Growing Up With Tradition

[Terri]

I personally never wanted to leave (especially for a non-denom baptist style church). Since I have been reading a lot of theology this year, I have understood more and more that what I believe is too much diferent to stay, even if it does upset my parents. (I know, I know, I'm a grown man. I just like keeping the peace, if you know what I mean.)

Lotar are these doctrine differences you are talking about or just the rituals and tradition??

My Dear Husband was raised in the Lutheran church and I don't believe that I know of any major differences of doctrine between Baptist and Lutheran. The only differences I know of are involved with rituals and traditions. My husband is very happy to be free of the traditions as is your family it sounds.

Do you know what is it about the traditions that makes you feel drawn to them?

Now, I'm not trying to convence you of anything. Just curious!!

 

[Rechtgläubig]

Here's my baptism. What can I say, I started believing when I was young

A Christian for about 23 years now? Awesome.

Oh, when describing the church, I forgot about the kneelers in the pews, that way we could kneel for the prayers.

Wish we had them too!

Calvary attempts to prevent tradition, which I disagree with very much. So, communion is random, they have gone nearly half the year without it before and the two services in a row

Sorry to hear that Lotar.

 

[Phoebe]

Ah- to be home again.

I like this thread.

I didn't have pictures taken at my baptism. I wasn't baptized until I was about ten. I have my confirmation picture. (1 Corinthians 1:6)

I am ELCA. I grew up in the American Lutheran Church. (there used to be more divisions in the Lutheran church- for lack of a better term in my vocab.)



You guys were lucky. I had Confirmation for three years! 7,8, and 9th grades. I enjoyed Catechism the most. Pr. Darge was good at explaining things.
My current church doesn't have the stained glass windows. I think cost was a factor when the cornerstone was laid. We use the Lutheran Book of Woship- green, and With One Voice- blue for our liturgy.
One of the most impressive sanctuaries that I've seen in a Lutheran church was St. Matthew's in Paducah, Kentucky. It was semi- circular. The windows were beautiful.

As far as Scripture and doctrine are concerned, the Lutheran church is good at teaching these. I am sometimes amazed at things that other denominations don't know. Of course, I think the Lutherans are in first or second place for having centers for higher education. (colleges) Music and education are very important to our denomination. We don't push proselyting. (taking people from other denominations)

My favorite church season is Easter. The lilies fill the sanctuary, our vestments are white and gold. It is truly a brand new start.

 

[James Sez]

Okay, sometimes I see Protestants going around criticizing "Catholic" practices, that Protestants would never do. I just thought it would fun to go through these "Catholic only" practices that I curiously grew up with.

So I would like to dedicate this thread to the traditional Protestants, where we can come and share pictures/experiences and explain practices.

I was going to a ELCA Lutheran church and then switched to a non-denominational church due to a move. Now I am church hunting after another move and this thread has made me miss the Lutheran church. Lotar, I think I might join you in your return to the Lutheran church. I'm not sure yet but I miss the tradition, especially the weekly eucharist. I'm also thinking of becoming a Russian Orthodox Lutheran Evangelical-Episcopalian Methodist (ROLE-EM) monk -my fav traditions. I suppose I'll have to be a hermit because I will be the only ROLE-EM monk.

 

[Breetai]

I don't have any pics of my church, but the church's website does (the church that I went to in high school). http://www.lutheranparish.org/

No kneelers in my church either

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hey Lotar. . thanks for sharing the pic's with us. . .I enjoyed them

 

[Jason1646]

Thanks for those pics, Lotar, they were great ... brought back memories.

Speaking of which, you may enjoy this little anecdote. At the time of my confirmation, we happened to be reading Moby Dick in school. Well, you know how you are supposed to choose a 'confirmation name', which the bishop himself uses during the administration of the sacrament? Well, when it came time to choose a name, the first line of Moby Dick popped into my head, "call me Ishmael". So, that's what I blurted out and that became my confirmation name! LOL ... it wasn't until later as a Protestant that I appreciated the fact that Ishmael was the one who did not receive the covenant, I guess it was a self-fulfilling prophecy of my departure from Roman Catholicism. No wonder the bishop had a strange look on his face when he spoke my confirmation name.

~Jason

 

[eldermike]

the first line of Moby Dick popped into my head, "call me Ishmael".

This is funny stuff, thanks for posting it

 

[JVAC]

Lotar are these doctrine differences you are talking about or just the rituals and tradition??

My Dear Husband was raised in the Lutheran church and I don't believe that I know of any major differences of doctrine between Baptist and Lutheran. The only differences I know of are involved with rituals and traditions. My husband is very happy to be free of the traditions as is your family it sounds.

Do you know what is it about the traditions that makes you feel drawn to them?

Now, I'm not trying to convence you of anything. Just curious!!

It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus

Baptists are a type of "anabaptist", in that they believe you have to first have faith. I don't know if they really "anabaptise" (rebaptise) but I imagine they do, most 'believer baptism churches' don't recognize infant baptism. Whereas the Lutheran Church views baptism as a undeserved gift from God, where we are given the opportunity/dedicated to become children of God (After Jesus was baptised the holy spirit decended like a dove and a voice from heaven announced "Behold, this is my son, whom I am well pleased") The Lutheran Church only baptizes adults if they weren't baptized before.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

The Baptists don't subscribe to the "Real Presence". This is what keeps us from being in Common Communion, (like we are with the Anglicans, Moravians, Presbyterians, etc.). Real Presence cannot be denied in the Eucharist.

This might seem like small differences, but for a Lutheran/Episcopalian sacraments are extraordinary manifestations of Grace and Love. Sacraments are basically physical Grace. So these are some differences (bigger than small) between the two denominations, you probably could find more.



Baptist information from: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
Lutheran information from: www.elca.org www.lcms.org www.wels.net



-James

 

[Lotar]

Lotar are these doctrine differences you are talking about or just the rituals and tradition??

Infant baptism, and the view on baptism is one.
The views on predestination and OSAS.
Communion.
There are quite a few differences.

My Dear Husband was raised in the Lutheran church and I don't believe that I know of any major differences of doctrine between Baptist and Lutheran. The only differences I know of are involved with rituals and traditions. My husband is very happy to be free of the traditions as is your family it sounds.

We didn't leave because of the traditions, it was because some problems in our church and how our pastor was dealing with them, or rather, not dealing. Personally, I like the traditions.

Do you know what is it about the traditions that makes you feel drawn to them?

A lot of it seems a lot more respectful to me, especially when it comes to communion.
And I loath contemporary praise music

But it is more the doctrine, and the fact that they actually teach doctrine at Lutheran churches. I'm getting really tired of hearing the same 8 evangelistic messages week after week.

Now, I'm not trying to convence you of anything. Just curious!!

Hey, if you could convince me, you'd save me a load of headaches from my parents

 

[II Paradox II]

The Baptists don't subscribe to the "Real Presence". This is what keeps us from being in Common Communion, (like we are with the Anglicans, Moravians, Presbyterians, etc.). Real Presence cannot be denied in the Eucharist.

This is for the most part true, but not universal. I am a reformed baptist and I ascribe to a Calvinistic spiritual presence view of the eucharist (like a presbyterian). On the whole though, most baptists do take a memorialist view...

ken

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

[/color][/color]
Hey, if you could convince me, you'd save me a load of headaches from my parents

Have you considered a different Calvary Chapel? In my younger days and when I lived in Calif, I and several friends attended the free Saturday night concerts every week at the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (the original). It was never the same sermon twice and I learned a lot.

 

[Lotar]

Have you considered a different Calvary Chapel? In my younger days and when I lived in Calif, I and several friends attended the free Saturday night concerts every week at the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (the original). It was never the same sermon twice and I learned a lot.

I've been to a few. Right now I attend Harvest Christian Fellowship, I've been to Applegate, and one other, I can't remember right now. But at Harvest, because Greg Laurie is gone probably 25% of the year, we get a lot of guest speakers. It's not that they are the same exact sermon, I was exagerating but nearly all are extremely similiar, whoever gives the message.

My biggest reason are doctrinal reasons, though.

 

[Lotar]

Ah- to be home again.

I like this thread.

I didn't have pictures taken at my baptism. I wasn't baptized until I was about ten. I have my confirmation picture. (1 Corinthians 1:6)

I am ELCA. I grew up in the American Lutheran Church. (there used to be more divisions in the Lutheran church- for lack of a better term in my vocab.)



You guys were lucky. I had Confirmation for three years! 7,8, and 9th grades. I enjoyed Catechism the most. Pr. Darge was good at explaining things.
My current church doesn't have the stained glass windows. I think cost was a factor when the cornerstone was laid. Wre use the Lutheran Book of Woship- green, and With One Voice- blue for our liturgy.
One of the most impressive santuaries that I've seen in a Lutheran church was St. Matthew's in Paducah, Kentucky. It was semi- circular. The windows were beautiful.

As far as Scripture and doctrine are concerned, the Lutheran church is good at teaching these. I am sometimes amazed at things that other denominations don't know. Of course, I think the Lutherans are in first or second place for having centers for higher education. (colleges) Music and education are very important to our denomination. We don't push proselyting. (taking people from other denominations)

My favorite church season is Easter. The lilies fill the sanctuary, our vestments are white and gold. It is truly a brand new start.

Three years!!! Actually, I wouldn't have minded another year. Our first year was really a waste, the youth pastor wasn't very good at his job, but I really liked the second year with the head pastor.

LCMS has the most schools and colleges and ELCA I believe has the second most of all the denominations.

 

[Terri]

Infant baptism, and the view on baptism is one.
The views on predestination and OSAS.
Communion.
There are quite a few differences.

OK, I don't see these as major differences in doctrine. To me a major difference would be not understanding grace... or not knowing that Jesus' sacrifice paid for ALL of our sins.

I don't really see as any of the things you listed changes our salvation. But, I respect your right to choose a church based on your beliefs in regard to these issues.

I would certainly never tell someone that they shouldn't go to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church because to me they have a full grasp of the truths of God that I feel are so important and they are very good at teaching them.

I personally don't care for rituals, but I believe that when you have the basic truths everything is permissible.

Now, I do believe that some people can become legalistic about not having any traditions. I would say your church has gone there if they won't even have communion regularly because it might seem like a tradition. I have no problem with traditions that come from the bible as does communion and baptism.

A lot of it seems a lot more respectful to me, especially when it comes to communion.

Now what you see as disrespect, I see as trying to have a communion like the one Jesus had when he institued it. You know very simple with no pomp and ceremony: Less emphasis on what people are doing and more emphasis on thinking about Jesus. Not that I believe you can't have pomp and ceremony and still be thinking about Jesus. But, to some of us it is too distracting.

I hope you don't look down on the way other choose to do their communion in a way that they feel gives more glory to God.

My husband said he was an alter boy and the pastor would tell jokes between the groups of people coming up for communion. So, I don't think that there is always the superior respect that it may look like for afar.

But it is more the doctrine, and the fact that they actually teach doctrine at Lutheran churches. I'm getting really tired of hearing the same 8 evangelistic messages week after week.

I think the teaching of doctrine is definitely one of the strong points of the Lutheran church. But I'm wondering if there is really that much left for you to learn. You seem so knowledgable it seems to me that you should be teaching by now. Truthfully I would love to see people like you teach at the church that you are at because there are so many that are not taught the basics. Does your church have Sunday school or some classes where all of your knowledge could benefit others?

 

[JVAC]

OK, I don't see these as major differences in doctrine. To me a major difference would be not understanding grace... or not knowing that Jesus' sacrifice paid for ALL of our sins.

It would be a major doctrinal issue if you believed that babies couldn't be saved without the grace of baptism. I, myself, feel that everyone needs grace and the grace given at infancy is a must. A baby can't have faith, and so is dead in its own sins, but through baptismal grace it is vivified in Christ. This is a big doctrinal issue, (not all Lutherans are in agreement, but there are those that feel this way, myself included).

Plus anabaptists tend to not recognize our baptism, which we regard as Mark 16:16 states as well as John 3:5. We set great store in baptism, the anabaptists not as much. I can go on at great length, but I only wished to illustrate why this is a very decisive doctrinal issue.

So can you see how this would cause a doctrinal problem?

 

[Lotar]

OK, I don't see these as major differences in doctrine. To me a major difference would be not understanding grace... or not knowing that Jesus' sacrifice paid for ALL of our sins.

I don't really see as any of the things you listed changes our salvation. But, I respect your right to choose a church based on your beliefs in regard to these issues.

Well, it depends on what you consider different. I just would rather attend a church that agrees with my beliefs, it seems to me that that is an important thing when choosing a church

I would certainly never tell someone that they shouldn't go to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church because to me they have a full grasp of the truths of God that I feel are so important and they are very good at teaching them.

I personally don't care for rituals, but I believe that when you have the basic truths everything is permissible.

Now, I do believe that some people can become legalistic about not having any traditions. I would say your church has gone there if they won't even have communion regularly because it might seem like a tradition. I have no problem with traditions that come from the bible as does communion and baptism.

Ya, Calvary Chapel is a little tradition-phobic. I don't mind a church not being traditional, it's just when they go out of their way to try and prevent it...

Now what you see as disrespect, I see as trying to have a communion like the one Jesus had when he institued it. You know very simple with no pomp and ceremony: Less emphasis on what people are doing and more emphasis on thinking about Jesus. Not that I believe you can't have pomp and ceremony and still be thinking about Jesus. But, to some of us it is too distracting.

I hope you don't look down on the way other choose to do their communion in a way that they feel gives more glory to God.

My husband said he was an alter boy and the pastor would tell jokes between the groups of people coming up for communion. So, I don't think that there is always the superior respect that it may look like for afar.

I wouldn't call it pomp, it involves a lot of praying and contemplating. There isn't a whole lot of ceremony involved. I understand that there will be some who will not treat it with respect, but on the whole, there is a lot more.

I think the teaching of doctrine is definitely one of the strong points of the Lutheran church. But I'm wondering if there is really that much left for you to learn. You seem so knowledgable it seems to me that you should be teaching by now. Truthfully I would love to see people like you teach at the church that you are at because there are so many that are not taught the basics. Does your church have Sunday school or some classes where all of your knowledge could benefit others?

Thanks for the compliment but there's always more to learn. I currently teach 1st grade, but that's all just bible stories and veggie tales

There are classes, but they are all really basic. The nice thing about non-denom churches is that they read the bible a lot, but the bad thing about non-denoms is that is all they do. Other than a Christian basics class taught by a pastor, there are no classes on deeper things. Plus, because of some of my beliefs, I'd get kicked out if I taught them. One middle school teacher got kicked out for teaching too strict of Calvinism, when we are basically a 3.5 point Calvinist church, imagine if I taught infant baptism

I would really like to teach, but I would not like to restrict what I teach or teach things I don't believe.

 

[Polycarp1]

Staffs? Well, when a Bishop visits a church, he carries it in the procession at the opening hymn, hands it off to an acolyte, and recovers it for the "recession" at the closing hymn. The only ceremonial use I know of for it, other than as a symbol of his pastorate over his diocese, is when he dedicates a new church building, where he marks the main entry with the sign of the cross to signify that it's being set apart for church purposes, using the foot of the staff to do so.

Though I suppose it might come in handy if someone else preaches and tells a bad joke in their sermon!

 

[BAChristian]

Nice pics Lotar.

 

[Phoebe]

Staffs? Well, when a Bishop visits a church, he carries it in the procession at the opening hymn, hands it off to an acolyte, and recovers it for the "recession" at the closing hymn. The only ceremonial use I know of for it, other than as a symbol of his pastorate over his diocese, is when he dedicates a new church building, where he marks the main entry with the sign of the cross to signify that it's being set apart for church purposes, using the foot of the staff to do so.

Though I suppose it might come in handy if someone else preaches and tells a bad joke in their sermon!

Hi Polycarp!
I went to a Good Friday service at our local Episcopal church. My church (congregation) helped with the service. We read the Passion in parts.