 2008

MoNiCa4316 said:
we are saved by grace, through a living faith.

So the question is, do you agree "That we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ alone"?

If not our view of both justification and faith are substantially different.

WashedClean · Apr 4, 2008

OK, since my post seems to be misinterpreted, let me clarify.

I never said Catholics are not Christian. But belonging to a church/denomination or simply attending church "religiously" does not make someone a Christian. I'm married to a man who was raised Catholic, but is not "practicing". He believes Jesus "historically" but is not born again and has not placed his faith in Jesus for salvation. Therefore, we are unequally yoked. Is he an atheist? Not at all. A pagan? Far from it. But I am in the light and he is in the dark, spiritually. Does that make me better than him, of course not.

Although there are substantial differences between Catholics and Protestants, if both are true believers, the marriage is not unequally yoked. God does not care what church we attend. He cares about our heart and devotion to him.

My advice was to find out if this girl is truly a Christ follower and go from there. Don't overreact just yet. The bottom line is that sunlover's son is 20 years old and her relationship with him is the most important part of all this. I agree she should be friend to him first, but she should most certainly be concerned.

For the record, if her son said she was attending an Evangelical church, I wouldn't assume she was a Christian either. You can't tell until you meet someone and talk to them about their faith, and even then, only God knows for sure.

I hope this helps clarify my position in the matter.

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 4, 2008

I was met with just as much opposition from Catholics when I was dating one as those who weren't Catholic...perhaps even more.

In the counseling sessions I started for getting my annullment, it was generally assumed I was converting, several times. And each time, when I corrected the priest, he would tell me all the reasons I should convert. In fact, the one priest that we were thinking about in terms of doing the wedding said that he wouldn't do the wedding unless I converted.

His parents? Hated me. Hated me because I was Lutheran. His mom said, to my face, that I could've been any other religion and it wouldn't have bothered her as much, but no, I had to be LUTHERAN. It drove her nuts that her son was dating a heretic.

His grandma wouldn't even speak to me once she found out that I was not Catholic.

My family, while they had their misgivings about me marrying a Catholic, still welcomed Chris into the family with open and loving arms.

Again, shame on you guys who think there is something bad about sunlover's question. It is a valid question. There ARE many differences between protestants and Catholics. Some are not easily worked around. I know for myself I could not be married to someone who wasn't confident of their salvation.

And I ask again, if your child approached you and told you that they were dating a protestant, would your reaction be the same as what you've told sunlover to do? Would it REALLY?

Honestly, think about that the next time before you post something rude here because someone has concerns.

Rhamiel · Apr 4, 2008

WashedClean,

I never said Catholics are not Christian. But belonging to a church/denomination or simply attending church "religiously" does not make someone a Christian

I am sorry if I jumped the gun, it is just it seems like people assume that catholics are not christian, and if you are a protestant it is just assumed you are a christian, I did not mean to judge you. sorry
Preacherswife2004, I am sorry you have had a negative experiance with catholics, not all of us are like that

Rhamiel · Apr 4, 2008

Although there are substantial differences between Catholics and Protestants, if both are true believers, the marriage is not unequally yoked. God does not care what church we attend. He cares about our heart and devotion to him.

thank you for clarifiny

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 4, 2008

Rhamiel said:
WashedClean, I am sorry if I jumped the gun, it is just it seems like people assume that catholics are not christian, and if you are a protestant it is just assumed you are a christian, I did not mean to judge you. sorry
Preacherswife2004, I am sorry you have had a negative experiance with catholics, not all of us are like that

Oh, I realize that, thankfully. But it does bring up that these are things that need to be taken into consideration when we are dating someone who is not the same "religion" as we are.

I dated other guys who weren't Lutheran and weren't Catholic. A few were Methodists, one was AoG. None of the relationships worked, because we couldn't come together on matters of faith. I didn't want to stop attending my church, he didn't want to stop attending his, I would want the children at my church, and vice versa.

My aunt and uncle came from a mixed background. He was Lutheran and she was Catholic. Since they couldn't agree on what church to go to, etc., they both quit and became non-denom. The church they attend now has a very watered down law/gospel approach. It's more about how THEY feel...I think they and their kids all lost in that deal.

Anyway, I realize that not all Catholics are like that.

sunlover1 · Apr 4, 2008

SpiritualAntiseptic said:
I'm curious, if he said she was part of the same protestant denomination as you- would you question their faith in the same way as you clearly do Catholics?

I dont belong to a denomination.
But the answer that I'd hope to hear is,
"she's a strong Christian".
He mentioned TWO churches she attends, remember.
One protestant and one Catholic.

I never understood people that questioned the faith for others. What basis do you have for questioning hers?

WEll we view life through different sets of lenses then.
It's the first question out of my mouth when any of
my kids meet a new friend.

SpiritualAntiseptic said:
What I find interesting in how many people here talk about how all that matters is faith in Jesus. They'll say that no one is 100% correct about anything, but all that really matters is that you put faith in Christ, go to Church, et cetera.

Going to church isnt one of my criteria.
A saving faith isnt even what I'm hoping for for my kids.
My ministry is raising up godly children for His team,
to further His kingdom. I'm hoping for much
more than a saving faith in their future spouses.
These men are going to be leaders, are already leaders.
If I shared their stories you'd think me a braggart.
They dont need to be distracted with tricks, but they're
young, been there done that, been tricked been burned,
got distracted, backslidden... lost good time.
(but whoever they choose will be cherished and loved with no reservations, by their mother in law.)

Then when they find out someone is dating a Catholic, it is a crisis. I can't imagine their reaction to someone actually converting. If being a Christian, believing in Jesus was all that matter, then all this talk about being 'un-equally yoked' is nonsense.

Most of america is 'christian'. Yet the Bible says that
straight is the gate and narrow is the path that leads
to life and few find it.
Believing in Jesus isnt all that matters. Most of the
world believes in Jesus.

Rhamiel said:
Mon
up untill now I have only heard the term unequally yoked used with pagans or atheists, some people in this thread are using it for any major differance in belief.
I think that is why some catholics are flipping out over this a little bit

Well we all have to be 'honest' though.
Look at the top ten threads at any given moment
and I'm thinking the majority of them will be
Protestants versus Cath/Eo beliefs.
Some major differences evidently. Shoot, didja see
Preacherswifes testimony? And me too, I was a cath
girl, my ex husbands mom was so distraught that he
was dating me. And she didnt keep it secret.

sunlover1 · Apr 4, 2008

WashedClean said:
For the record, if her son said she was attending an Evangelical church, I wouldn't assume she was a Christian either. You can't tell until you meet someone and talk to them about their faith, and even then, only God knows for sure.

I hope this helps clarify my position in the matter.

Amen, yes, this is more important than anything else!
I dont care about anything else, just that she's
a strong Christian. If they were to get serious...
I want my grandkids to have a mom who knows how
to pray for her family, who puts God first, honors her
husband, one who he can trust, who's worth is far
above rubies.
Dont want much do I?

PreachersWife2004 said:
In the counseling sessions I started for getting my annullment, it was generally assumed I was converting, several times. And each time, when I corrected the priest, he would tell me all the reasons I should convert. In fact, the one priest that we were thinking about in terms of doing the wedding said that he wouldn't do the wedding unless I converted.

Daughters friends granny wouldnt come to friend's
wedding because it wasnt in a Catholic church.

His parents? Hated me. Hated me because I was Lutheran. His mom said, to my face, that I could've been any other religion and it wouldn't have bothered her as much, but no, I had to be LUTHERAN. It drove her nuts that her son was dating a heretic.

His grandma wouldn't even speak to me once she found out that I was not Catholic.

And this is so common, prot v cath.
Maybe the Capulets and the Montagues
were different religions lol.

My family, while they had their misgivings about me marrying a Catholic, still welcomed Chris into the family with open and loving arms.

That's the right attitude, the other can only alienate imo.

And I ask again, if your child approached you and told you that they were dating a protestant, would your reaction be the same as what you've told sunlover to do? Would it REALLY?

Thank you PW, you're a wise woman.

CathNancy · Apr 5, 2008

Sunlover in all honesty, I do think that a marriage has a better chance at success if both parties are of the same faith tradition, but this is not to say that a Catholic and a Protestant cannot have a good marriage as well, my youngest sister is an example of this. I will also say though that my sister is a devout practicing Catholic and her husband although a good husband and loving father, is not devoted to any denomination, and consequently he has not objected to my niece being raised Catholic. I would imagine that this would not be the case if both parties felt stongly about their faith.

There are major differences between the theology of Catholics and Protestants and I would say in all honestly that my preference for my sons would be that they marry Catholics, but this is not my choice so I pray that whoever they marry that they be a stong Christian woman. Both of my sons have walked away from not just the Catholic Church, but Christianity as well, adopting a new age type of philosophy so if they were to marry a woman who is a devout Christian Protestant, rather than a devout Christian Catholic, I would still be thankful to God. I pray daily that God bring them home and at the moment I don't care on which path He leads them.

PreachersWife I am so sorry that your experience with Catholic Christians has been so hurtful. I am happy to hear though that you do realize that we are not all like that.

Finally I will also say that what I and many Catholics find disturbing is the implication if not the out and out statement that Catholics are not Christians. I find the statement not so much offensive as hurtful.

God Bless,
Nancy

sunlover1 · Apr 6, 2008

CathNancy said:
Sunlover in all honesty, I do think that a marriage has a better chance at success if both parties are of the same faith tradition,...

Thanks CathNancy (you have my mom's and sister's name
all in one!)

There are major differences between the theology of Catholics and Protestants and I would say in all honestly that my preference for my sons would be that they marry Catholics, but this is not my choice so I pray that whoever they marry that they be a stong Christian woman.

Both of my sons have walked away from not just the Catholic Church, but Christianity as well, adopting a new age type of philosophy so if they were to marry a woman who is a devout Christian Protestant, rather than a devout Christian Catholic, I would still be thankful to God. I pray daily that God bring them home and at the moment I don't care on which path He leads them.

They're not old yet!

(train up a child in the way he should go
and when he is old, he will not depart from it)

Finally I will also say that what I and many Catholics find disturbing is the implication if not the out and out statement that Catholics are not Christians. I find the statement not so much offensive as hurtful.

God Bless,
Nancy

Sure, and we here dont say that.
The area that I live in is mostly reformed; protestant
reformed, Christian Reformed...etc. (denominations).
And I have met many people over the years who
dont seem to really know God, but rather go to church
on Sunday for social reasons, or such.
Same with the catholic churches I've seen.

So while I feel just as you do, and prefer that my kids
choose to stay in common denominations, I dont
intend to watch them choose dead protestants either.
I will fight for them (in prayer).

I spoke with my pastor today, on behalf of a friend
who's nephew's house is haunted, but didnt ask him
about my situation, because I've gone to God and
believe that God has a plan for this child, (and the
girl) and so I will "be still and know" that He's GOD!

Thank you for being such a blessing!
love,
sunlover

Thekla · Apr 6, 2008

hi, Sunlover

it may not apply, but read this - it was valuable for me - and thought to post it here:

"He who anguishes over evils that have not even befallen him but fears that they may come carries a heavy cross with no help. When evils do come, they never come alone. Divine help accompanies them and does not permit evils to weigh more heavily on us than our shoulders are able to bear." A. Kalomiros

but I think you knew that

sunlover1 · Apr 6, 2008

Thekla said:
hi, Sunlover

it may not apply, but read this - it was valuable for me - and thought to post it here:

"He who anguishes over evils that have not even befallen him but fears that they may come carries a heavy cross with no help. When evils do come, they never come alone. Divine help accompanies them and does not permit evils to weigh more heavily on us than our shoulders are able to bear." A. Kalomiros

but I think you knew that

You're always so eloquent arent you?!
That's super and I thank you for thinking
of me Thekla. It's so cool to see God's love
in people, He's amazing.

Your quote reminded me that God has already
made provision for us before we entered into
the 'perceived' problem.
Just as He did with His Son!

BrotherDave · Apr 8, 2008

Here is my 2cts worth.

I believe it is a big deal, because I believe we are not to divorce (Matt 19:3-6). Marriage is until death do us part, good and bad. Thats the whole purpose of dating to make sure as best you can you are compatible. Marriage is not easy.

When the excitement and newness wears out thats when the little differences become bigger and bigger. And if one is growing in grace and the other is not then the struggle can be very difficult, especially if both are committed to their different religions. Then, should they be blessed with children one day, the poor child or children will be getting different instructions and could end up not believing since everyone says God is not the author of confusion and there is only one true gospel but his parents believe different things.

Another alternative is to worship together outside a church and let God bring understanding as you study scripture together. When you see whats going on in churches today and you understand the warnings in Daniel 7, Matt 24, I Peter 4:17, 2 Cor 11:13-15, II Thessalonians 2:1-4this is the best approach-I think. The problem though will be if she thinks she has to do some sort of work in order to be saved. Not to mention the pressure she would get from her family.

Of course God is in control and has a plan. But he also tests us (I Thess 2:4). Will we do things his way, or are we going to say one thing and actually do something else that makes us feel better (Mat 15:8). My experience has been it is much more difficult to do the right thing.

Its a tough one. I know. My father used to be Catholic, mom protestant. I grew up in a Portuguese and Italian fishing port on the East Coast and 95% of my friends were Catholic, my wifes family is catholic, (although her mother - not so much these days) and my wife favors Catholicism. For some reason I never bought in to it, actually kind of scared me. Never really thought it mattered as long as you believe. But as I grew older and God drew me more and more into the Bible I came to realize that it does matter (2 Tim 4:3, John 14:24).

So, not much help I guess. God created us all with the physical desires we have and the man/woman relationship is where our focus is most severely tested. Our focus must always be to bring the Gospel. All you can do you is love them, make sure your son understands that God should be first in his life and that marriage is a very serious thing, as is not being led astray by another gospel (Gal 1; 9, Eph 4:14). Tough stuff for a young man in love to acknowledge though.

The best advice as you know is to pray about it, guide your son as best you can and trust in the Lord.

Rhamiel · Apr 18, 2008

have you got to talk to the young lady yet?

sunlover1 · Apr 18, 2008

Rhamiel said:
have you got to talk to the young lady yet?

He just recently returned from Calif.
I'd totally surrendered this to God,
(always seeking God rather than ours right)
I know he's seeing her because when I asked
where his itouch was (was going to suggest
I buy it from him since he has an iphone) he
said, "mary has it.

Shorter answer, I have not made a single move...
TY for reminding me. I feel like I should
be doing something, but not sure what.
Fasting (darn flesh of mine) might be the answer.

I raised my kids to be independant, sigh.

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