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Graven images?

stumpjumper

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I wouldn't call a statue of Krishna or statues of Christian Saints idols or "graven images".

Idolatry and the commandment against "graven images" means worshiping something else instead of God.

I would look at crosses and crucifixes more as icons...
 
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unkern

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Exodus 20 says do not worship any graven image in HEAVEN above or earth below, in fact God says he showed up on mount horeb in a fire so that they would not make an image of him. Thats also why the alters were not supposed to be cut stones. Crucifixes and crosses are graven images, Some of them were actually used in early mystical practices, and the crucifix was a object of death. If Jesus died today people would be worshiping a needle or an electric chair. The Ten commandments are an object of worship because it is something you read in order to worship.
 
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pgp_protector

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Exodus 20 says do not worship any graven image in HEAVEN above or earth below, in fact God says he showed up on mount horeb in a fire so that they would not make an image of him. Thats also why the alters were not supposed to be cut stones. Crucifixes and crosses are graven images, Some of them were actually used in early mystical practices, and the crucifix was a object of death. If Jesus died today people would be worshiping a needle or an electric chair. The Ten commandments are an object of worship because it is something you read in order to worship.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

So if we're not allowed to maek ANY Likeness of ANY THING.
Wouldn't that include photos / drawings / statues ect ?
 
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christianmomof3

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If you do a bible search on the word image or likeness as is shown in that verse in exodus and look at how the word is used in the Bible - and I believe there are two words - image and likeness - they are only used to refer to a thing that is prayed to.
Therefore, the word in the Bible that is translated as "image" does not mean merely any image of anything the way we use the word to mean today. It only referred to something that was prayed to.
So, statues, photographs etc.. are ok. However, representations of God (and that would include Jesus since He is God)- who is the only One who should be prayed to - would fall under the category of idols so the crucifix would be considered a graven image whereas the 10 commandments would not be.
If people pray to "Saints" or to spiders or anything else and have statues or paintings of them that they bow and pray before, those would also be considered "images" in the Biblical sense.
 
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Sketcher

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Exodus 20 says do not worship any graven image in HEAVEN above or earth below, in fact God says he showed up on mount horeb in a fire so that they would not make an image of him. Thats also why the alters were not supposed to be cut stones. Crucifixes and crosses are graven images, Some of them were actually used in early mystical practices, and the crucifix was a object of death. If Jesus died today people would be worshiping a needle or an electric chair. The Ten commandments are an object of worship because it is something you read in order to worship.
Being as He commissioned the Ark of the Covenant, which had cherubim represented on it (Ex. 25:10-22), I don't think He meant it the way you're claiming. I don't see how a cross would be any worse than one of the monuments God commanded be built in Israel. It's there, it serves the purpose of reminding us of what God has done.
 
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JCFantasy23

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It's just a matter of perception. Some people do find it to be a graven image. To me it's a symbol I can wear that shows the world of my commitment and love with God. I wear a cross with pride, or I used to, need to get another necklace. I feel nice having a cross by my apartment door, feeling like the apartment is almost blessed a bit more by signs of God and my Christian faith. To me graven images are things to bow down to and worship. I only worship God so the cross is not a conflict with me.

Some people collect angels and such to decorate their houses with. Seeing them when they wake up and walk abound can be continuous reminders of faith. To me, seeing a beautiful religious painting or statue, or cross, can be inspiring and beautiful. It makes me feel good about my faith. I love highly decorated churches as well.
 
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unkern

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the reason God came in a fire at mount Horeb is so that we would not try to contain him. Bowing to the cross is no different than bowing to the golden calf. They are both meant to be a sign or symbol of God. So why does God get so angry? In the bible God tells a story about a man that goes out and cuts some wood. When he comes home half of it he makes an image he can bow down to with the other half he makes a fire and cooks his food. As for pictures of Jesus he was actually undesirable, He would most likely be brown skinned, and he would most likely have shorter hair. These are images we make to contain the power of God and make it equal to us or something we can understand.
 
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unkern

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the reason God came in a fire at mount Horeb is so that we would not try to contain him. Bowing to the cross is no different than bowing to the golden calf. They are both meant to be a sign or symbol of God. So why does God get so angry? In the bible God tells a story about a man that goes out and cuts some wood. When he comes home half of it he makes an image he can bow down to with the other half he makes a fire and cooks his food. As for pictures of Jesus he was actually undesirable, He would most likely be brown skinned, and he would most likely have shorter hair. These are images we make to contain the power of God and make it equal to us or something we can understand.
 
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JCFantasy23

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the reason God came in a fire at mount Horeb is so that we would not try to contain him. Bowing to the cross is no different than bowing to the golden calf. They are both meant to be a sign or symbol of God. So why does God get so angry? In the bible God tells a story about a man that goes out and cuts some wood. When he comes home half of it he makes an image he can bow down to with the other half he makes a fire and cooks his food. As for pictures of Jesus he was actually undesirable, He would most likely be brown skinned, and he would most likely have shorter hair. These are images we make to contain the power of God and make it equal to us or something we can understand.

You make good points but I still feel OK on the cross issue. To me bowing down to the golden calf was actually bowing down and worship. I don't worship or bow down to the cross, only like it as a symbol of my faith.
 
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seashale76

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How come crucifixes aren't considered graven images?
Why aren't monuments of the 10 Commandments graven images?

A-Witch

Here's an interesting article on graven images from an Orthodox Christian perspective. We're iconodules.

http://www.antiochian.org/node/16913

Because of the incarnation, Christ can be depicted, being both fully God and fully man. Icons aren't worshiped, but we do venerate what they represent. They are windows into heaven. We also know that there were synagogues that were decorated with frescoes, etc. so there is precedent in Judaism, and most certainly in the early church for iconography.

Idolatry is the worship of images, the worship of gods other than the God of the bible by images, and the worship of animals, people, and objects, none of which is practiced in the Christian Church. We practice douleia but not latreia when it comes to the veneration of icons. I would say that it is an effort of conscious intent. One should always be aware of what they are doing and guard their thoughts accordingly.
 
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seashale76

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You make good points but I still feel OK on the cross issue. To me bowing down to the golden calf was actually bowing down and worship. I don't worship or bow down to the cross, only like it as a symbol of my faith.

The Holy Cross is more than a symbol. Christ defeated death on the cross.


Prophecy of Isaiah 60:11-16:

Therefore your gates shall be open continually;
They shall not be shut day or night,
That men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles,
And their kings in procession.
For the nation and kingdom which will not serve you shall perish,
And those nations shall be utterly ruined.

"The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
The cypress, the pine, and the box tree together,
To beautify the place of My sanctuary;
And I will make the place of My feet glorious.
Also the sons of those who afflicted you
Shall come bowing to you,
And all those who despised you shall fall prostrate at the soles of your feet;
And they shall call you The City of the LORD,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

"Whereas you have been forsaken and hated,
So that no one went through you,
I will make you an eternal excellence,
A joy of many generations.
You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles,
And milk the breast of kings;
You shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.


During the Feast of the Elevation of the Holy Cross and the Sunday of the Holy Cross, we sing this hymn (prostrated) instead of the usual Trisagion:

Before Thy Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify. (Thrice) Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen. And Thy holy Resurrection we glorify. Before Thy Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify.

I Corinthians 15: 54-58:
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

From the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom:

Let no one bewail his poverty,
For the universal Kingdom has been revealed.
Let no one weep for his iniquities,
For pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death,
For the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.

By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered
When it encountered Thee in the lower regions.
It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
To Him be glory and dominion
Unto ages of ages.
Amen.
 
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JCFantasy23

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The Holy Cross is more than a symbol. Christ defeated death on the cross.


Prophecy of Isaiah 60:11-16:

Therefore your gates shall be open continually;
They shall not be shut day or night,
That men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles,
And their kings in procession.
For the nation and kingdom which will not serve you shall perish,
And those nations shall be utterly ruined.

"The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
The cypress, the pine, and the box tree together,
To beautify the place of My sanctuary;
And I will make the place of My feet glorious.
Also the sons of those who afflicted you
Shall come bowing to you,
And all those who despised you shall fall prostrate at the soles of your feet;
And they shall call you The City of the LORD,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

"Whereas you have been forsaken and hated,
So that no one went through you,
I will make you an eternal excellence,
A joy of many generations.
You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles,
And milk the breast of kings;
You shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.


During the Feast of the Elevation of the Holy Cross and the Sunday of the Holy Cross, we sing this hymn (prostrated) instead of the usual Trisagion:

Before Thy Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify. (Thrice) Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen. And Thy holy Resurrection we glorify. Before Thy Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify.

I Corinthians 15: 54-58:
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

From the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom:

Let no one bewail his poverty,
For the universal Kingdom has been revealed.
Let no one weep for his iniquities,
For pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death,
For the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.

By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered
When it encountered Thee in the lower regions.
It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
To Him be glory and dominion
Unto ages of ages.
Amen.


Thanks for your thoughts to my reply. I always viewed wearing crosses or having crosses hanging in my apartment as a symbol of me being a Christian and it makes me feeling closer to God. I have to say I can't really understand what you have said above for the most part, many of it is foreign to me. I still appreciate the thoughtful reply, however.
 
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unkern

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Can you contain an incorruptible God, in a corruptible form created by man? I grew up catholic and I saw the masses bow to statues, lighting candles and incense. Praying to mary and saints. Then I moved to Christian churches and people told me Jesus is no longer on the cross, then I saw them bow to the crosses and cry, some do light incense. We dont even know what kind of cross Jesus died on, many believe it was in the shape of a T. Ive seen christian families with a picture of a handsome white Jesus on the wall. We dont know what Jesus looked like the bible tells us he may have been undesirable, and he most likely had a tan. Heres a funny site you can check out on that: http://mynameisbrandon.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/what-does-jesus-look-like/ These images/symbols try to contain something as big and magnificent as God into something I could burn, break, or corrupt.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Why view a cross as someone trying to contain the image of God into it? God is all encompassing. As for incense and such...I still do not consider this idolatry. Sometimes people get into a meditative state to better pray. Incense or candles can help one relax their mind and focus to better relate to God. My mind is hyperactive and sometimes it helps to calm myself with my surroundings when I want a long, deep discussion about something with the Lord. I would use them as prayer aides and nothing more, placing no other significance on candles or incense other than that they assist in relaxing me to better open myself.
 
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seashale76

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Why view a cross as someone trying to contain the image of God into it? God is all encompassing. As for incense and such...I still do not consider this idolatry. Sometimes people get into a meditative state to better pray. Incense or candles can help one relax their mind and focus to better relate to God. My mind is hyperactive and sometimes it helps to calm myself with my surroundings when I want a long, deep discussion about something with the Lord. I would use them as prayer aides and nothing more, placing no other significance on candles or incense other than that they assist in relaxing me to better open myself.

Not to mention that the use of incense is all over the bible, especially Revelation. It's always been a vital part of Christian worship.

Lord, I call upon Thee, hear me. Hear me, O Lord.
Let my prayer arise in Thy sight as incense.
And let the lifting up of my hands be an evening sacrifice. Hear me, O Lord.
(Psalm 141:1-2).
 
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