Grounds for divorce?

[dayknee]

You know.... I have a problem with this from my own background. Basically my first wife accused me of having a similar "emotional affair" with my office mate. Now this female office mate had been a close personal friend of mine for almost 20 years (I'd known my wife half that time) Yes we spent 8 hours a day together (not much say in who I was assigned an office with), yes we talked about a lot of deeply personal things (her relationship problems mostly). But that does not rise to the level of infidelity with my wife. She knew going in to our marriage that I had both male and female friends and being close to them does not limit my ability to also be close to my wife, there is plenty of me to go around.

I find it somewhat disingenuous that women have no problem with guys having close male friends, but they can't have close female friends. (And of course the reverse is also true. Women can have close friends of both sexes also.)

Fortunately my current wife understands the concept that friendship does not equal infidelity.

I think your first wife is correct in her assesment of your situation. She has the right to have ALL of you and owe her to be deeply intimate with her and only her. On all levels. An emotional affair can be just as damaging. I know what you are saying..becuase my husband (whom we have been seperated for the last ten months)
had an emotional affiar over the computer with someone..on a game he played.. He would tell her things that were deeply private. Thats wrong. I want someone that I can share everything with and have that part of him that no one else has..it makes it special and private and very intimate.
But I guess you found yourself another wife. One who will allow you to continue that behavior. I am fine with having friends of the opposite sex..I am definitely ok with that..but there is a line that can be crossed..and it isnt the one where you have sex..it starts with the emotional attachment and bonding first..That is the line that needs to be steared clear of..

 

[Brotherfromanothermother]

She has the right to have ALL of you and owe her to be deeply intimate with her and only her. On all levels. An emotional affair can be just as damaging.

He would tell her things that were deeply private. Thats wrong. I want someone that I can share everything with and have that part of him that no one else has..it makes it special and private and very intimate.

I am fine with having friends of the opposite sex..I am definitely ok with that..but there is a line that can be crossed..and it isnt the one where you have sex..it starts with the emotional attachment and bonding first..That is the line that needs to be steared clear of..

Truth.

 

[AMOG]

With all due respect DK, You are wrong. Simply talking about personal life and personal things is much more shallow then what I have with my wife. That is something normal people do with close friends.

The duplicity comes in when you make a distinction between male and female. Let me ask you this, is it okay for me to have "deeply personal" conversations with a guy? How about a canceler?

My point is, if an office mate who is also a personal friend, comes in and dumps on you, you listen, you help, and you sometimes dump on them. Whether they are male or female MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

 

[AMOG]

Or a counselor even?

 

[dayknee]

AMOG
The difference in having a close personal friendship with a male friend of yours will likely NOT lead to an affair..Am I correct in saying that? Nor would it for a female. There is a reason we should have close bonds with people of the same sex..that is so we do NOT tempt ourselves. The temptation needs to be removed. When you are pouring your heart out with a co worker of the same sex, and say it is about how your wife this or your wife that..you are not giving your wife the opportunity to explain her reasons and you are shutting her out of your relationship.
I am suprised that you would be ok with your wife now talking to a male friend about intimate things in your marriage and her seeking advice on those things..and she wont even talk to you about them..would that bother you?
I guess we just have a huge difference of opinion.
Instead of my husband telling me the things he wanted in our marriage..he sought someone else to ask for advice and they became close until it evolved into more than that and they started cyber sexing and having a very intimate relationship. This is what your behavior can lead to.
I am all for you having women friends and I think it would be wrong for anyone to tell you you shouldnt..What I am saying that you shouldnt do..is have a "close" one where you share intimate things about your married life or about your spouse..that is wrong..

 

[ido]

When I started dating my ex-husband, I had two very close guy friends. I used to do things with just the two of them all the time when I was single. However, once I started dating my ex, I immediately began including him in any social interaction that involved these two friends - out of respect for him and our relationship. Because of this, he trusted me and did not have a problem with me attending a get together with them if he was not available to go with me for some reason.

I understand that sometimes these friendships develop at work. However, if they are indeed purely platonic, then an effort should be made to socialize with spouses outside of work, too. My ex kept me separate from his interactions with his female co-workers. When I did go to his work to visit him, most of the women made no effort to be nice to me - in fact, I can only think of one who went out of her way to talk to me. It really made me wonder what he was saying about me that none of them would talk to me.

This will continue to be a boundary for me in any future relationships. I don't think there is anything wrong with requiring this of a spouse and would be concerned if my spouse didn't feel the same way.

 

[Leanna]

It sounds like he is cheating. Its time to find out. Tell him that you expect him to be accountable for his time, before work and after work and see if he freaks out and accuses you of not trusting him or being ridiculous. Then you pretty much know, he's cheating. People who don't have something to hide have nothing to fear from accountability.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html click all the links on the Left hand side

 

[united4Peace]

As one who's been with her dh for 17 yrs, have almost had my marriage come to an end due to infidelty on my part I have to say Ive found marriage a two way street...communication!!
Ive found that though my dh doesnt share my beliefs he does respect them...very much so...enough to even go to Church with when I attend....
I also respect his belief of being a lapsed Catholic (Atheist).
We talk more...we have no passwords on our PC's and our PC's are in the open where everyone can see what anyone else is doing on them at any given time.
Saying that, we also give each other space...space to be individuals...accepting each other for our differences and not trying to change each other anymore .

You may have to put your foot down on some things...
Trust is a big issue...and he will have to earn it (as did I)...move into a separate room...as I was told my dh had no right to kick me out as it was my home also...but you can move to a separate room in the house and make him do things for himself...cooking, laundry...etc..
Earn the right to be a husband...earn the respect and honesty...he needs to do that...but at the same time let him know that his actions have hurt you and you do Love him and always have...

 

[TexasSky]

If a friendship is deeply hurting someone you say you love, someone you have committed yourself to, and someone you have built a home with, you need to change the friendship.

By refusing to change the friendship, the indiviudal is saying that the relationship with the friend matters more than the relationship with the one they love.

You'll be told you are being too jealous.
You will be told you are manipulative.
You will be told that you are smothering.

The bottom line though is, if you love someone, why would you continue to hurt them just so you can "spend time with a friend?"

 

[TexasSky]

I also think you need to consider the "if it walks like a duck" theory.

Examples from my own life.

When I was young I had a great male friend at work. He was married, I was single. Most of the time what we talked about was how much he adored his wife. She was never threatened by our friendship. When I married, my spouse was jealous of almost everyone, but especially my friend.

I went to my friend, and explained.
Then, my friend and I made a special effort to do things that included my spouse and my friend's spouse.
We were also careful to make sure that we didn't slide into temptation with one another at work.

I never, ever, did anything in a "private" way that would fuel my spouse's concerns. I was always where I said I would be. I was at home during normal times, at work durning normal times. If I DID have to work late, I invited my spouse to stop by the office. I made 100% certain that everything was open and above board.

After my husband's car accident he started doing all the things you say your husband does. I became concerned. I was told I was reading things into everything, I was told I was too suspicious.

I suggested that if we ALL got together, it would ease my concern. He refused.
He started asking me not to come by his office.
His conversations became private.


I knew, in my heart, then.

Later, after the divorce, and after they found medications to help him with the head injuries, he confessed to me.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck --- no one should be angry that you point to a duck. If it really is NOT a duck, they will be more than happy to SHOW you that it isn't, instead of trying to convince you that ducks look different.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I also think you need to consider the "if it walks like a duck" theory.

Examples from my own life.

When I was young I had a great male friend at work. He was married, I was single. Most of the time what we talked about was how much he adored his wife. She was never threatened by our friendship. When I married, my spouse was jealous of almost everyone, but especially my friend.

I went to my friend, and explained.
Then, my friend and I made a special effort to do things that included my spouse and my friend's spouse.
We were also careful to make sure that we didn't slide into temptation with one another at work.

I never, ever, did anything in a "private" way that would fuel my spouse's concerns. I was always where I said I would be. I was at home during normal times, at work durning normal times. If I DID have to work late, I invited my spouse to stop by the office. I made 100% certain that everything was open and above board.

After my husband's car accident he started doing all the things you say your husband does. I became concerned. I was told I was reading things into everything, I was told I was too suspicious.

I suggested that if we ALL got together, it would ease my concern. He refused.
He started asking me not to come by his office.
His conversations became private.


I knew, in my heart, then.

Later, after the divorce, and after they found medications to help him with the head injuries, he confessed to me.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck --- no one should be angry that you point to a duck. If it really is NOT a duck, they will be more than happy to SHOW you that it isn't, instead of trying to convince you that ducks look different.

I honestly don't know what to think...

He's got two unaccounted for vacation days taken out of his paycheck that he tried to blow off like "oh well". I confronted him about it and made him look into it. He said it's an error and he promised to have them fix it. We'll see.

I'm not allowed to go to his office (secure area) but he can take the kids in when he stops by there on his days off. weird, huh? And I've called in to his desk and he's been sitting there with a co-worker and her boyfriend was there...how did that guy get in? hmmm...

I may suggest that he plan a dinner with the family and the woman that he is close with and her spouse...oops...she's divorced/no spouse or boyfriend.

He's got me nearly convinced that it's all in my head and I'M the one who is crazy. He keeps coming up with "logical" excuses for all the weirdness.

Another thing...the household is falling apart...things are breaking, not working, behind schedule. When your house is in order spiritually, your house is in order physically. I can't keep it together alone.

AND he keeps telling me that he doesn't want to get me pregnant (we're not even trying) and doesn't want another baby (I never said I did) so this is completely out of left-field and has me very confused. (He keeps saying he's too tired when approached.)

 

[TexasSky]

I honestly don't know what to think...

He's got two unaccounted for vacation days taken out of his paycheck that he tried to blow off like "oh well". I confronted him about it and made him look into it. He said it's an error and he promised to have them fix it. We'll see.

I'm not allowed to go to his office (secure area) but he can take the kids in when he stops by there on his days off. weird, huh? And I've called in to his desk and he's been sitting there with a co-worker and her boyfriend was there...how did that guy get in? hmmm...

I may suggest that he plan a dinner with the family and the woman that he is close with and her spouse...oops...she's divorced/no spouse or boyfriend.

He's got me nearly convinced that it's all in my head and I'M the one who is crazy. He keeps coming up with "logical" excuses for all the weirdness.

Another thing...the household is falling apart...things are breaking, not working, behind schedule. When your house is in order spiritually, your house is in order physically. I can't keep it together alone.

AND he keeps telling me that he doesn't want to get me pregnant (we're not even trying) and doesn't want another baby (I never said I did) so this is completely out of left-field and has me very confused. (He keeps saying he's too tired when approached.)

Let me ask you this -

Do you love him enough to forgive him if your fears are confirmed?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Let me ask you this -

Do you love him enough to forgive him if your fears are confirmed?

I don't know...honestly.

My dad cheated on my mom multiple times as I was growing up and she never divorced him. I always saw her as weak and had no self-esteem/self-respect/self-worth. To watch her (and us) play 2nd fiddle to his affairs and illegitimate family when we needed him there, to watch him abandon us spiritually, emotionally, and at times physically(he'd spend evenings and nights out/got an apartment for couple of months)....I swore that would never be me.

In the big scheme of things, would I want him to miss out on eternal life because of a sin committed against me, of course not.

On a smaller scale, I could not be his wife (and all that goes with that) anymore. If that means that I don't love him enough to forgive him, then I guess I don't.

Is it possible to forgive someone but not want to be subject to them/around them anymore?

 

[dayknee]

What do you mean by this

In the big scheme of things, would I want him to miss out on eternal life because of a sin committed against me, of course not.

Is he not saved? If he is saved he wouldn't miss out on enternal life due to sin. He is forgiven.
I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

[united4Peace]

I don't know...honestly.

My dad cheated on my mom multiple times as I was growing up and she never divorced him. I always saw her as weak and had no self-esteem/self-respect/self-worth. To watch her (and us) play 2nd fiddle to his affairs and illegitimate family when we needed him there, to watch him abandon us spiritually, emotionally, and at times physically(he'd spend evenings and nights out/got an apartment for couple of months)....I swore that would never be me.

In the big scheme of things, would I want him to miss out on eternal life because of a sin committed against me, of course not.

On a smaller scale, I could not be his wife (and all that goes with that) anymore. If that means that I don't love him enough to forgive him, then I guess I don't.

Is it possible to forgive someone but not want to be subject to them/around them anymore?

God forgives any sin as long as the person repents to God...
Its not up to us to say whether one is forgiven but up to God...
That said...God forgives those who forgives others...therefore if I forgive someone I am forgiven also for my own sins as well...whereas if I dont forgive then God doesnt forgive me...see what I mean?

Yes you can forgive someone but refuse to take their abuse...

 

[TealTuesday]

this is bothers me,everything about the situation! cheating can be in their heart too you know! It is what they are thinking while they are with you and that's still cheating,any way you look at it.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What do you mean by this

In the big scheme of things, would I want him to miss out on eternal life because of a sin committed against me, of course not.

Well, I guess I was thinking...if hypothetically, God said to me, "he committed a sin against you and your marriage and so I'm sending him to hell". I wouldn't want anyone to lose their life because of something that they did to ME.

Is he not saved? If he is saved he wouldn't miss out on enternal life due to sin. He is forgiven.
I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Well, I know that he was raised in a Christian household. I know that he was baptized. There is no evidence that he is born again. He doesn't go to church...too tired from working. He doesn't talk about God. He doesn't read the Bible. He doesn't lead his family in knowing God. He only prays when I say, "let's pray" at mealtime and I am the one who says the prayer even though I always ask him if he wants to say it first.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

this is bothers me,everything about the situation! cheating can be in their heart too you know! It is what they are thinking while they are with you and that's still cheating,any way you look at it.

Yes, I agree. But that's hard to prove. All I have is his behavior to go on which I would guess is evidence of where his heart is.

I have him saying how glad he is that she loves him and that he has two women who love him, outrageously mean comments about my figure, apathy, disdain, comments about how he doesn't want another baby, highly critical, unaccounted-for vacation time, won't take the lead in the household, privately sending phone and email messages, a gift for her about sex and dating, won't make a move in his job without asking her first, and he's ok with the idea of me and kids leaving for 2-3 months to visit family.

He has "reasonable" excuses for most of it..."she's just a friend", "she's not the one you should worry about, there's a lot of other more attractive women at work", "it's just a gag gift", "the vacation time is just a mix-up", "the reason I ask her about my job moves is because she knows the in's and out's and I have FULL CONFIDENCE in her", "you know how I feel about God, I don't have to tell you".

 

[Adamantium]

I do believe that were I in your shoes I'd tell him to prove that he's not an adulterer. I'd list all of the things you've mentioned in this thread, as objectively as possible, and then tell him that if your positions were reversed he would think the same.

I think you should be prepared to take the kids and leave immediately before you confront him, though.

 

[TealTuesday]

Yes, I agree. But that's hard to prove. All I have is his behavior to go on which I would guess is evidence of where his heart is.

I have him saying how glad he is that she loves him and that he has two women who love him, outrageously mean comments about my figure, apathy, disdain, comments about how he doesn't want another baby, highly critical, unaccounted-for vacation time, won't take the lead in the household, privately sending phone and email messages, a gift for her about sex and dating, won't make a move in his job without asking her first, and he's ok with the idea of me and kids leaving for 2-3 months to visit family.

He has "reasonable" excuses for most of it..."she's just a friend", "she's not the one you should worry about, there's a lot of other more attractive women at work", "it's just a gag gift", "the vacation time is just a mix-up", "the reason I ask her about my job moves is because she knows the in's and out's and I have FULL CONFIDENCE in her", "you know how I feel about God, I don't have to tell you".

I wanted to comment back but keep getting disc. Do you know if he "LOVES" you,does it say it a all?