Grace etc

[hairettic]

Cheers gratis! The grace revolution is here!

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Yes Gratis. The Grace Revoltuion is now. Grace is a personal loving attitude, and painful realisation of who really needs Jesus (ie. "us" more than "them"). Grace will dismantle our institutions while welding us together.

I will come back to some realistions about orthodox church and grace laters.

 

[tryingtobeagain]

Yesterday I was profoundly shaken by the most beautiful soul I have ever come across, theres been a -whaddyacallit - paradygm shift inside of me, maybe. Thanks TryinToBe, I'm so happy yer starting to see the other half of it!!!!! Hope I will too now! LOL.

Peace out you happy, hippy people who may yet prove to be more than disembodied scrawling text on my laptop. Thinking we should all hook up in 07, I'm gonna be Stateside visiting Shane in Summer. Beers are on Gukky.

This just goes to show you that God shows His grace in different ways to each of us. He puts people in our paths to show us differnt things in htis world and it's up to us to pay attention to them. God also works through us and others to help us evolve, change and become the people we are meant to be. Stay on that potters wheel, I know I am. We will see what turns up in the end.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Potters wheel... or Dj turntable? Or is that too old skool? Two MP3s in an iPod girl.


Some friends in my Church are starting the whole sheebangg up again by having meetings cos they cant do evangelism or discipleship or accountability, or friendships - it seems to me - without meetings. What a crock! IMO. If we cant pursue the Grace of Jesus and live his Gospel as his church within our day-to-day lives, throwing meetings wont help us to achieve it either. It'll distract us for a bit, but meetings must reflect real life community love, not fascilitate it, IMO.

Then there's Canada. I'm getting the impression that true Jesus-loving, World-embracing christians are eeking their lives out with those around them despite having orthodox services. So, there's an exception to prove the rule, eh? I'm still unravelling that one.

If we cant sit with the homeless and shiver with them over a six-pack (or whatever cultural equivalent you wish to insert), I wonder if we really even love Jesus, let alone grasp his love for us and his love for his World. Lets sing our lovesongs of Jesus, but please let us provide percussion to these hymns with our feet walking the Valley of the Shadow of Death. If I cant do even this simple thing, I may as well [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] on God.

 

[hairettic]

good points. IMO. I am feeling a little like I am standing alone, in the cold, shivering right now. But this will pass. Jesus will meet me here! This is the begining of a year without a building for me. (church that is) and I look forward to where he will lead. Done with the bible studies,holy huddles, planning meetings and agendas, and into the great unknown, the world outside of church, I go! Wish me luck eh?

 

[gratis]

huh...bible studies are a good thing, as long as things stay in context

But yeah - meetings are a big time waster and don't get anything accomplished. Lets leave them in the corporate world. And, whoever decided to bring the corporate world to the church, should at the very least be rebuked.

I'd like to share that six pack with the homeless person though. Bet I'd learn a lot!

Jesus was not in a building, why are we trying to keep him there now?

 

[Rick Otto]

"If we cant sit with the homeless and shiver with them over a six-pack (or whatever cultural equivalent you wish to insert), I wonder if we really even love Jesus, let alone grasp his love for us and his love for his World.?"

Que'?

Differn't gifts, maybe.
Meeters can define specific goals & oversee measurable progress, God willing. They can operate on another level, hopefully useful & as effective, as yer shared shivers.

Did you read Ken Kesey?

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Kessey wrote One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest didnt he?

And yes, gifting - although not sure how much gift it takes to share booze with the homeless! But I did put a disclaimer in brackets (just for you Otto Dix).

Glad to know yer shivering too, HairyGirl, Jesus was homeless, after all.

 

[Multi-Elis]

I wonder if we really even love Jesus, let alone grasp his love for us and his love for his World.

This is what I worry over.

Now as for sharing the six pack, I'm probably saying to myself what everybody says to himself: I don't know how do do it, it's weared, etc. And we suppose that if we were two or three to do it with the homeless, then we will feel more confident... and then for sure Yeshua would be there with us... but no one dares to ask a buddy to come and join and do it...

Actually I once tried to strike up a conversation with a begger whom I had met sevral times. I started out by asking her where she lived. "Near here" she answered. Wow. I was already starting wrongly. Of course she'd never tell me where she lives in case I was the secret police and was going to kick her out of her squat or the country.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

This is what I worry over.

Now as for sharing the six pack, I'm probably saying to myself what everybody says to himself: I don't know how do do it, it's weared, etc. And we suppose that if we were two or three to do it with the homeless, then we will feel more confident... and then for sure Yeshua would be there with us... but no one dares to ask a buddy to come and join and do it...

Actually I once tried to strike up a conversation with a begger whom I had met sevral times. I started out by asking her where she lived. "Near here" she answered. Wow. I was already starting wrongly. Of course she'd never tell me where she lives in case I was the secret police and was going to kick her out of her squat or the country.

This is where alcohol can reach the people that we cannot!

Multi-Pass, always good to get you in here, you always have a quirky way of challenging me in such a humble an innocent manner, well done!

In my mind, opening up to someone is not a heavy task, but for many of us it is daunting and tinged with memories of disaster. What you touch on is security, I think. The desire for God to be present and so the implication that more "christians" must be present. I would challenge that assertion strongly, Mutli, but I respect that we are all different and must all bear our own crosses in this regard. I genuinely dont see a difference between myself and the homeless geezer who could do with a beer an some body heat. Perhaps this is why God became human? To truly know that God is equal to us, or to let us know this.

So is this the crux, Multi and co? Do we see ourselves as equal to others, or are we intimated by them or do we separate ourselves from them for fear of their "sin" or our "guilt" or any number of reasons.

I do it everyday, which is why I'm so eager to confront this in myself and be open to all regardless. But openness and appropriateness must often go hand in hand.

Hey I went a whole post without mentioning Ms Trying.

 

[tryingtobeagain]

Sorry...glitch

 

[Multi-Elis]

When I see beggers, I basically don't know what to do. I get so complexed sometimes that I don't answer when saluted. And it's not because I don't care or have no feelings, but because I know so well that I could have been born in their situation easily. And I also know that feelings aren't enough. A begger, to his/her credit, is interested only in the money that can get him or her things they need, and allow him or her to choose what they want (rather than being forced to accept an apple). (I remeber this begger woman who was always being given bread, but what she wanted was split peas.) They might like some friends, but what good is a friend who can't help in time of need? And they might like a job... if they don't have children to take care of at home. So usually when I meet a beggar, they are not my age, or my sex and want the money (again, to their credit. I want it too! There is no difference.) But what I need in order to be able to befriend, help or even give money is dialogue. And I don't know if they realise that. Or even know what it means.

There is an association founded by a catholic preist that seeks to find Yeshua among the poor and most needy people. And today the association is more about creating diologue between those excluded from society and those who live comfortable lives but are willing to go out of their comfort zone and learn something new. It's great, in theory. I remember being told that often thngs go wrong when individuals try to help needy people when they do not have the experience (and maturity?) necessary to deal with the problems that arise. So one of the things they try to do is create diologue between people who try to help others so that it becomes like a mutual support group. That's a bit what I ment by being two or three...
The difficulty with this association is that they are so complexified that they are inhibited. Often times when working with them, we would forget that we are just as much the "needy" people as the people being reached. (We affirmed it in theory, but forgot it in practice and started juging each other for not being perfect) The biggest difficulty was mantaining any real and lasting relationship with those being "reached". And that is extremely important, because if not, you are sending double messages: "oh poor you, you live such difficult lives, I'm here to listen to you" and at the same time "sorry, I'm too busy in my comfortable life to give you a listening ear when you need it in the long run". That was the main reason I left the association: if I were living in a Yuppie guetto with no contact with the outside world, then schedualing time and being faithfull to a select group of people would make sense (infact, the association offers this type of opportunity in a few selected poorish neighbourhoods). But it didn't make sense for me to go through a lot of trouble to reach some unknown neighbourhood far away from my home when I live already in the worst of places in this county!
But maybe I should go back to the association just for the sake of dialogue, to de-complexify myself, because I have a real problem. A support group for complexified inhibited people who need new direction.

 

[Rick Otto]

hand-in-hand.

 

[Multi-Elis]

Triple post

 

[Multi-Elis]

tripple posts there was a bug

 

[Rick Otto]

hand-in-hand.

I can relate eaily to strangers, so maybe I undervalue it a bit. I have more of a cigarette ministery than a beer ministry anyway.

 

[tryingtobeagain]

This is where alcohol can reach the people that we cannot!

Multi-Pass, always good to get you in here, you always have a quirky way of challenging me in such a humble an innocent manner, well done!

In my mind, opening up to someone is not a heavy task, but for many of us it is daunting and tinged with memories of disaster. What you touch on is security, I think. The desire for God to be present and so the implication that more "christians" must be present. I would challenge that assertion strongly, Mutli, but I respect that we are all different and must all bear our own crosses in this regard. I genuinely dont see a difference between myself and the homeless geezer who could do with a beer an some body heat. Perhaps this is why God became human? To truly know that God is equal to us, or to let us know this.

So is this the crux, Multi and co? Do we see ourselves as equal to others, or are we intimated by them or do we separate ourselves from them for fear of their "sin" or our "guilt" or any number of reasons.

I do it everyday, which is why I'm so eager to confront this in myself and be open to all regardless. But openness and appropriateness must often go hand in hand.

Hey I went a whole post without mentioning Ms Trying.

Nice try Flan....lol

I can understand Multi's nervousness. Most of my friends experience the same feelings. I see myself as equal to others and others as equal to me so I feel quite comfortable (while still using my instincts... God gave them to me for a reason and if my gut dosen't match my open nature, then my gut will always win). I would suggest for Multi to come up with some conversation starters before attempting so that you can be a little bit more comfortable.

So, for me, I am an open book (other than the negative personal qualities that I keep to myself). I know that God will be the judge of man so I leave that in His hands and consider myself equal. We are all human, we are all capable of experiencing life and emotions, and the societal position of my brothers and sisters could very well be me so I don't take if for granted. Grace is within us all, sometimes just a question of how to bring it out.

 

[Rick Otto]

Mine is more of a Cigarette Ministry than a Beer Ministry.

 

[Multi-Elis]

triple post

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Wow that whole lot trippled up didnt it?

Multi, complex isnt always bad. Embrace it, sometimes.