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FaithPrevails

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I've outlined what I think addressing the sin should look like in other threads and even briefly in this thread. It does involve having the other spouse speak up about how the sin makes them feel and what their boundaries are. I don't see how that is being wishy washy about confronting the sinner. But, there is a way to do it and succeed and a way to do it and fail.

JMHO
 
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Created2Write

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What I mean is that getting the person sinning to face the sin shouldn't include going into a counseling session and having it turn into a 2-against-1 scenario. It is a rare person who would respond favorably.

So, all that is accomplished is that the person sinning now feels ganged up on and is most likely angry and defensive. Personal and spiritual growth isn't typically borne out of anger and defensiveness.

I definitely agree with this. 100%.
 
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Created2Write

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I've outlined what I think addressing the sin should look like in other threads and even briefly in this thread. It does involve having the other spouse speak up about how the sin makes them feel and what their boundaries are. I don't see how that is being wishy washy about confronting the sinner. But, there is a way to do it and succeed and a way to do it and fail.

JMHO

I agree with this as well, and with what you've said about how the approach should be in pointing out the sin and explaining how it makes the other spouse feel.
 
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mkgal1

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What I mean is that getting the person sinning to face the sin shouldn't include going into a counseling session and having it turn into a 2-against-1 scenario. It is a rare person who would respond favorably.

So, all that is accomplished is that the person sinning now feels ganged up on and is most likely angry and defensive. Personal and spiritual growth isn't typically borne out of anger and defensiveness.
The purpose isn't to get someone to "respond favorably" is is to lead them to repentance.

The Bible says something different about the 2 against 1 scenario......the Bible says,

If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

The trouble is...most churches will not follow through on this. I am not implying this should be a case of sitting the "sinner" down with the bright light cast in his face and he is "told" what he is doing "wrong". It should be done in the fashion of "loving" the sinner...yet "hating" the sin. I just think that has gotten turned into something else.......wimpiness in the face of sin. A typical intervention is a good example of a loving way to handle sin...IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuwDqDaXjM0
 
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FaithPrevails

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Repenting = responding favorably. Doesn't it?? :scratch:

To define the scripture you shared, I would say that means the spouse should show the offending spouse the sin. If s/he doesn't listen, then go to a counselor and work it out there.

I don't think most issues require an intervention unless the person is doing serious harm to themselves or others.
 
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Conservativation

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What I mean is that getting the person sinning to face the sin shouldn't include going into a counseling session and having it turn into a 2-against-1 scenario. It is a rare person who would respond favorably.

So, all that is accomplished is that the person sinning now feels ganged up on and is most likely angry and defensive. Personal and spiritual growth isn't typically borne out of anger and defensiveness.

I agree

And great is the counselor who dispells that expectation right up front, saying if either of you is here to get me to join you berating the other, you are at the wrong place
 
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mkgal1

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Repenting = responding favorably. Doesn't it?? :scratch:

To define the scripture you shared, I would say that means the spouse should show the offending spouse the sin. If s/he doesn't listen, then go to a counselor and work it out there.

I don't think most issues require an intervention unless the person is doing serious harm to themselves or others.
Yes, it does. But, since you said "it is a rare person who responds favorably" when you were talking about being "ganged up" on....I took it to mean you meant something else besides repentance.

IF someone is doing something continually, that is "killing their marriage" and isn't responding to the words of their spouse....THAT is when a 3rd party is needed. I don't mean an intervention, in the typical sense, is what is needed. I used that as an example, because I feel the intent is in the right place in interventions. You can see the love for the person...and the hate of what is destroying them.
 
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Conservativation

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The day people start doing interventions on spouses, that are not about addictions or abuse mainly, is the day we should board up the churches and figure it all out again before we even bother to open them again

The problem IS the nebulous nature and personal stake the spouse has in it. It is a hammer of vengeance not a call to repentance, despite the best intentions. Imagine a group of people coming in saying "Hey, you are not loving your wife right".....goodness, cheating? porn? all that sure....but the pandora box is calling a siren song here
 
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FaithPrevails

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Yes, it does. But, since you said "it is a rare person who responds favorably" when you were talking about being "ganged up" on....I took it to mean you meant something else besides repentance.

IF someone is doing something continually, that is "killing their marriage" and isn't responding to the words of their spouse....THAT is when a 3rd party is needed. I don't mean an intervention, in the typical sense, is what is needed. I used that as an example, because I feel the intent is in the right place in interventions. You can see the love for the person...and the hate of what is destroying them.

I totally agree. I meant that they would not respond favorably to being ganged up on...not that they would not repent if approached the right way. Sorry if I caused confusion.
 
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FaithPrevails

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Not saying "interventions" need to be done on spouses. If you are going to make my words into that, you can stop posting in this thread, Cons.

I thought that is what you meant, too - but understand more clearly now since you clarified. :)
 
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mkgal1

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I totally agree. I meant that they would not respond favorably to being ganged up on...not that they would not repent if approached the right way. Sorry if I caused confusion.
A person that is defensive with their spouse, most likely WILL be defensive in counseling...and WILL see it as being "ganged up on"......even if that isn't the intent (like in the video of Allison's intervention). The counselor or therapist...IMO...has to be attuned to identifying what the MAIN sin is...the root cause....in order for his/her words to be effective. But, it cannot be a wimpy approach, which is the usual case. The repentance...most likely....will not be immediate. The immediate responsive will, most likely be storming off....slamming doors...yelling...and never coming back to the counselor. That isn't such a bad thing....as it may be the beginning of repentance.
 
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Conservativation

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Not saying "interventions" need to be done on spouses. If you are going to make my words into that, you can stop posting in this thread, Cons.

sorry, it was quite a reasonable assumption on my part, I stand corrected.
I didnt realize here in the married area we were discussing holding friends and extended family to account on sin. my bad
 
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mkgal1

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sorry, it was quite a reasonable assumption on my part, I stand corrected.
I didnt realize here in the married area we were discussing holding friends and extended family to account on sin. my bad
Cons...I am pretty sure you know JUST what I am talking about.....that you are not confused at all. You can kindly find another thread to post in or begin your own if you have more to say on this topic, but I don't want you posting more here--in this thread. Thank you.
 
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mkgal1

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Bored made a comment the other day, that most "troubled marriages" are because of some unrepentant betrayal on the part of at least one spouse.

I thought that was a great point...and I agree.

Betrayal is defined as:

The breaking or violation of a presumptive social contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals.

Treachery: an act of deliberate betrayal
 
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FaithPrevails

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A person that is defensive with their spouse, most likely WILL be defensive in counseling...and WILL see it as being "ganged up on"......even if that isn't the intent (like in the video of Allison's intervention). The counselor or therapist...IMO...has to be attuned to identifying what the MAIN sin is...the root cause....in order for his/her words to be effective. But, it cannot be a wimpy approach, which is the usual case. The repentance...most likely....will not be immediate. The immediate responsive will, most likely be storming off....slamming doors...yelling...and never coming back to the counselor. That isn't such a bad thing....as it may be the beginning of repentance.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree with the bolded more. :sorry: How does one get from what you described to repentance? I am curious what that looks like to you.

I wonder also, what a "wimpy" approach means and what the approach should look like in your mind. Can you give me examples of each?

I'm talking about specific to a married couple addressing a spouse's sin, not in general or with regards to intervention.
 
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mkgal1

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That is in the article...but, I will quote it:

The "wimpy" approach is this:

A married couple came in to see me for the first time: mid-thirties, two kids, Christians, church members. I'll call them Bob and Susie. Susie, in tears, told me Bob had had an affair. It lasted three months, and she had just found out about it one month ago.

In that one month, they had sought advice from their pastor, a Christian therapist, several best-selling Christian books, and some close friends. They got the same four pieces of advice from every one of these Christian sources, and all the advice was directed at Susie.


Susie was told Bob's affair was partly her fault.
She wasn't meeting all of Bob's needs. Bob wasn't happy at home. Men don't have affairs, she was told, unless the wife isn't doing her job.

Susie was told she needed to win Bob back.
She'd lost him and now it was her responsibility to get him back. She needed to immediately pursue him. She needed to lose weight, cook more and better meals, clean the house better, and offer him plenty of passionate, exciting sex.

Susie was told to forgive Bob quickly and move on from the affair.
Don't bring up the details. Don't ask questions. Don't vent your emotions. Don't be sad and, above all, don't be mad. Just be glad he's willing to stay with you.

Susie was told it was a marriage problem.
The affair was only a symptom of a sick marriage. So, don't focus on the affair but focus on improving the marriage. Work on communication, meeting needs and doing the love languages.

Does this advice sound familiar? I'll bet it does. This is far and away the most popular Christian approach to adultery. It's the advice given whether it is the husband or wife who has committed adultery.

It is the advice most pastors give. It is the advice most Christian therapists give. It is the advice most best-selling Christian authors give.

It really is up to the individual IF they even get to repentance, but the main thing is that the counselor/therapist has done their job.....they have called the sin, just what it is..."sin".

Dr. Clarke's approach is this (there is more laid out in the article)

Whatever the sin, I zero in on the sinner and make his sin the focus during the first phase of treatment. He'll repent and change first. He'll confess exactly what he's done and work to fix his problem. He'll help his partner heal from what he's done to her. He'll become the husband God wants him to be.

Later, the other spouse's issues will be addressed. Later, the marital issues will be addressed.

Biblically, my approach makes sense. Clinically, it works well. The sinning spouse will go first. Then, the marriage. You don't have to do a delicate balancing act. It's neat, it's clean, and it's focused.
*Male pronouns and the word "husband" were used as the above is related to the scenerio of Susie and Bob....I don't believe Dr. Clarke is saying the man is always the sinner....just in the example that was given.
 
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FaithPrevails

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That is in the article...but, I will quote it:

The "wimpy" approach is this:



It really is up to the individual IF they even get to repentance, but the main thing is that the counselor/therapist has done their job.....they have called the sin, just what it is..."sin".

Dr. Clarke's approach is this (there is more laid out in the article)


*Male pronouns and the word "husband" were used as the above is related to the scenerio of Susie and Bob....I don't believe Dr. Clarke is saying the man is always the sinner....just in the example that was given.

Well, I *thought* that is what I said with this post quoted below. Did you not read it the same way? Because I see Dr. Clarke's approach as pretty much the same as mine. :sorry:


What this should look like in my opinion is this:

-Acknowledgement of the sin (by the person confronting the sinner) in a firm, but loving manner.

-Discussion about the sin (why it happened, how it can be stopped, what needs to be done to repent/repair, boundaries for preventing it in the future). This should be done calmly, rationally, and without active anger. IOW, the person confronting can tell the sinner they are angry/hurt/"insert emotion" but it should be told without the actual emotion impacting the person's ability to discuss the issue.

-Expression of love to the sinner (words, hugs, shared prayer).

This doesn't have to all take place in the course of one interaction. It can be broken up. Acknowledge the sin - but, "I'm angry right now. We will have to talk about this later." Pray over the situation, then sit down and flesh it out as outlined in the second point I made. Then, show the person somehow that you still love them.

JMHO
 
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