grafted in...

[cyberlizard]

the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....


What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Steve

 

[PROPHECYKID]

the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....


What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Steve

It means we are partakers and heirs of the covenant made with Abraham. We share in the new covenant made with Israel. People tend to think that the new covenant was made with gentiles but that is incorrect. It was made with the house of Israel. Its means that we are God's chosen people. Not the physical Israel nation but the spiritual Israel nation.

 

[heymikey80]

Something like this:

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Eph 2

​

 

[MamaZ]

We were grafted in to the true Vine. Not the true nation.

 

[heymikey80]

We were grafted in to the true Vine. Not the true nation.

I'd agree that there's a nation, a Kingdom that God intended that's not the same as the nation of Israel/Judah that resulted from God's redemption.

Not sure I'd say that's not "the true nation" though. Paul points to our unifying with the commonwealth of Israel and the people and Kingdom of God, and "the Israel of God", but it's clearly not a nationalistic flocking to Judea.

 

[Terral]

Hi cyberlizard:

the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el.... What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms. Steve

Scripture says no such thing! The notion that the believers in ‘our gospel’ (#2 here) are grafted into unbelieving Israel is ridiculous and part of a regularly told “MYTH” with no basis in reality whatsoever. Scripture says,

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the “Rich Root” of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the Root supports you.” Romans 11:17-18.

The believers in ‘our gospel’ are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) to be “crucified with Christ” (Gal. 2:20) to be “raised up with Christ” (Col. 3:1-4) to be seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) having NOTHING whatsoever to do with Israel of the flesh. Zip, zero, nada, NOTHING. Paul continually speaks of “Israel” in the third person as a completely separate ‘dispensation’ under God being made “jealous” by the salvation that has gone to THE GENTILES.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, DID NOT arrive at that law. Why? Because they did NOT pursue it BY FAITH, but as though it were BY WORKS. They stumbled over the stumbling stone . . .”. Romans 9:30-32.

“What then? What Israel is seeking, it HAS NOT obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it [Peter, John, James, etc.], and the rest [chief priests, scribes, lawyers, Pharisees, hypocrites, etc.] were hardened; just as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see NOT and ears to hear NOT, down to this very day." And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block and a retribution to them. Let their eyes be darkened to see NOT, and bend their backs forever.” I say then, they [Israel] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.” Romans 11:7-11.

Anyone grafting the believers in ‘our gospel’ back into Israel of the flesh has no idea of what they are even talking about. Israel of the flesh is described in Romans 9:1-5, while ‘we’ (Body of Christ = Church #2) are described as the children OF PROMISE named after Isaac (Romans 9:6-8). Israel suffers under the blindness (Rom. 11:25) that does not even allow them to know enough to be ‘jealous’ (Deut 32:21) today, but they will know exactly what that means throughout all the ages to come (Eph. 2:7); when they appear before ‘us’ (Body of Christ) judging the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3). Israel will work and work and works for all the ages to come in order to obtain the very things that God has already given ‘us’ (Body of Christ) for free. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[cyberlizard]

Hi cyberlizard: Scripture says no such thing! The notion that the believers in ‘our gospel’ (#2 here) are grafted into unbelieving Israel is ridiculous and part of a regularly told “MYTH” with no basis in reality whatsoever.

with all due respect I never claimed that believers were grafted into 'unbelieving isra'el' at all in fact Paul clarly highlights the fact that natural (unbelieving) branches have been broken off to make room for us.....

so for you personally, what does it mean to you to be grafted in...... what benefit does it bring (if any).


Steve

 

[Terral]

Hi Cyberlizard:

with all due respect I never claimed that believers were grafted into 'unbelieving isra'el' at all in fact Paul clarly highlights the fact that natural (unbelieving) branches have been broken off to make room for us.....

so for you personally, what does it mean to you to be grafted in...... what benefit does it bring (if any).

Let’s run back to the Opening Post to see what you said:

grafted in...

the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....

What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Again, we are NOT grafted into unbelieving Israel, but into the ‘Rich Root’ (Rom 11:17), which is being “baptized into Christ” (Gal. 3:27) Himself. The ONLY Israel on earth is represented by the sons of Israel referred to in the third-person throughout the Pauline Epistles as a completely separate ‘dispensation’ under God. If you want to make some kind of case for a ‘believing Israel’ (no such thing exists in Scripture), then please do so. The ‘grafted in’ statement from Romans 11:19 is taken from a “You will say . . .” declaration by the Apostle Paul to which we see the reply:

“Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.” Romans 11:20-21.

Remember that ‘our’ citizenship is IN HEAVEN (Phil. 3:20) and that Israel’s inheritance is IN THE EARTH (Eze. 37:11-12). Peter, John and James obtained a ‘heavenly’ inheritance (1Peter 1:4) as members of the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” (Church #1), which Paul explains in Romans 11:7. However, everyone called to God via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1) must be joined to Christ as the “Marriage Supper Of The Lamb” (Rev. 19:5-10) only AFTER performing a myriad of WORKS, WORKS and more WORKS (James 2:20-24). Therefore, the ‘positions’ we are talking about in the BODY of Christ, seated right this moment IN the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6), are ONLY made available to ‘Israel of the flesh’ throughout the ‘ages to come’ (from Eph. 2:7). It is NOT like Israel of the flesh ever occupied those positions of heavenly authority to be ‘broken off’ by their unbelief, but ‘we’ (Body of Christ) are obtaining this ‘eternal life’ as a free gift (Rom. 6:23) and obtaining “the inheritance of the saints IN LIGHT” (Col. 1:12) and by God’s grace through faith APART from works (Eph. 2:8-10) currently unavailable to Israel or anyone else by WORKS.

Paul’s ‘grafted into Christ Himself’ message is given in direct context to Israel of the flesh being the sole recipients of “the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the Temple services and the promises” (Romans 9:4), which means “Prophecy” (not the Mystery) would eventually find the “Body of Christ” itself becoming a Jewish Dominant Heavenly Body under Jesus Christ as their “Head” (like for us = Eph. 1:22, 5:23, Col. 1:18). Paul is describing the righteous branch (Israel = water witness servant) of “Prophecy” (Romans 9:1-5) to then contrast that with the “children of Promise” named after Isaac (blood witness = ruler). Romans 9:6-8. Therefore, when Paul teaches Gentile benefactors of Israel’s own ‘transgression’ (Rom. 11:11) that wild olive branches have taken the place of the natural branches, then he is pointing directly into HEAVEN and specifically into “His Heavenly Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) and directly into Christ Himself (Gal. 3:27) where ‘our’ inheritance places us IN the Lamb apart from any Marriage Supper connected of the destinies of Peter, John, James, Cornelius and everyone called to God via the “Gospel of the Kingdom.” Nobody in the Four Gospels had any opportunity to be seated IN the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus to ‘then’ be ‘broken off’ from Christ as the Rich Root.

The most difficult part of Paul’s “Rich Root” teaching (Rom 11) comes from a misunderstanding of these few verses:

“Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also [unbelieving Israel], if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Romans 11:22-23.

Some people misuse these verses to teach that our salvation is conditional, as if we no longer have lives hidden with Christ IN God (Col. 3:1-3). The difference is that Paul is talking about “Israel versus Gentiles” (Rom. 9-11), as two completely separate ‘dispensations’ under God, where this salvation is sent to the Gentiles in order to make Israel jealous! Romans 10:19, 11:11. This Romans Epistle was written ‘before’ the close of Acts, during a period ‘before’ the revelation of “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26). Paul’s warning about being ‘cut off’ is made “to the Gentiles” replacing their ‘faith’ (faith to faith = Rom. 1:16-17) with conceit (Rom. 11:20) for Israel of the flesh in the same way Israel looked down upon Gentiles as mere dogs (Matt 15:24-26). Our Lord Jesus Christ is continuing to give Paul these “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor 12:1) and his warnings ‘to you who are Gentiles’ (Rom. 11:13) is that you never make the same ‘faithless’ mistake as their “Israel” counterparts (Rom. 9:30-32) thinking these things are obtained BY WORKS. In ‘that case,’ their ‘gospel message’ would include the same WORKS and the assembly would be ‘cut off’ by preaching a false gospel, as the “faith of Jesus” (Rom. 3:26) comes ONLY by “hearing the word concerning Christ” (Rom. 10:17), which is “the gospel” (Rom. 1:16-17) itself. Therefore, it is not that individual members become conceited to ‘then’ become ‘cut off’ from Christ (the Rich Root), but Paul is warning that the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) program itself and “this Mystery among THE GENTILES” could ‘at that time’ be changed and turned back over to Israel of the flesh ‘IF’ the Gentiles (as a dispensation) happened to disqualify themselves from the race. We ‘now’ know this did not happen from Paul’s teachings in the Prison Epistles (Eph, Phil, Col) written only ‘after’ the close of Acts (in about 61 AD) and ‘after’ Paul turned his full attention to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28).

The Jews believing our gospel ‘and’ the Gentiles believing our gospel are both members of the same “one body” (Eph. 4:4-6), which is “Christ’s Body” (1Cor. 12:27, Col. 1:24) commonly known as the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12). There is no such thing as a Jew or Greek (Gentile), or even male or female, “IN” Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28), so obviously ‘we’ (believers in our gospel) are not baptized into Israel of the flesh with an inheritance in this earth.

In Christ Jesus (not Israel),

Terral

 

[DominusIesus]

the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....

It means that we have been placed into the covenant people of God. This then brings with it the responsibility to live a holy life. Ultimately the true Israel is Christ and we are united with him in baptism by the work of the Spirit.

 

[DominusIesus]

In Christ Jesus (not Israel)

Jesus Christ is Israel. The narrative of the Gospels presents Jesus as the true Israel.

Matthew 2:13-15 "Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him." And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Later we find Jesus temptation in the wilderness of 40 days. He is faced with the same series of temptations that Israel faced when they were in the wilderness.

The narrative is presenting Jesus as the faithful Israel.

 

[DominusIesus]

Have a listen to these by N. T. Wright:

God's Gospel, God's Son, God's Righteousness (30.1MB MP3)
New Exodus, New Creation, New Humanity (27.8MB MP3)
'All Israel' and the Church's Task (29.9MB MP3)

 

[pehkay]

By faith, we are grafted into Christ.

We are one with Christ (1 Cor 6:17). All the riches of Christ is available for us to enjoy. What He went through, His incarnation, His perfect human living, His death, His resurrection, His ascension, etc are available for us to experience and partake.

 

[dan p]

I agree with Terral on this .

1) We are baptized into the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12:13 , NOT grafted into an olive tree.

2) In v15 we see the setting a side of Israel

3) v 20 says why the ( Israel ) branches were broken off, because of unbelief and God is NOT dealing directly with Israel today.

4) v21 is meant to be believed by those who feel that you can lose your salvation. I don't.

5) v21 says, For if God spared NOT the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare NOT thee. It looks like you can BE cut out , and lose your salvation

6) I believe that this passage relates the believeing Gentiles as being in the Millennium and NOT in the Body of Christ

7) This passage is involved with the future restoration of Israel

 

[wayseer]

You are all missing what Paul is saying.

Paul is developing a theology that began in Thess 1, refined in Galatians and further developed in Romans.

His thesis is that the Gentiles are grafted into God's Kingdom through their faith in Jesus and Jesus' death was the sacrifice that Abraham did not have to make. Therefore the Gentiles are linked to the father of Israel, through faith. Paul does not claim that Israel had lost is position nor been replaced by the Gentiles. Paul was proud of his Jewish heritage and while the Gentiles enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in Jesus, the Jews still enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in the Torah or Law.

Replacement theology is anti-Semitic and not something Paul would have supported.

 

[cyberlizard]

Replacement theology is anti-Semitic and not something Paul would have supported.

i would agree whole heartedly.... the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Steve

 

[heymikey80]

Replacement theology is anti-Semitic and not something Paul would have supported.

What specifically is Replacement theology in your view, though?

I'd agree that the Gentiles do not replace the Israel God intended. But I'd disagree that the Israel God intended was the Judea in First Century Rome.

Paul is developing a theology that began in Thess 1, refined in Galatians and further developed in Romans.

His thesis is that the Gentiles are grafted into God's Kingdom through their faith in Jesus and Jesus' death was the sacrifice that Abraham did not have to make. Therefore the Gentiles are linked to the father of Israel, through faith.

A refinement here that Paul states in among these letters: Gentiles are sons of Abraham through relying on Jesus for their salvation.

Paul does not claim that Israel had lost is position nor been replaced by the Gentiles.

Yet Paul claims that those chosen by God are Israel, and not the entire ethnic heritage of Israel, nor exclusively a subset of the ethnic heritage of Israel. Romans 9.

Paul was proud of his Jewish heritage and while the Gentiles enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in Jesus, the Jews still enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in the Torah or Law.

Yes, Paul knew that believers in national Israel were the first part of God's elect heritage of Israel. He also knew that God's gift and calling are irrevocable. But Paul also knew of the faithlessness of the Jewish people of this time, and knew that the relationship was broken once faith in Jesus was gone. Romans 11 speaks of unbelief and being cut off for it; for stumbling; and yet not to the point of falling. Paul pointed to himself as a believer chosen from the Jewish nation. The ethnicity had not been neglected. And Paul said in the future they would cash-out their status of "beloved because of the fathers."

 

[willowtrees]

You are all missing what Paul is saying.

Paul is developing a theology that began in Thess 1, refined in Galatians and further developed in Romans.

His thesis is that the Gentiles are grafted into God's Kingdom through their faith in Jesus and Jesus' death was the sacrifice that Abraham did not have to make. Therefore the Gentiles are linked to the father of Israel, through faith. Paul does not claim that Israel had lost is position nor been replaced by the Gentiles. Paul was proud of his Jewish heritage and while the Gentiles enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in Jesus, the Jews still enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in the Torah or Law.

Replacement theology is anti-Semitic and not something Paul would have supported.

I see us being grafted in as wayseer has posted.

We, gentiles, have the opportunity, by faith, to be grafted into the root. We are now able to be branches just as Jews are the natural branches.

 

[the particular baptist]

You are all missing what Paul is saying.

Paul is developing a theology that began in Thess 1, refined in Galatians and further developed in Romans.

His thesis is that the Gentiles are grafted into God's Kingdom through their faith in Jesus and Jesus' death was the sacrifice that Abraham did not have to make. Therefore the Gentiles are linked to the father of Israel, through faith. Paul does not claim that Israel had lost is position nor been replaced by the Gentiles. Paul was proud of his Jewish heritage and while the Gentiles enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in Jesus, the Jews still enjoyed their relationship with God through their faith in the Torah or Law. Replacement theology is anti-Semitic and not something Paul would have supported.

Its expansion theology.

 

[Super Kal]

edit

 

[willowtrees]

we're not grafted into the vine.
we are grafted into the root.

the root is Christ

Of course we are Kal, I don't know why I put vine. I should re-read my posts more often after I post them.
Good catch.


ETA ...I will fix edit my original post.