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Still there is no difference between first and second causes.
Of course there is! What say you about this:
God created Satan > Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven > Satan convinced Eve to sin > Eve convinced Adam to sin > etc...
This is a simplistic overview. But by your declaration that there is no difference between first and second causes, would you "blame" God for causing Adam to sin considering this chain of events?
If there is a second cause that is outside of God's control then God is not responsible for all things.
You imply by your statement that Satan's actions were outside of God's control. If that is true then the first sentence of chapter 3 of the Westminster confession is false.
But this disagrees with you link to the Westminster Confession.If you can't understand the difference between making something happen and allowing it to happen, then I can't help you. God is not arbitrary. Just because God foreordains something to come to pass doesn't make Him the author of it.
No. I do not imply that. You assume that implication because your thoughts are clouded with faulty presuppositions.
You're still calling apples oranges. God is sovereign over all things. But now we have officially entered into broken-record territory. I'm not interested in getting sucked into a circular argument with you.
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Come back after you read this and we'll talk some more: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm
What answer? You assert that you provided some answer and that I'm just to stupid understand. Your tactic is intellectually dishonest. Your "answer" as a link to a web site. Very sad attempt to hide your inability to provide a reasoned answer.You don't understand the answer. I'm sorry for that but what more can I do?
Was Pharaoh's persecution of Israel an second cause outside of God's control or was God directly using Pharaoh to show Israel His glory?
If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness, it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun. . . . sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence. . . .
God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.
I tried. The whole thing falls apart in the firs sentence of chapter 3. If you'll allow me to paraphrase, it says something like this, God has ordained everything that happens except for acts of evil. The two clauses contradict each other. If God has ordained everything then He had to ordain evil acts as well. If God did not ordain evil acts then He did not ordain everything. I am an engineer and I cannot accept that contradiction.
Because the Word is preached out of the Bible. When the Word would seem to contradict itself we turn to the rest of the Bible to clarify the contradiction.
We have no need for a creed or catechism to help us understand what the Bible says. That is why God gave us the Bible - to teach us His ways.
I would never accept a creed or catechism or confession as binding in any way. Martin Luther looked at he creeds, catechisms and confesions of the Catholic church and started the Protestant movement. His main idea was to return the church he loved back to the teachings of Bible. Man made interpretations of the Bible may have good aspects. As soon as those interpretations take on the weight of dogma then Satan has won another church away from God.
I'm not asking for all the answers, just one.No one here is arguing that we have all the answers
And this makes you responsible how? You are a secretary taking dictation. There is nothing on your part that is either original or unscripted.This is an inaccurate paraphrase. A better (though for certain not perfect) would be to say that God ordains everything to come to pass, including sin and evil, however, God is not guilty of sin.
There is a distinction between and direct cause or author and a ultimate cause. God being the sovereign creator over all, is the ultimate cause of all things, but He is not the direct cause of everything.
For example, I am the direct cause or author of this response. I am the one typing the words and coming up with the sentences and paragraphs. It is not God typing out these words. God is the ultimate cause. He is the one that sovereignly decreed that I should respond at this very moment. He even decreed the words I would use. Throughout my life God has set me up for this moment to type these words. It must be remembered though, that I am the one typing out these words and not God.
And which of the many creed is correct One?Beoga said:A creed is an explanation based in Scripture (or at least it should be). Like preachers, there are some good ones and there are some bad ones. The Scriptures are the judge of this. This is why the protestant doctrine was SolA Scriptura, not SolO Scriptura. Solo Scriptura claims no need for those things God has ordained to help us in understanding the truths He has revealed in Scripture. Sola Scriptura says that the Scriptures are the final authority, judging all things. However, this does not leave room for someone to be isolated by themselves. By your reasoning, we should throw out any piece in written form that attempts to explain truths revealed in Scripture be all we need is our bibles and every Christian has equal capability at accessing what is revealed in Scripture.
I agree. God gave us each other and raised some of us to teachers. Remember what Paul said about following this teacher or that?Beoga said:We have no need for books or sermons to understand what the Bible says. We have no need to fellowship with other believers to discuss what the Bible reveals. We have no need to be a Timothy to all of the Pauls that have come before us. God gave us the Bible and He has left us to ourselves, without the aid of others.
This is simply nonsense.
What do you think the Bible is?Beoga said:Then we have no binding truth.
And which creed is the true creed? Here is a listBeoga said:A creed is an expression and a categorization of the truths revealed in Scripture. As someone has already pointed out, everyone has a creed, even if it was written in an organized manner 400 years ago.
I am not their judge. If I knew that they did not believe then I would advise them not to partake.Beoga said:Tell, would you allow someone to partake in the Lord's Table if they denied the deity of Christ?
NoBeoga said:If someone affirmed pantheism, would they be allowed to be in leadership in your church congregation?
Yes, our church has a statement of faith. When we search for a Pastor we look for somebody who has a heart for God, not somebody who agrees with every point in the churches statement of faith. We put Jesus first, not what we think Jesus would have us believe.Beoga said:Or do you hold people to a certain standard of doctrinal beliefs in order to partake of these special roles in your church? If so, how do you determine this standard and relay it to people?
And this makes you responsible how? You are a secretary taking dictation. There is nothing on your part that is either original or unscripted.
And which of the many creed is correct One?
I agree. God gave us each other and raised some of us to teachers.
Remember what Paul said about following this teacher or that?
What do you think the Bible is? And which creed is the true creed? Here is a list
I am not their judge. If I knew that they did not believe then I would advise them not to partake.
Yes, our church has a statement of faith. When we search for a Pastor we look for somebody who has a heart for God, not somebody who agrees with every point in the churches statement of faith. We put Jesus first, not what we think Jesus would have us believe.
Ah. So if you consent to something someone else says, then you're not responsible? If your parents conditioned you to do it, if events conspired to where you feel a certain way, then it's perfectly legitimate to act on that feeling? But you made the wrong leap: "You're just a secretary taking dictation." There is a difference here, Boxmaker. You are involved. You're not just a secretary taking dictation. But that doesn't mean you have to take an initiative totally independent of God.And this makes you responsible how? You are a secretary taking dictation. There is nothing on your part that is either original or unscripted.
I have presented several arguments regarding a contradiction I see in the Westminster. The responses I have seen are either I'm to dense to see the difference or just a link back to the Westminster.
How do you resolve, in your own mind, this contradiction?
That is not what you said. You Said:I am responsible for two reasons:
1. Knowledge/thinking is involved.
2. I am responsible because I am accountable for what I say or do. That is, I must give an account to someone (God) for what I say.
Beoga said:For example, I am the direct cause or author of this response. I am the one typing the words and coming up with the sentences and paragraphs. It is not God typing out these words. God is the ultimate cause. He is the one that sovereignly decreed that I should respond at this very moment. He even decreed the words I would use. Throughout my life God has set me up for this moment to type these words. It must be remembered though, that I am the one typing out these words and not God.
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