Gotta have faith?

[Boomygrrl]

Why don't people see miracles today? Whether you believe it or not, many people do see miracles. Real big ones and the small ones.
Including me.

I guess having faith as small as a mustard seed or having two or more gather in His name aren't enough, as the scriptures imply.
Starvation still exists; cancer still killed my friend. And Christians pray and pray for these kind of things.
Is there a special members exclusive club that only a few select Christians get to be in, in which their prayers get answered?
Yes, I'm being sarcastic in that question. Choose to ignore it if you want to, but faith doesn't even seem to be enough. My Christian friends prayed and prayed for my other friend. People pray everyday for the starving children.

Boomygrrl

 

[Boomygrrl]

I'm sure you've heard something like this many, many times before, in many different ways of wording. But you ask, "Why would we need Jesus?" Here is the answer, as best as I can put it.
The whole story starts in Genesis, Creation. God created people to live in a relationship with Him. Everything was perfect then, because no one had sinned. Ever. They had the relationship with God that He designed them to have.
Then the people sinned--they turned away from God--and the relationship was broken.
Now skip ahead to the New Testament. Jesus died on the cross to pay the price for all our sins. He was perfect, He never sinned. Because of this, when Jesus died, He could take all our sins on Himself. He was judged for our sins, even though He had never done anything wrong. Because the judgement was placed on Jesus, who didn't deserve it, it is taken care of for us.
Because (and you've probably heard this before too) God is perfectly loving and perfectly merciful and at the same time perfectly just and righteous... there seems to be a contradiction. How can someone be perfectly merciful at the same time as being perfectly just, paying punishment for all sin? God did this by taking the punishment Himself. He gave us mercy, and remained just and righteous. That's God's perfect love in action!
That's why we need Jesus. God wants to forgive us, but being the perfectly just God that He is, someone needs to pay the price. That someone is Jesus.


First, God designed morals. They are all from God, so He has the authority to decide what is morally repulsive and what isn't.
I suppose that you could call Jesus' death homicide - he was killed by others. But He allowed it to happen, as a sacrifice. And, while you might choose to consider it suicide, it was not suicide as we consider the term today. It was more of a self-sacrifice than a suicide. The word suicide seems to imply a depressed, hopeless person giving up on life (I'm sure that's not the dictionary definition, but it's the way the word is interpreted by many people in society today) - nothing could be further from the truth! Jesus was providing a way for everyone to live life the way God intended. He was bringing hope to the world, not being hopeless.
And it is love. You have to look at why He died in the first place. He died to save us, to bring us back to a relationship with God. He sacrificed Himself for us - that's definitely love.

But this doesn't make logical sense.
You didn't dig deeper in answering "why?", you just reasserted your position.
God expected perfection and God made the rules He needed to forgive us for not being perfect. What dying on the cross has to do with "washing away our sins" is beyond me.
Are you sure Jesus was a perfect sacrifice? Jesus, as depicted in the bible (perhaps the bible wasn't right?), does sin, not often but he did.
He didn't honor his mother, he worked on the sabbath, he destroyed property (putting the demons into the pigs, appeasing the demons rather than looking at how destroying the pigs could effect the owner and the community, and yes they were repulsed by what Jesus did), he didn't always tell the truth (was supposed to be resurrected after three days and three nights, not after a day and a half; and also stating that he was going to be at the feast but then showed up later). With the exception of the pig and dishonoring his mother, his sins were small, but they were still sins. Just because he reinterpreted them and justified them doesn't make them not sins.
You implied that I cannot be the judge of what is repulsive? I thought God put a sense of right and wrong in everyone, including the unbelievers. Paul implies that in his writings. God gave us our morals. Have you read the 613 commandments in the Old Testament (I think it's 613??). Not all of those sound very moral to me, especially if you're a rape victim.
God doesn't NEED for anyone to pay the price. If God exists, he can forgive us because he wants to.
What is this emphasis on sin, being perfect, needing a sacrifice, etc.?
Sacrificing animals (in the Old Testatment) was barbaric; sacrificing Jesus in the New Testament is even worse.
What is the logical reason behind it? So far I'm getting responses like "that's the way God wanted it to be." "Because the bible said so."
Who really knows what God wants? Will we ever be able to comprehend the Lord Almighty? I don't think we can; and I don't think peasants living in ancient times could either.
I'm rambling now, so I'll end it at that.

Boomygrrl

 

[SuperNova]

It's for logical reasons.
Why did God commit suicide in order to have a relationship with us?

He didn't actually commit suicide. He gave his life away yes, but he allowed others to do it. he simply did not resist. He did it out of pure love. He did it because he is perfect. He is perfect in his love but he is also perfectly just. As a perfectly Just God he had to have a penalty for sin. As a perfectly loving God he had to have a way for us to avoid the penalty, so he took it on himself.

Why don't we see miracles? If our faith is as small as a mustard seed we should be able to "move mountains"?

I've seen miricles. Miricles happen every day. Are you looking for miricles or magic tricks?

Why are there so many inconsistencies in the bible?

There aren't really. The meaning might get mixed up but it all makes sence in some way or another. Also the original languages it was written in are much more complex than english so it might seem like it because of that.

Your pastor is wrong.

If Christianity made logical sense to me, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
As of now, apologetic attempts to my concerns and to others' concerns are often lacking in logic. I want to beat my head on the wall.


If I logically thought it made sense but had emotional reasons for not accepting, I would ask more of the "why does God allow suffering" type of questions.

I don't hate God, I don't hate CHristians, I don't have emotional reasons to reject. None that I'm aware of.

No one has been able to show that God exists, that Christianity is the right religion (and that others are wrong).

I like asking "why?" and then I will ask "why" to the answer provided. I try to dig deep into these questions.
Most of the time I just get scriptures or the same assertions over and over again.
Just like I don't buy from telemarketers (no matter how good they adverstise their product), just like I spend months researching before buying a car, I don't make blind faith judgments. I want informed consent. I want to know what I'm getting myself into. If that's "emotional" then fine. I find that a reasonable way to live.

Boomygrrl

Still I'm not sure what part does not make sence to you.

 

[~SHINE~]

But this doesn't make logical sense.
You didn't dig deeper in answering "why?", you just reasserted your position.
God expected perfection and God made the rules He needed to forgive us for not being perfect. What dying on the cross has to do with "washing away our sins" is beyond me.

Many people call what Jesus did "washing away our sins," but that's probably not the most literal way to look at it. That's more metaphorical, saying that Jesus' blood washed us clean - I'm sure you've heard that expression. Jesus' blood did not literally touch us and make us clean.
What is literal is that Jesus "paid the price for our sins." He did! God is just. That's part of God's characteristics. It's His personality. It can't be changed. It is not possible for God to be just and allow people to get away with sins at the same time. So, God provided a way for the sins to be paid for (for justice to be carried out) that still allowed salvation.

Are you sure Jesus was a perfect sacrifice? Jesus, as depicted in the bible (perhaps the bible wasn't right?), does sin, not often but he did.
He didn't honor his mother, he worked on the sabbath, he destroyed property (putting the demons into the pigs, appeasing the demons rather than looking at how destroying the pigs could effect the owner and the community, and yes they were repulsed by what Jesus did), he didn't always tell the truth (was supposed to be resurrected after three days and three nights, not after a day and a half; and also stating that he was going to be at the feast but then showed up later). With the exception of the pig and dishonoring his mother, his sins were small, but they were still sins. Just because he reinterpreted them and justified them doesn't make them not sins.

Aren't you doing exactly what you said Jesus shouldn't do? You're reinterpreting what Jesus said and, essentially, unjustifying the sins. Jesus is God. When Jesus said they were not sins, He certainly knew what He was talking about. There are verses, as well, that say that Jesus was perfect. I can find some for you if you like - I don't have my Bible with me right now.

You implied that I cannot be the judge of what is repulsive? I thought God put a sense of right and wrong in everyone, including the unbelievers. Paul implies that in his writings. God gave us our morals. Have you read the 613 commandments in the Old Testament (I think it's 613??). Not all of those sound very moral to me, especially if you're a rape victim.

Can you give me a specific verse, or chapter written by Paul implying that everyone has a sense of right and wrong?
If it's true that people can tell what is right and wrong on their own, why do some people find little white lies OK and some don't? Why do some find big lies OK and some don't? Why are there murderers and rapists, people who commit terrible crimes, that don't feel bad about what they did?
And can you be a little more specific about the rape victims you're talking about to in the Old Testament? I don't know what commandment you're referring to.

God doesn't NEED for anyone to pay the price. If God exists, he can forgive us because he wants to.
What is this emphasis on sin, being perfect, needing a sacrifice, etc.

No, He can't.
There are some characteristics of God that apply here. God is merciful. He wants to forgive us. God is just. He must carry out justice for sins. God is unchanging. He cannot change the fact that He is both merciful and just. Because of these three characteristics, God cannot forgive us just because He wants to. Someone does have to pay the price. If no one paid the price, how would God be just?

Sacrificing animals (in the Old Testatment) was barbaric; sacrificing Jesus in the New Testament is even worse.

Surely sin is more barbaric to God than sacrifice is to us. No sacrifice would ever be needed if humans hadn't sinned in the first place.

What is the logical reason behind it? So far I'm getting responses like "that's the way God wanted it to be." "Because the bible said so."
Who really knows what God wants? Will we ever be able to comprehend the Lord Almighty? I don't think we can; and I don't think peasants living in ancient times could either.
I'm rambling now, so I'll end it at that.

You're right - we can't comprehend God.
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways,” declares the LORD. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.”
Isaiah 55:8-9
But God has given us His Son (Jesus) and His Word (the Bible) so that we can begin to comprehend His love for us.

 

[Alchemist]

This is an interesting point you make here. But is it the same type of faith? The reason that atheists don't beleive is simply because they have never been presented evidence that god exists. The reason that theists beleive is because they beleive they have received some inner revelation.

Indeed, this is a point for discussion. I guess my point is there can't really be any evidence for God's existance, unless we witness a 'miracle', such as healing, God speaking to us, or a thousand angels appearing in a public place! Even if these things happen, of course, one can either accept or reject the testimony of those people who claim they saw these events. So perhaps it is a different type of faith in this sense.

The only evidence most of us have for God's existance is religious teaching. I accept Jesus came to Earth and did the things he is supposd to have done because I trust the testimony of those who (apparently) witnessed his mission. I believe the closest testimony one can get is that coming from people close to him, in the same time period, so that leads me to trust his disciples, one of whom was Peter, who was a co-founder of the Christian church. I accept the Jewish scriptures, because Jesus taught from them, and said that they were true, and the word of God. In accepting the scriptures, I accept one God, who created the universe. I accept the Gospels, because they are the (I believe) best records of his teaching on Earth, and the epistles because they were written (primarily) by Paul, who I mentioned before.

Indeed, I do have faith in something I have never witnessed (the coming of Christ). I do have faith in a God I cannot prove exists. But, assuming a god does exist, Christianity makes sense to me, as it has at least some evidence that it is a valid religion. In having faith in Christianity, I guess I have faith in God. Seems circular reasoning I know, but without assuming a God could exist, then Christianity doesn't make sense...

But I suppose if you wanted to use the word "faith" in such a way, then we all have faith that Santa claus does'nt exist.

Indeed lol. I think Christianity requires less faith than the Santa Claus hypothesis though, don't ya think?

And faith also, from my understanding, is closely related to hope.Do you think atheists hope that god does'nt exist, in the same way theists hope that he does exist?

Ooh interesting one. Christian fundamentalists would say that there is a reason that you don't want to accept God, although I don't really agree with this entirely. Of course, as I have mentioned, to believe in God requires faith, so Christianity cannot be completely logically proven; some atheists are very reluctant to have faith in something. But I don't think that many atheists hope God doesn't exist. In many worldviews on God, God would not care what religion (if any) the people on Earth follow. The only reason I can think that atheists would hope God didn't exist (i.e. are scared of Him) would be if they had a strong, fundamentalist, 'fire and brimstone'-style Christian upbringing, and are honestly scared of eternal damnation. If this is the case, one would have to wonder how atheistic the person actually was; do they not believe in God, or do they not want to believe in God? So I would say no, they do not.

God is just not a concept in the atheist world view. To say that they use the same faith seems like an equivocation to me. But as always, I may be dead wrong.

I understand this; I have as far as I remember always been a theist, so I don't think I have really experienced atheism. But from a logical standpoint, if one group says God exists, and one doesn't, then there is no way to prove or disprove either side. Theists believe there is evidence for a God, atheists reject this evidence. This is their perrogative, and really, there is no 'right' answer from an objective standpoint. My point was not that theism is more likely than atheism (as there is no way to prove God, except by witnessing Him), but that in denying the existance of something they cannot detect, atheists are not really being agnostic about God's presense - they assume he does not exist. Of course, Christians do the same thing, but both parties make assumptions.

Unless of course, this god was'nt into the religion making business. Like Deism.

Yes, this is true.

Did you investigate every other religion to test for truth before you came to christianity? If not, then how do you know that your religion holds the monopoly on truth?

No, I didn't. As I pointed out before, I believe Christian teaching because I put trust in the followers of Jesus to accurately record his teachings, and for those teachings to be preserved. I cannot be totally sure that my religion is the truth; of course, I have my doubts like everyone else. But as a monotheist, Christianity seems the most historically-justifiable, logical religion to me. As I am not a deist by nature, I cannot accept Islam (which teaches that Christian and Jewish teaching was corrupted from its original form, because this would posit God ignored creation for a good 4000 years before setting it 'right' again. Of course, one could argue that my monotheistic, non-deistic conceptions about God are in part due to my upbringing, and they'd probably be right lol. Indeed, for those bought up in a polytheistic environment, monotheism probably makes as little sense as polytheism makes to me. I guess I can't say anything else than I am a monotheist by nature, and so Christianity makes the most sense out of the monotheistic religions.

What if I wasn't a Christian? Well, thats a good question. If I was still a theist, I'd probably just be a non-religious theist, trying to do my best for other people. Otherwise, I'd probably follow a religion such as Buddhism, Hinduism, or a spiritual religion such as that. I believe that all religions have some element of truth in them. I do not think that Christianity holds a 'monopoly' on truth, but (at the moment) I am pretty sure that Christianity is that truth, or as close to that truth as possible.

I would enjoy a further discussion on this in another section of the forum. From my research, I have'nt found any secular historical records that supports Jesus' life as portrayed in the gospels, but I would be interested in hearing what you have found.

I am not sure of the exact details; I would be interested in doing some more research on this as well. From what I have heard, the Romans were pretty good at keeping records on crucifixions, and that there was a Jewish man executed under the jurisdiction of Pilate at the date given by the Bible. Also, I have been informed that there are written records from a Roman historian alive at the time, detailing the crucifixion of Jesus. I have not seen these records myself, but I will try and find some references for you.

I'll take that advice to heart. I have prayed before, but nothing ever came of those prayers. Perhaps i'm doing it all wrong; don't know.

Prayer is a difficult one. I can't really give any advice here; I guess its one of those ironic things: you need faith to pray, even if you wish to pray for faith. I hope that it works out for you eventually.

Peace,
Alchemist

 

[Harold Fletcher]

Alchemist,

I'd like to continue the discussion in another forum; that is if you are interested. I think i've worn out my welcome here. Some anonymous moderator is deleting all my posts so it probably would'nt be benefitial to the dialouge if you can't read them. Try e-mailing me so we can rendeveous elsewhere. Hopefully you'll read this before it's deleted.

 

[sinner/SAVED]

I've seen miricles. Miricles happen every day. Are you looking for miricles or magic tricks?

I am a miracle. (So are you!) (So is Booomygrrl!) (So is Harold!)
etc., etc. etc....

 

[sinner/SAVED]

Can you give me a specific verse, or chapter written by Paul implying that everyone has a sense of right and wrong?

Romans 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things He has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four footed animals or reptiles.

If it's true that people can tell what is right and wrong on their own, why do some people find little white lies OK and some don't? Why do some find big lies OK and some don't? Why are there murderers and rapists, people who commit terrible crimes, that don't feel bad about what they did?

People justify their sins in their own minds. They have no doubt that their actions are wrong. They do them anyway. That is why it is sin. How could it be wrong if you had no knowledge of wrong. If people who commit terrible crimes do not think what they did is wrong, then why do they try to cover it up or even defend themselves. If they truly thought that their actions were "right", then we would never hear, "I didn't do it." We would hear, "Yeah I did that, why are you putting me in these handcuffs?"

 

[Boomygrrl]

I hope everyone has a safe and merry Christmas. I will be gone for a few days, enjoying the holidays. I will respond to some of the posts next week.

Peace,
Boomygrrl

 

[biblebabe003]

I don't really know how to describe faith to someone who doesn't have it, but i'll try. God is kind of like the wind, you can't see HIm, but you can feel Him. He's always been there and he always will be, but you have to acknowledge that. if you're trying to fly a kite but you don't have any idea what way the wind is blowing or how hard, it will be a lot harder than if you understand what's going on. I guess you just have to understand that God is the reason for everything. When you look at things in nature, how do you think those got here if you have no faith? You need to know that God created all of those things and he even created you and me. He will always always love you, no matter what you feel about Him

 

[kooolfriend]

I must ask though, did you just merely study these other religions, or did you give a whole hearted effort to pursue these other gods?

I don't doubt that at all. If I beleive that some entity is monitoring my thoughts 24/7, then of course my thoughts, and in turn, my behaviour will radically change.
Even if god didn't exist, yet someone beleived he did, and believed he interacted with them on a daily basis, it would bring security, happiness and purpose to their life, which ultimately could affect their overall quality of life.

Another fact that is favorable for god's existence is that we can't hit the rewind button to see if events would have unfolded any differently had we, or had not we prayed about a certain person or event.

I live in a cosmopolitan country, therefore I got a lot of friends in different religions. In those times, that I realized that there must be a God somewhere, I have decided to search for Him. Thus I was thinking that may be the real God was in fact in Islam, thus my islamic friends were most glad to introduce me their religion, I really studied it wholeheartedly thinking I was coming at last to find some truth, I was even ready to convert to their belief. But after the moment of amazement, I found too much contradictions with their teachings, thus I turned to hinduism and then to buddhism.
But I found too many rituals in those religions (catholicism, islamic, hinduism and buddhism), God was still a far away, mysterious God for me, as there were too many beliefs that I need to put in. I felt like as if it was only one part relationship and it’s I who was doing the whole of it. That’s why for me, I rejected those religion.

The day I found Christ, it was all different, It was He who came to me, It was no more I believing, it was something real, it was like having a relationship with somebody, each day passed by, I knew something more of Him and I share Him my thoughts and He in turn share me His thoughts and as each day passed by I love Him more and more.
Now for me, God is no more a far away God, neither a mysterious God, although I have still a lot of God I need to know of. But God is a like a father to me, and most important we have a personal, deep, intimate and real relationship.

I sincerely hope that one day you may desire to know God as I know Him.

 

[kooolfriend]

I've prayed, I've read the bible, I've been in bible study groups, I have been seeking for 17 years. I guess God doesn't want me to find him.
To be honest, I'm about to give up.
I've also read parts of the bible that make me want to not pursue this any further. God is not only a god of love, but a god of hate and revenge.

Maybe I should take a long vacation away from pursuing this and just wait for God to speak to me. A relationship needs to go both ways. I can metaphorically "write letters, call," etc but if the phone keeps ringing and my letters keep getting returned to me, then maybe the person I'm contacting doesn't exist or doesn't care.

Boomygrrl

I agree with you a relationship need to go both ways.
I don’t know why in those 17yrs you still haven’t find God yet, but one thing that I know of God is that He does not make any exception to anybody, therefore I will say that God does want you to know Him and He does care for you greatly.
I don’t know when you will know Him, but if you seek Him you will find Him.
God is a God of great love, and in His love He is also a God of justice, which if we look at a circumstance in only one perspective, we may think of it as a God of hate and revenge.

 

[LegomasterJC]

Vengence is the Lord's. This is true, but God's vengence is Justice, Our Vengence is not Justice. We do not have the right to take revenge. We are not perfect as God is. We did not create all things.
God's Hate is also Just. He hates sin. He hates what is evil.

I found this one that seems to apply to you as well as most of the rest of us.
Luke 18

The Parable of the Persistent Widow

1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’ 4“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don't fear God or care about men, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!’ ”

6And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”


Faith as a mustard seed and two gathered togeather... "When two are gathered togeather I am with them" It doesn't say when two gather togeather, all their wishes will be granted.


This Also:
John 15:7
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, [Matt 7:7; John 15:16] ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

He didn't honor his mother, he worked on the sabbath, he destroyed property (putting the demons into the pigs, appeasing the demons rather than looking at how destroying the pigs could effect the owner and the community, and yes they were repulsed by what Jesus did), he didn't always tell the truth (was supposed to be resurrected after three days and three nights, not after a day and a half; and also stating that he was going to be at the feast but then showed up later). With the exception of the pig and dishonoring his mother, his sins were small, but they were still sins. Just because he reinterpreted them and justified them doesn't make them not sins.

Jesus did honor His mother and His Father and even Joseph.
His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.” 49“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?” 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


This is not being disrespectful to His mother. He wasn't being a "smart Aleck" He was telling them that He was doing what His Father had told Him to do.


The Law for the Sabath is to keep it Holy. NOT to not do anything all day, but to do the Lord's work and set that day aside to devote yourself completely to Him that whole day. The pharasies did not understand this.
In those times when the Jews said something was going to happen on the third day or in three days, they did not think of it as each day being 24 hours. Jesus Died Friday night and Rose on Sunday morning. That's three days. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. PERIOD.
As for sending the Demons into the pigs, Everything belongs to God. Jesus is God and does with what is His as He wills. You may think that that was not loving, but Jesus Freed a man from all those demons and that man went on to tell all what Jesus had done for him .

 

[jamesmic36]

Hello Boomygrrl

Looks like a lot of people have been trying to convince you about what faith is. This is my suggestion to you. The Bible teaches that Faith in Jesus Christ is the only way for absolute salvation. Christ stand before the Father for us making intersession for those who believe. Plain and simple he stand in between us and the Father and act kind of like our lawyer. No one can justify themselves before the Father, no one. Christ came so that we can be justified by faith. By this faith we receive grace by God to be able to be sanctified without the worry of dying in the sins we know we are going to end up doing. Hopefully as we mature in our walk with Christ we start walking more Christ like each day. There is none of us who believe in Christ that will end up perfect when we die. Just our plain and simple faith in Christ is good enough for God to not hold our sins against us. This you can believe if you like, this is your choice OR you can stand before God yourself and be your own lawyer. Trust me that day is coming when you will be able to tell God how wrong he is and how just you are. You can tell God how illogical his plan of salvation was. I am sure you can justify yourself and God will not hold you accountable for your sins. I am sure you will let him know all about how you have a right into his Kingdom.

If you are having problems believing it does not matter your belief will not hinder the truth. You will have your time before God to justify your own actions, Or hopefully, you will come to accept Christ and let him plead case for you. The choice is yours, God bless you in Jesus precious name.

 

[Boomygrrl]

You need to know that God created all of those things and he even created you and me. He will always always love you, no matter what you feel about Him

I have to have faith to come to this conclusion. So far, I haven't come to this conclusion yet.

Boomygrrl

 

[Boomygrrl]

Vengence is the Lord's. This is true, but God's vengence is Justice, Our Vengence is not Justice. We do not have the right to take revenge. We are not perfect as God is. We did not create all things.
God's Hate is also Just. He hates sin. He hates what is evil.

I found this one that seems to apply to you as well as most of the rest of us.
Luke 18

The Parable of the Persistent Widow

1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’ 4“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don't fear God or care about men, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!’ ”

6And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”


Faith as a mustard seed and two gathered togeather... "When two are gathered togeather I am with them" It doesn't say when two gather togeather, all their wishes will be granted.


This Also:
John 15:7
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, [Matt 7:7; John 15:16] ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.


Jesus did honor His mother and His Father and even Joseph.
His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.” 49“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?” 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


This is not being disrespectful to His mother. He wasn't being a "smart Aleck" He was telling them that He was doing what His Father had told Him to do.


The Law for the Sabath is to keep it Holy. NOT to not do anything all day, but to do the Lord's work and set that day aside to devote yourself completely to Him that whole day. The pharasies did not understand this.
In those times when the Jews said something was going to happen on the third day or in three days, they did not think of it as each day being 24 hours. Jesus Died Friday night and Rose on Sunday morning. That's three days. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. PERIOD.
As for sending the Demons into the pigs, Everything belongs to God. Jesus is God and does with what is His as He wills. You may think that that was not loving, but Jesus Freed a man from all those demons and that man went on to tell all what Jesus had done for him .

So if God has vengence it's called justice. If God does anythig that as a mere mortal being might find repulsive, we are just to sit down and say "it's okay because God did it."
I would have no problem with that, except for one thing.
How can we even say that God is just or merciful, if his justice and mercy looks like something else? These words become meaningless.
True, if God existed, God can do whatever in the heck he wants to do and we cannot control that.
But why call it words like "justice, loving," etc. if that is nothing like in our experience?


You gave an example of Jesus going into the temple when he was 12.
That's not the passage of scripture I was referring to.
I'm thinking more of Jesus denying that his mother was his mother or that his brothers were his brothers.
This was after Jesus tried to perform miracles in his hometown, but many didn't believe, so he couldn't perfrom them. Then, he preached in the temple of his homeland.
Many thought he was crazy. They "drove" him out.
Mary and Jesus' brothers went looking for him.
He told his followers that Mary and his brothers weren't his family, his followers instead were his mothers and brothers.
He, in effect, dishonored his mother.
He could've talked to his mother; he could've told his followers what had happened previously in his hometown and his mother could've attested to it. Even if she thought he was crazy, he could've reminded her that he was God (how anyone who was a virgin forget that they gave birth to the redeemer is beyond me, but that's a topic in another discussion).
Instead, Jesus denounced his family and claimed his followers as his family. Sounds cultish to me.


Boomygrrl

 

[Boomygrrl]

The Law for the Sabath is to keep it Holy. NOT to not do anything all day, but to do the Lord's work and set that day aside to devote yourself completely to Him that whole day. The pharasies did not understand this.
In those times when the Jews said something was going to happen on the third day or in three days, they did not think of it as each day being 24 hours. Jesus Died Friday night and Rose on Sunday morning. That's three days. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. PERIOD.
As for sending the Demons into the pigs, Everything belongs to God. Jesus is God and does with what is His as He wills. You may think that that was not loving, but Jesus Freed a man from all those demons and that man went on to tell all what Jesus had done for him .

The Sabbath part didn't bother me as much. What bothers me is that in the OT God had these strict rules everyone had to follow. The Pharisees were strict people. Now the tables were turned and we are supposed to see the Pharisees as foolish. I don't know, but if I had lived back then as a Jew, I would've taken my Torah seriously.
Maybe the Jews misinterpreted what the Sabbath was about, I can give you that, but the God in the OT put the Jews through a lot of cr@#, all so He can say "see you can't do it, so I'm going to change the rules." Seems pretty sadistic to me. They had to follow strict rules for fear of being stoned by their countrymen, as directed by the bible. Just seems warped to me.

I know that Jews count the days differently. Part of the day can count for a full day. Jesus had specifically said that like Jonah, it would take three days and three nights.

According to scriptures, Jesus had casted out demons before without sending them to physical entities, like pigs. Why did Jesus give in to the demons' requests? Why did the pig owner (remember this was likely his only source of income) have to suffer by having dead pigs? Jesus was irresponsible in this matter.


Boomygrrl

 

[Boomygrrl]

What is literal is that Jesus "paid the price for our sins." He did! God is just. That's part of God's characteristics. It's His personality. It can't be changed. It is not possible for God to be just and allow people to get away with sins at the same time. So, God provided a way for the sins to be paid for (for justice to be carried out) that still allowed salvation.


Aren't you doing exactly what you said Jesus shouldn't do? You're reinterpreting what Jesus said and, essentially, unjustifying the sins. Jesus is God. When Jesus said they were not sins, He certainly knew what He was talking about. There are verses, as well, that say that Jesus was perfect. I can find some for you if you like - I don't have my Bible with me right now.


Can you give me a specific verse, or chapter written by Paul implying that everyone has a sense of right and wrong?
If it's true that people can tell what is right and wrong on their own, why do some people find little white lies OK and some don't? Why do some find big lies OK and some don't? Why are there murderers and rapists, people who commit terrible crimes, that don't feel bad about what they did?
And can you be a little more specific about the rape victims you're talking about to in the Old Testament? I don't know what commandment you're referring to.


No, He can't.
There are some characteristics of God that apply here. God is merciful. He wants to forgive us. God is just. He must carry out justice for sins. God is unchanging. He cannot change the fact that He is both merciful and just. Because of these three characteristics, God cannot forgive us just because He wants to. Someone does have to pay the price. If no one paid the price, how would God be just?


Surely sin is more barbaric to God than sacrifice is to us. No sacrifice would ever be needed if humans hadn't sinned in the first place.


You're right - we can't comprehend God.
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways,” declares the LORD. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.”
Isaiah 55:8-9
But God has given us His Son (Jesus) and His Word (the Bible) so that we can begin to comprehend His love for us.

Why can't God just forgive? How do you know God's nature? Can you really know the mind and abilities of God?
I think I'm more respectful to this possible God by saying that he CAN. Why limit him? Because the bible says so?
Why is the issue about sin? No one is perfect, and God would be smart enough to figure that out. Why this need for "justice", to "pay for our sins?" Seriously, why the drama of going into human form to have oneself killed and to call that love and forgiveness? It doesn't make sense.
Why is God obsessed with sin, anyways?
I can forgive people, why can't God? God knows what's in our hearts, he can distinguish the good from evil, without using a sacrifice.

Sin is more barbaric than murder? Yes, if the sin is murder, then yes, it's just as barbaric. An imperfect being, messing up time to time, and yes commiting "sin" is more barbaric than animal sacrifice and God-man sacrifice?

Someone else gave the scripture of what Paul was saying about knowing right from wrong.
I don't have the specific scripture about the rape victim. It's likely in Leviticus, but I have to admit, I am too lazy to look it up right now. There are so many commands that it would take me all day to find it.

Basically, what was said was that if a woman is raped, the punishment for the rapist is to marry that woman. Now, that's awful. That's not justice to the victim.
Also, if the woman doesn't scream out that she's being raped, she will be accused of consenting, and then it's not considered rape.
I know that they didn't want people to be wrongfully accused of rape, but they don't take into consideration that a man is stronger than a woman and can keep the woman from screaming. Either by holding her mouth shut or by making real threats that can be carried out if she doesn't comply.

So, basically if a woman is raped, here's what happens.
If her townsmen believe her, she is to marry her perpetrator.
If they don't believe her, she is to be stoned.
If she screams from the rape, she is likely to be killed. If the rapist doesn't kill her, then they get to live happily ever after in such a lovely marriage together.
That's justice and that's morality,isn't it?

How about kids getting stoned for dishonoring their parents? That could be useful in this day and age. I'm only kidding. But still, isn't this a horrific command?

NO, the OT laws are not laws from God almighty. They are laws made from man, reflecting their biases and prejudices. They were said to be of God, so people don't question it and instead follow it.


Boomygrrl

 

[TheMainException]

Man...tough question...needs to be asked though!

 

[kooolfriend]

You gave an example of Jesus going into the temple when he was 12.
That's not the passage of scripture I was referring to.
I'm thinking more of Jesus denying that his mother was his mother or that his brothers were his brothers.
This was after Jesus tried to perform miracles in his hometown, but many didn't believe, so he couldn't perfrom them. Then, he preached in the temple of his homeland.
Many thought he was crazy. They "drove" him out.
Mary and Jesus' brothers went looking for him.
He told his followers that Mary and his brothers weren't his family, his followers instead were his mothers and brothers.
He, in effect, dishonored his mother.
He could've talked to his mother; he could've told his followers what had happened previously in his hometown and his mother could've attested to it. Even if she thought he was crazy, he could've reminded her that he was God (how anyone who was a virgin forget that they gave birth to the redeemer is beyond me, but that's a topic in another discussion).
Instead, Jesus denounced his family and claimed his followers as his family. Sounds cultish to me.


Boomygrrl

Read Luc 11 V 27-28 – Where there was a woman who marvel at His mother, Mary that Mary was a very fortunate to has Him as a child. And Jesus said “ Fortunate are those that hear the word of God and put it in practices.”
And in Luc 8 V 19-21 which is the verse you are referring to, where people are saying Here is Your mother and Your brother.
And what Jesus answers to these people is “ My mother and Brother are all those who hear the word of God and put it in practices.”
He is by no way denying His mother or Brother as he didn’t say these are NOT my mother and brother. But by saying these words Jesus wanted to change their focus, these people were finding Mary and His brother the privileges ones. But Jesus wanted to show these people that they were also a privilege ones just like His mother and Brother. That all these people that hear the word of God and put it in practices were like His mother Mary and Brother.
And finally (John 19 v 25-27) Before Jesus died on the cross, He asked His beloved disciple, John that as from now he will have to take care of Mary as he would for his own mother. That does show Jesus had always care for His mother.

According to scriptures, Jesus had casted out demons before without sending them to physical entities, like pigs. Why did Jesus give in to the demons' requests? Why did the pig owner (remember this was likely his only source of income) have to suffer by having dead pigs? Jesus was irresponsible in this matter.


Boomygrrl

Do you think that the owner was really affected financially by those dead pig, if so don’t you think he would have pursue Jesus for ruining his business. And as a businessman, when it comes to money that’s no game. Trust me they would have known better how to redeem their lost.
And also it is nowhere mentioned that those pigs were all that the owner have, the owner may have many more pigs.
Jesus had consent to let some pigs died in order to save some lost souls.
The insane man from which came out the demons asked Jesus to let him go with Him, but what Jesus answers is “Go ye into the village and tell what God have done for you.” If there wasn’t the spectacular events with the pigs, people could have said to the insane man but these demons that were tormenting you were not really real.



The OT laws were made due to the hardness of the heart of these people at that times.
Praise God that we are no more under the law but now are under the grace.

Proverbs 3 v 5-10. Lean not upon your own understanding, but acknowledge God in all your ways. And then God shall bless you beyond yours thoughts.