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Grace & Truth

Conservativation

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Yes...it does mean that the ultimate result is peace...100%. You are confusing the dust flying with the acute drama, with the profound and ultimate peace. 2 diff things. Jesus came with to be a sword....sure....not for us to be swords. He asked that the human sword be sheathed at the point of collecting him for his own death. His sword is the power of his act on the cross, and the miraculous power of His Father. Not some smiting thing for people to bear a la crusades or something, and it is an apt comparison to mention crusades....its only different by degrees, its the same mindset.
 
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Romanseight2005

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Even where the scriptures say to be peaceable as much as it concerns us, this is still not talking about not speaking the truth in order to maintain peace. In fact where that passage is listed is right in the midst of a passage about letting an unbelieving spouse leave. If we were to simply keep the peace, and not speak up, the unbelieving spouse would not want to leave. It's the very fact that, now the person is living in truth, that is offensive to the unbeliever.
 
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The peace that passes all understanding is one of the fruits of the spirit when you are a Christian. It's the peace that you have when it doesn't make sense to be peaceful, the peace that David talks about, the comfort he felt even in the valley of the shadow of death--why was it there? Because God was with him, and his rod (authority) and staff (guidance) comforted him. He knew where to go and what to do even though things were bleak and terrible. That's the peace being spoken of.
 
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Even where the scriptures say to be peaceable as much as it concerns us, this is still not talking about not speaking the truth in order to maintain peace. In fact where that passage is listed is right in the midst of a passage about letting an unbelieving spouse leave. If we were to simply keep the peace, and not speak up, the unbelieving spouse would not want to leave. It's the very fact that, now the person is living in truth, that is offensive to the unbeliever.

So now you're saying that our purpose is getting the unbelieving spouse to leave?
 
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mkgal1

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I am not talking about "smiting"....or us being weapons...not against people, anyway.

What I am talking about is that there are two sides....the truth...and lies. People have to choose one side...no one can be (or is able to be) hovering between the two.

That passage in Matthew talks about the division within families. That sons will be against fathers.....women against MIL's ....daughters against mothers. Our love for God needs to be supreme....and what truly unites us with others is having a love for HIM in common.

Being reconciled with God means seeing sin (anything that comes against HIS perfect love).....and wanting for others to experience HIS perfect love. For others to accept HIS gift of salvation.......but, that takes seeing the sin that divides.
 
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Romanseight2005

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So now you're saying that our purpose is getting the unbelieving spouse to leave?


Absolutely not! My point is that being peaceable doesn't include not standing up for the truth. I agree with you that we can show God's indwelling peace in us, but can we distribute that peace to others? We can show them where we got it, but we can't give it to them.
 
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mkgal1

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Most definitely peace is found when we are reconciled with God; but to pursue "peace" is different than pursuing "truth".

For example....if my goal was peace in my workplace...that could be easily achieved. I could find out what each person felt on matters, and bend to those same beliefs. That may work for a time....but, what would eventually happen though....if there were some that had beliefs in opposition of one-another.....is, I would be labeled as a double-minded person.

It is just like pursuing happiness and joy. Some chase after those things....separate from chasing after God. It CAN happen that happiness and joy will be found....but, separate from God, it will only be fleeting. If a person is reconciled with God, though....if THAT is the pursuit....then joy will be found.

It matters what we are actually in pursuit of. Joy and peace are the results of our relationship with God...but, HE is what we are in pursuit of to obtain that.
 
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mkgal1

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So now you're saying that our purpose is getting the unbelieving spouse to leave?
No....the purpose is to take a stand....and not bend to the whims of others for the sake of peace.

That "stand" BTW....IS what is best for everyone....it includes God's love, which is a "win-win" for EVERYONE. The thing is....we can't make that decision for everyone....that has to be an individual decision.....they need to believe in the "win--win" themself.
 
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No....the purpose is to take a stand....and not bend to the whims of others for the sake of peace.

That "stand" BTW....IS what is best for everyone....it includes God's love, which is a "win-win" for EVERYONE. The thing is....we can't make that decision for everyone....that has to be an individual decision.....they need to believe in the "win--win" themself.

I was kind of kidding, but also pointing out that it does seem to be saying what I said.

So let's take one example: pornography use. Since that is a hot button topic. What I take issue with here is that it is such an emotionally charged issue for women in particular that I think that taking a stand is the least of it when the subject comes up. And in some ways the OP suggests that the reasons for sinning are almost irrelevant--and yet at the same time you seem to be saying that it can be relevant. I wonder if you agree then that the root causes for sinful behaviour are relevant in that our reasons may be reasons that are actually denying our need to pursue God for what we imagine we need.

(sorry if that sounds really muddled)

So let me try to break this idea down a bit. Let's say that there could be these reasons for pornography.

1. A bad habit. No, before anyone goes (HABIT!? It's adultery! Get the stones!) listen to me. Social habits do exist, and they can be detrimental to a relationship. Imagine for a moment growing up believing that only gay men don't look avidly at pictures of naked women or stare at attractive women hungrily. This happens often enough. Men are strongly encouraged to look at women this way. Just imagine then when you have what you think of as a normal habit and your wife starts screaming at you about it. How is this going to convince you not to do it? It will only convince you that she's flipping out. So in this case--it's sinful right? The sin in this case not acknowledging the unique creation of God that every person is. More ignorance than anything else. If you discover that it's really just a bad habit then explaining how women are also God's vessels and need to be treated with respect will gradually take hold and he'll stop. Emphasis on "God's vessels" here. And remember, all of us can have bad habits in the flesh that we need to reexamine our thoughts on.


2. Fear of real sex. Believe it or not, men can suffer performance anxiety and worry about relationships--in fact we all know this right? Fear of rejection of particular sexual desires or performance or whatever comes into play here. So women in pornography are easy to deal with; in fact they promote the idea that they OUGHT to be easy to deal with. The sin here is being afraid of pursuing marital love as God intended. The turnaround is urging him to pray with you about that, getting him away from the deception of pornography and into the delights of the marriage bed.

3. Perversion. There are some people who get off on things that are simply perverted sex, kinks that go beyond a little playfulness or roleplaying for example, and so it may be something secret. It may be homosexuality. This is a more serious area to pray over. The man in question (or the woman for that matter) is looking deliberately for something or someone that is not their spouse because they are not dealing directly with desires that they have not confessed to. So here the problem is that they are not giving their desires up to the Lord and trying to discover how God would have them deal with them. The sin here is avoiding correction or instruction from God.

4. Previous Relationship Benefits. This is one that sounds complicated but really isn't. A person who was unsaved before they married into a Christian marriage may have had enjoyable sex with other lovers before they got married and pornography may have enhanced it. Now this is equivalent to someone having stolen stuff to make money before they became a Christian. There were obvious benefits, you see? Has anyone here ever experienced something like this? Something that seemed in many ways beneficial before they got saved, which they struggled with later?

The sin here is in not being open to renewing the mind. Clearly we are called to do this, but if it were easy everyone would casually do it. It's not a sin for it to be a struggle to be overcome, but it is a sin never to want to overcome it. Here the sinner needs to see that God is offering more and better than sinful ways led to.

I hope this all makes sense. I can see in the OP and the posts immediately following it a concern that psychological terminology leads us away from understanding of sin, but I think it can be useful in identifying how to deal with particular sins. Remember that Jesus did this--he didn't always heal the same way or teach the same way, he did it as it was appropriate to the situation. We need to learn the wisdom to do the same thing.
 
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FaithPrevails

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The peace that passes all understanding is one of the fruits of the spirit when you are a Christian. It's the peace that you have when it doesn't make sense to be peaceful, the peace that David talks about, the comfort he felt even in the valley of the shadow of death--why was it there? Because God was with him, and his rod (authority) and staff (guidance) comforted him. He knew where to go and what to do even though things were bleak and terrible. That's the peace being spoken of.

This. I will add that I firmly believe we can speak up and still have peace when something bothers us - even if the other person tries to turn it into a disagreement.

It may not always be easy to achieve, but it IS achievable.
 
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FaithPrevails

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I am not talking about "smiting"....or us being weapons...not against people, anyway.

What I am talking about is that there are two sides....the truth...and lies. People have to choose one side...no one can be (or is able to be) hovering between the two.

That passage in Matthew talks about the division within families. That sons will be against fathers.....women against MIL's ....daughters against mothers. Our love for God needs to be supreme....and what truly unites us with others is having a love for HIM in common.

Being reconciled with God means seeing sin (anything that comes against HIS perfect love).....and wanting for others to experience HIS perfect love. For others to accept HIS gift of salvation.......but, that takes seeing the sin that divides.

We can and should strive to tell the truth IN LOVE, though. That's what grace and truth looks like, IMO.

"Husband/wife, you are doing XYZ which is sin. It is affecting you/your ability to function and is hurting me. How can I help you remove this sin from your life? What is the cause of this sin and how can we find a healthy way for you to cope or fix what is causing it?"

"Husband/wife, what you are doing is sin and God hates sin. You need to stop and repent your sinful ways to God. You are destroying both of us and you don't seem to care! Don't get mad at me, though. I wouldn't have to say this if you would just fix the sin."

Which approach tells the truth in love and which one condemns?
 
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Conservativation

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I am not talking about "smiting"....or us being weapons...not against people, anyway.

What I am talking about is that there are two sides....the truth...and lies. People have to choose one side...no one can be (or is able to be) hovering between the two.

That passage in Matthew talks about the division within families. That sons will be against fathers.....women against MIL's ....daughters against mothers. Our love for God needs to be supreme....and what truly unites us with others is having a love for HIM in common.

Being reconciled with God means seeing sin (anything that comes against HIS perfect love).....and wanting for others to experience HIS perfect love. For others to accept HIS gift of salvation.......but, that takes seeing the sin that divides.


If someone wrote these things, on occasion, it is easy to take at face value as a statement of solid Biblical truth. But after so many and so much of it, the below is what I read as subtext in yours and romans posts. Its getting a bit much to take. Its as if you teo have positioned yourselves somewhere over the rest or something , taking these things way to far as private crusades for you guys to sort everyone out with. It really starts to seem this way

What I am talking about is that there are two sides....the truth (YOUR side)...and lies(the other persons side). People have to choose one side...no one can be (or is able to be) hovering between the two. (oh that it were this clear)

That passage in Matthew talks about the division within families. That sons will be against fathers.....women against MIL's ....daughters against mothers. Our love for God needs to be supreme....and what truly unites us with others is having a love for HIM in common.

Being reconciled with God means (YOU)seeing sin(IN OTHERS)(anything that comes against HIS perfect love).....and wanting for others to experience HIS perfect love. For others to accept HIS gift of salvation.......but, that takes(the other person) seeing the sin that divides (ME FROM THEM)
 
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Conservativation

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We can and should strive to tell the truth IN LOVE, though. That's what grace and truth looks like, IMO.

"Husband/wife, you are doing XYZ which is sin. It is affecting you/your ability to function and is hurting me. How can I help you remove this sin from your life? What is the cause of this sin and how can we find a healthy way for you to cope or fix what is causing it?"

"Husband/wife, what you are doing is sin and God hates sin. You need to stop and repent your sinful ways to God. You are destroying both of us and you don't seem to care! Don't get mad at me, though. I wouldn't have to say this if you would just fix the sin."

Which approach tells the truth in love and which one condemns?

EXACTLY

Bluntly

One is sanctimony....the other is love
 
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Conservativation

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Absolutely not! My point is that being peaceable doesn't include not standing up for the truth. I agree with you that we can show God's indwelling peace in us, but can we distribute that peace to others? We can show them where we got it, but we can't give it to them.

The height we set ourselves at is that from which we will fall. KNOW that!
Ive seen it happen many times. You may as well hang a target on you.
 
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mkgal1

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We can and should strive to tell the truth IN LOVE, though. That's what grace and truth looks like, IMO.

"Husband/wife, you are doing XYZ which is sin. It is affecting you/your ability to function and is hurting me. How can I help you remove this sin from your life? What is the cause of this sin and how can we find a healthy way for you to cope or fix what is causing it?"

"Husband/wife, what you are doing is sin and God hates sin. You need to stop and repent your sinful ways to God. You are destroying both of us and you don't seem to care! Don't get mad at me, though. I wouldn't have to say this if you would just fix the sin."

Which approach tells the truth in love and which one condemns?
Exactly. We cannot amputate verses of the Bible from each other...they all go together...there are NO contradictions.

Personally....I don't think "speaking the truth in love" HAS a certain approach. What McS is true....each person needs to be treated on an individual basis--just as Jesus did. Meaning, I can't say what specific words are said...or, what tone they are said in....it is about the attitude behind them. The attitude should be what I bolded first...but, because of the response of the spouse being confronted....the words may have to be more like the second approach...or something like, "What you are doing ins destroying both you individually...and your marriage...and you need to stop that and start doing things completely differently." I do feel those words (the second approach) would be better said by a 3rd party...not the spouse.
 
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mkgal1

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If someone wrote these things, on occasion, it is easy to take at face value as a statement of solid Biblical truth. But after so many and so much of it, the below is what I read as subtext in yours and romans posts. Its getting a bit much to take. Its as if you teo have positioned yourselves somewhere over the rest or something , taking these things way to far as private crusades for you guys to sort everyone out with. It really starts to seem this way

What I am talking about is that there are two sides....the truth (YOUR side)...and lies(the other persons side). People have to choose one side...no one can be (or is able to be) hovering between the two. (oh that it were this clear)

That passage in Matthew talks about the division within families. That sons will be against fathers.....women against MIL's ....daughters against mothers. Our love for God needs to be supreme....and what truly unites us with others is having a love for HIM in common.

Being reconciled with God means (YOU)seeing sin(IN OTHERS)(anything that comes against HIS perfect love).....and wanting for others to experience HIS perfect love. For others to accept HIS gift of salvation.......but, that takes(the other person) seeing the sin that divides (ME FROM THEM)
No, Cons....you have the "sub-text" all wrong.

Me seeing sin in another person isn't going to help one bit (on its own)...THEY need to see it themself--THAT is the ONLY way there is going to be "healing".

THAT is my point. That is the most difficult thing....when we love someone, and THEY won't see what they are doing that is killing them. To watch someone drown right before you...when you are holding out the lifeline and they perceive that lifeline as what is causing them to suffer as they are gasping for breath and choking.
 
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We can and should strive to tell the truth IN LOVE, though. That's what grace and truth looks like, IMO.

"Husband/wife, you are doing XYZ which is sin. It is affecting you/your ability to function and is hurting me. How can I help you remove this sin from your life? What is the cause of this sin and how can we find a healthy way for you to cope or fix what is causing it?"

"Husband/wife, what you are doing is sin and God hates sin. You need to stop and repent your sinful ways to God. You are destroying both of us and you don't seem to care! Don't get mad at me, though. I wouldn't have to say this if you would just fix the sin."

Which approach tells the truth in love and which one condemns?

In a way I think that this is the grace we should be focused on the most. What good does it do to point out sin if we're sinful ourselves? Isn't this the beam in our own eye when we're trying to point out sin?
 
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Conservativation

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No, Cons....you have the "sub-text" all wrong.

Me seeing sin in another person isn't going to help one bit...THEY need to see it themself--THAT is the ONLY way there is going to be "healing".

THAT is my point. That is the most difficult thing....when we love someone, and THEY won't see what they are doing that is killing them. To watch someone drown right before you...when you are holding out the lifeline and they perceive that lifeline as what is causing them to suffer.

Thats a play on words.

OK, so they have to see it themselves. But...YOU have already seen it, right? in them? So....you need to make them aware.

same thing, just reworded
 
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mkgal1

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Thats a play on words.

OK, so they have to see it themselves. But...YOU have already seen it, right? in them? So....you need to make them aware.

same thing, just reworded
:scratch: You think a person can't be convicted by the Holy Spirit??
 
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Exactly. We cannot amputate verses of the Bible from each other...they all go together...there are NO contradictions.

Personally....I don't think "speaking the truth in love" HAS a certain approach. What McS is true....each person needs to be treated on an individual basis--just as Jesus did. Meaning, I can't say what specific words are said...or, what tone they are said in....it is about the attitude behind them. The attitude should be what I bolded first...but, because of the response of the spouse being confronted....the words may have to be more like the second approach...or something like, "What you are doing ins destroying both you individually...and your marriage...and you need to stop that and start doing things completely differently." I do feel those words (the second approach) would be better said by a 3rd party...not the spouse.

There's a pretty good example in a secular novel I read. A couple are dating. The guy has a drinking problem. She notices it after the first time they spend the night together and asks him about in the morning, asking "Do we have a problem with drinking?" basically. He says he'll make sure that it doesn't happen again. It does happen again. He again promises her he'll stop. She says gently but firmly that he already said that. She says that she'd appreciate it if he'd consider joining a 12 step program to stop having a drinking problem, and that she'll stick by him if he does. He agrees, doesn't go, and gets drunk and out of control again. She leaves him, leaving him a note that says that she would like if he still wants to be with him again once he has joined a program to stop his drinking.

I think that there's nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand, and that ultimately it's between the couple how they handle it. Hoping that a 3rd party will somehow have an impact--maybe I'm pessimistic and I apologize if that's the case, but I've rarely seen a serious disagreement between spouses end because of couples therapy or whatever. It's just another source of advice. What changes people (or not) is if you seem to mean what you say.

When it comes right down to it though, people almost never change unless the price of changing is less than the price of staying the same. Almost never.

And, let me add that they are aware of the price and care enough about it.
 
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