Group guilt

[Kevin throwe]

With the anniversary of Auschwitz having just past and the stories of the sins committed by the Germans and seeing America starting down that same path, I cannot help but wonder where the divide between salvation and damnation was and is. The spectrum is between those actively committing the sins , those supporting the actions, those knowing of the actions but remaining silent , those with a clue but working hard to ignore the sins they know in there hearts their government is committing thru those pointing out the wrongs to those actively and dangerously working to stop the sins. At some point in a nation becoming completely sinful there must be a collective guilt? We know Jesus instructed us to be aware of the suffering of others.

 

[stevevw]

Yes and I think this is beginning to come out due to recent events. There is a sense of change, of reflection and even fear of what is happening. This has caused some Christians to step back and rethink things and reprove their faith.

At the same time I think it is the current generation of young Christians and even non Christians that are looking at all the chaos and evil and are leading the way and getting back to being more Christlike.

I think this is the only solution. Getting back to being exactly how Christ taught Christians should be. Like Paul taught. Sacrificing self and not engaging in the same culture wars. Seperating themselves and setting an example that cannot be corrupted or charged with indiscretions.

I think this is taking on Christs guilt in that Christians are sacrificing themselves for others. They are becoming servants to the lost by becoming the ones who forgoing the world and showing a different way. That not only exposes the sin and evil in the world. But points people to God by exampling Christ. By giving of self for others.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, speaking out is not the same as showing how.

 

[RamiC]

At some point in a nation becoming completely sinful there must be a collective guilt? We know Jesus instructed us to be aware of the suffering of others.

What exactly is the point at which a nation has become "completely sinful"? Nation's are not individual people, and in a democracy leaders can only be voted out when there is an election available to do it, in a dictatorship it takes more than a willingness to bring down the leader, a viable opportunity is required as well.

It is all very well thinking the state of affairs is deeply regrettable, but when we start wishing things had been prevented we might tend to assume that they could have been prevented without any realistic grounds.

 

[Kevin throwe]

What exactly is the point at which a nation has become "completely sinful"? Nation's are not individual people, and in a democracy leaders can only be voted out when there is an election available to do it, in a dictatorship it takes more than a willingness to bring down the leader, a viable opportunity is required as well.

It is all very well thinking the state of affairs is deeply regrettable, but when we start wishing things had been prevented we might tend to assume that they could have been prevented without any realistic grounds.

You think Nazi Germany was not completely sinful? As I saw the report of the guards pushing naked prisoners into gas chambers, I thought about their guilt and their salvation. Seeing America following this path , as Germany did in the 30’s, I wondered for the souls of Americans. No need to go to a singular personal level.

 

[iarwain]

With the anniversary of Auschwitz having just past and the stories of the sins committed by the Germans and seeing America starting down that same path

Sorry, that's a ridiculous assertion.

 

[Kevin throwe]

Sorry, that's a ridiculous assertion.

So you don’t see this America following the path of hate and bigotry?

 

[RamiC]

You think Nazi Germany was not completely sinful?

At what point do you think Germany became something you can call a completely sinful country?

As I saw the report of the guards pushing naked prisoners into gas chambers, I thought about their guilt and their salvation.

What did you think about their guilt and salvation?

Seeing America following this path, as Germany did in the 30’s, I wondered for the souls of Americans.

I am not in the USA, but I can see why you think there are some similarities.

No need to go to a singular personal level.

That is the level at which people can be guilty of sin, that is the level at which they can be forgiven for sin.

A country can decide it should change (as Germany and Japan both indeed did after WW2). As far as I am aware Americans are free to consider changes to their country and make the ones they see fit to make.

 

[RamiC]

So you don’t see this America following the path of hate and bigotry?

I see hate and bigotry never went very far, there is a worldwide problem there. I do not see much "this America" is doing that especially makes it equate to "Nazi" Germany, not more than many other things, the old segregation laws were surely motivated by hate and bigotry?

I repeat, there is a human race problem with hate and bigotry, there always has been, it is not a USA right now thing.

 

[Kevin throwe]

At what point do you think Germany became something you can call a completely sinful country?


What did you think about their guilt and salvation?


I am not in the USA, but I can see why you think there are some similarities.


That is the level at which people can be guilty of sin, that is the level at which they can be forgiven for sin.

A country can decide it should change (as Germany and Japan both indeed did after WW2). As far as I am aware Americans are free to consider changes to their country and make the ones they see fit to make.

Not as good at WW II history as my college roommate, but I would say in the 40’s as the Nazi’s became all out in the “ final solution” .
I would say that being in agreement with the bad actions would share the guilt
In the USA is basically the point, we don’t see the slow creep to being a sinful nation.
As I said the reports on Auschwitz 2 stories 1 on the staff at the camp . The secretaries, cooks, maintenance staff,
Then the report on the personnel who stripped and shoved the humans into gas chambers, then the personnel who drug the corpse out of gas chambers to the crematorium. It struck me that there must be some guilt.
Then to see America disappear POC. It reminded me of the Fugitive Slave Act.
I feel it is part of our requirement from Jesus to speak out.

 

[RamiC]

Not as good at WW II history as my college roommate, but I would say in the 40’s as the Nazi’s became all out in the “ final solution” .
I would say that being in agreement with the bad actions would share the guilt

I would say it worth anyone thinking and praying hard about how the people involved ended up doing what they did. It was a different time and some were blindly following orders, with nothing more in their heads than obeying the instructions from their superiors.

I feel it is part of our requirement from Jesus to speak out.

It might take more than that, but speaking out is a start.

 

[iarwain]

So you don’t see this America following the path of hate and bigotry?

I see hate and bigotry of all types, some of which you probably aren't even considering. But comparing the US deporting illegal immigrants to Germans gassing the Jews is not a realistic analogy. Calling it hyperbole doesn't go far enough.

 

[Kevin throwe]

I see hate and bigotry of all types, some of which you probably aren't even considering. But comparing the US deporting illegal immigrants to Germans gassing the Jews is not a realistic analogy. Calling it hyperbole doesn't go far enough.

Suppression of rights , gathering those we don’t like . Threatening death on those we don’t like not at all like 1932.

 

[Jonnas]

With the anniversary of Auschwitz having just past and the stories of the sins committed by the Germans and seeing America starting down that same path, I cannot help but wonder where the divide between salvation and damnation was and is.

I think there is much exaggeration in your post.

Do you hear in America a group of people to be called as subhuman parasites that are dangerous conspirators against humanity? Is there a call to wanton violence toward such a group of people and their property? when some random guy would seriously injure or even kill someone of this group of people, will he have immunity for his action? Do you see a revisionism of history and of the Bible to purge anything that could be favorable to such a group of people? And is the majority of the media promoting such views as above?

So, I believe there is a much longer way for America with its immigration politic to go the same path as Nazi Germany, as you think! The real danger comes when a nation rejects God and His laws, and put an ideology or a person above everything. The confessing church of Germany was heavily persecuted by Nazi Germany, because they refuse to let anything else have a greater authority than God's Word; yes they refused to grant such an authority to the Fuhrer and his ideology.

The root of the evil of Nazi Germany was actually its claim to be above everything, including God and His Word. The most evil people are the people who don't believe that they have to answer to God for their actions. Many secular nations (including modern Germany) mention a responsibility toward God in their constitution, although it goes against their secular philosophy. They however see that as a necessity to prevent WWII crimes to happen again!

Finally, to know whether or not America is going down the path of Nazi Germany, we need to look at the right indicators: Can christians “lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty” (1 Tim. 2:2). Or is there an ideology that doesn't want to let them live in godliness and honesty as the Bible teach us, but wanta to force its ungodly view on them? Can christians in America peacefully live according to their faith and conscience? Or does an ideology claim a higher authority than their christian faith? Is there an ideology that wants to remove God from constitution, schools, etc? That's the right questions to ask oneself!

 

[Jonnas]

By the way, have you also consider the number of babies murdered by abortion? There is a much greater similarity with Nazi Germany in this, than in the immigration politic of America! It would be no exaggeration to speak of an holocaust. Unborn babies are robbed of their human dignity and called to be no more than clumps of cells, to justify their murdering. But the root cause is the rejection of God and his laws that led to an great increase of promiscuity, and people prefer to commit murder rather to deal with the consequences of their godless actions!

 

[RamiC]

Suppression of rights , gathering those we don’t like . Threatening death on those we don’t like not at all like 1932.

"Those we don't like" - who is disliked and what for?

 

[Kevin throwe]

I see hate and bigotry of all types, some of which you probably aren't even considering. But comparing the US deporting illegal immigrants to Germans gassing the Jews is not a realistic analogy. Calling it hyperbole doesn't go far enough.

It started with deportation, America is on the path

 

[ChubbyCherub]

I sincerely believe people need hobbies because the dramatic sentiments on on this forum are incomprehensible to me.

Deporting illegal immigrants is nowhere near the same thing as what happened in Nazi Germany!

The comparison is insulting to the US and to Germany and the victims of the Holocaust.

What drivel!

 

[RamiC]

It started with deportation, America is on the path

As far as I know every country deports people who have failed at attempting to immigrate, or locks people up because they will not let them in.

1930's Germany relocated existing legal citizens, based on race, and a few other things, some of which were previously legal. Also, opposition to the government of the time was not visible anywhere, there are loud, clear expressions of objection happening in the USA, from your elected representatives right down to the streets. Your President cannot remain in office indefinately can he? After the Reichstag fire, Hitler's position had no expiry date.

 

[Kevin throwe]

I sincerely believe people need hobbies because the dramatic sentiments on on this forum are incomprehensible to me.

Deporting illegal immigrants is nowhere near the same thing as what happened in Nazi Germany!

The comparison is insulting to the US and to Germany and the victims of the Holocaust.

What drivel!

I love my hobby of embroidery. Germany did not start at the “final solution “ thus my concern of America starting down this path. Every action of this administration is opposite the teachings of Jesus.