Grape Juice Communions

[TheCosmicGospel]

Tcat,

I feel sorry for those who have violated themselves in the past to the point that they cannot drink any alcohol. But I do not see this as enough warrent to demand that the church provide a substitute for what it uses in providing the highest meal of Christ.

Receiving just the bread would not violate his standards or the church's. Why can't intincture also provide a remedy? And if he is that susceptible to alcohol, then wouldn't the smell of alcohol be just as dangerous when he is surrounded by people who have taken wine and are breathing? The smell at the altar would have to be alluring in and of itself.

But I think I can assure you that most communion practices will continue to be iherited by whatever pastor goes there and there will be grape juice available. This is the concession we will make for not making a Pope out of the Confessions.

So please do not get upset at my questions. I am only asking. It is not directive at all.


WWLD,
Cos

 

[filosofer]

In Christ's institution of the Sacrament, He used the unleavened bread of the Passover and wine. We do in fect know it was wine and not plain grape juice since there was no way to preserve grape juice 2000 years ago. It took a Methodist minister named Welch to perfect that. The individual wafers used in communion are baked unleavened bread.

These are the elements Christ used. These are the elements we should use for the Sacrament. When we start questioning such things it leads to a slippery slope that eventually loses the whole purpose and meaning of the Sacrament. If we are free to go outside of Christ's institution, then why not beer and pretzels? We'd see more men in church then.
Or how about scones and cognac?

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Although I find it interesting that you serve grape juice at your congregation and I don't.

I raised the question whether when you do serve grape juice is in fact the Lord's Supper. If it is not, then what are we telling the people? What are we confessing? If the person is receiving the body and blood of Christ, then what are we telling them if we stop doing that using the explanation that: "Christ didn't institute it that way"?

Also, did Christ institute the Lord's Supper with only one element? Is that Biblical? What Scripture passage(s) support such a practice?

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[DaSeminarian]

Help me understand, the wine or juice is just plain wine and juice until it is used in Communion. The bread or wafer is just that until God does His work and makes it so much more.

If that is correct then whether it is wine, grape juice, stale gross cracker or bread it is nothing until God changes it to His means of forgiveness.

Since it is God who does the work why should we get legalistic about it?

This is another topic altogether but if we are going to stick to form why do we sprinkle rather than immerse as Christ was. Again His Means which we are not following?

I would argue that the host should be wheat bread and the cup be pure wine. As DaRev pointed out there was no such thing as grape juice in that day. In receiving the body and blood we must trust that Christ will allow our bodies to receive the elements without harm to us.
The amount we take is hardly fatal to anyone.

 

[TCat]

It is interesting to see the debate about this topic. Personally I have taken wine at times and grape juice at others and feel no conviction about it either way.

I am glad that my church offers Christ's blood in wine and juice form, as well as by various methods of ingestion.

As for my son, he is very young, and right now he is determined to keep his vow before the Lord to not drink alcohol at all, even in communion. Personally I am very proud of his conviction and am glad he chooses the juice.

He usually demands that I take a mint after communion, he hates the smell of the port on my breathe.

 

[TCat]

Luther

Tell that to an alcoholic for whom the smallest amount of wine can lead to a serious derailment of sobriety.

TCat

 

[DaSeminarian]

It is interesting to see the debate about this topic. Personally I have taken wine at times and grape juice at others and feel no conviction about it either way.

I am glad that my church offers Christ's blood in wine and juice form, as well as by various methods of ingestion.

As for my son, he is very young, and right now he is determined to keep his vow before the Lord to not drink alcohol at all, even in communion. Personally I am very proud of his conviction and am glad he chooses the juice.

He usually demands that I take a mint after communion, he hates the smell of the port on my breathe.

It saddens me to think that your son is more concerned with the fact that wine has alcohol than the point of taking the body and blood of Christ as he gives it to us. He did not give a watered down version of wine, but gave the real thing. If communion has become about the content of the element more than the real presence of Christ then perhaps he is taking communion for the wrong reasons and should abstain. I am not demanding, but I am suggesting. I hope that when I am pastor that I can persuade the Elders and laity that we should take none other than what Christ gave at that last supper.

 

[TCat]

Well stated, if communion has become more about the content of the element than the real presence of Christ then maybe a great many should abstain.

Is anyone suggesting that Christ is able to be a part of wine but not grape juice or that those who don't take wine for whatever reason are wasting their time coming to the altar?

 

[TCat]

My son feels he is being led to become a pastor as well.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

filo,

Since our Lord did not have an alcoholic at His table, it is hard to say what He might have done in that case. But the rubric of the AALC does suggest that "if someone can't take the wine, then bread alone is fine."

So Christ did not institute with one element. But neither did He substitute or give alternatives.

I only find this parallel. In Ex. 12, the Jews are given a very long list of prescribed instructions. The Angel of Death will be coming over them. Certainly, there is no one going to insert their own interpretations into the clear stated directions. They are not going to insert substitutes or their own sensitivities into it. "Ed, you have to be circumcised. But I think in this one case, God will understand. My knife is just too dull."

So thinking that the First Passover was a type waiting fulfillment in the great table of our Lord, there is even less reason to interject ourselves and our opinions into how we should follow His Table. It is hardly being legalistic. It is recognizing that here our Lord spoke and bid us to "do likewise".

Or you can sit in the pew and receive forgiveness without the sacrament like the good Baptists do - by hearing and believing the Gospel.

Peace,
Cos

 

[DaRev]

Although I find it interesting that you serve grape juice at your congregation and I don't.

Good for you. (It should be noted that it is only given to a mother and daughter and not simply availabe as "another option.")

I raised the question whether when you do serve grape juice is in fact the Lord's Supper. If it is not, then what are we telling the people? What are we confessing? If the person is receiving the body and blood of Christ, then what are we telling them if we stop doing that using the explanation that: "Christ didn't institute it that way"?

I wish it was that easy, to simply tell this family that what the previous pastor taught them was wrong. You certainly should know that it doesn't work that way.

Is Christ's blood truly present in the wine in the Sacrament? Yes, in His institution of the Sacrament He used wine and told us that it is His blood.
Is Christ's blood truly present in any other element, including grape juice? I honestly do not know the answer to that question. Christ did not give His disciples any other element and say "This is My blood." I can only go by His words in His institution.

Also, did Christ institute the Lord's Supper with only one element? Is that Biblical? What Scripture passage(s) support such a practice?

Are you asking me this question??

 

[DaRev]

My son feels he is being led to become a pastor as well.

That's wonderful! When he gets to seminary he will learn a great deal.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

This is a great discussion and bringing forth many merits.

One thing it shows us is that pastors work in many gray areas in ministry. Nothing is black and white and calls for pastoral judgments and many prayers.

"Lord, have mercy upon me, for I am a poor miserable sinner. Forgive me for what I have done and left undone. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Amen"

Peace,
Cos

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Frank Hays, President of ALTS, gave a paper in the AALC-LCMS discussions, March 06, called, "Responsible Administration of Communion".

Here is an excerpt that I found interesting.

"Nevertheless, we do not require everyone to partake of both kinds. If someone has a weak conscience, then we do not insist they drink wine (I Cor 10: 31-32). Likewise, if someone is analcoholic, or is allergic to wine, we do not insist they drink of it. But we do not provide them
grape juice (that is, grape juice that has been treated to prevent fermentation,) for our Lord instituted bread and wine, and does not give us leave to substitute our own false elements."

"Grape juice is not a valid part of the sacrament of the altar. Rather than provide a false sacrament, it would be better to serve the supper in only one kind. But as our Lord requires both bread and wine, we do well to follow his command without substituting our wisdom for His, and without providing substitute elements which are no part of this supper, thereby showing contempt for His body and blood and drinking judgment upon ourselves."

Peace,
Cos​

 

[DogMom]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Well, the wafer we use (in all the churches where I have served as elder, then as pastor) is still not much like most unleavened bread that I have eaten.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

What we have in our church tastes pretty much like matzoh bread. <shrug> Both are pretty bland and tasteless, IMO. I guess it depends on your own experiences.