Got it all figured out?

[SirKenin]

This came in my mailbox early this morning, and the relevance to this forum struck me immediately. I thought I would share it. It's from Max Lucado @ Oak Hills Devotional.

We understand how storms are created. We map solar systems and transplant hearts. We measure the depths of the oceans and send signals to distant planets. We... have studied the system and are learning how it works.
And, for some, the loss of mystery has led to the loss of majesty. The more we know, the less we believe. Strange, don't you think? Knowledge of the workings shouldn't negate wonder. Knowledge should stir wonder. Who has more reason to worship than the astronomer who has seen the stars?...
Ironically, the more we know, the less we worship. We are more impressed with our discovery of the light switch than with the one who invented electricity.. . .Rather than worship the Creator, we worship the creation (see Rom. 1:25).
No wonder there is no wonder. We've figured it all out.

 

[Michali]

I know his name, Max Lucado, but I can't remember exactly who he is.

 

[lucaspa]

Which shows that Christian preachers aren't doing their job right. They are teaching god-of-the-gaps such that if you eliminate the gaps, you eliminate God.

That's what you get when you accept the basic statement of faith of atheism. Why do creationists and even many mainline Christians do this?

 

[Michali]

Which shows that Christian preachers aren't doing their job right. They are teaching god-of-the-gaps such that if you eliminate the gaps, you eliminate God.

That's what you get when you accept the basic statement of faith of atheism. Why do creationists and even many mainline Christians do this?

I don't believe he was against science. He was just stating that it seems that as we gain more knowledge, we deviate from God. He views this as bad, but apparently not science. He says we should have even a better reason to worship after gaining more knowledge.

 

[Freodin]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Atheism.

I think this Mr. Lucado has got "wonder" and "worship" confused.

 

[Shimmerstar]

oh, well, i see an underlying (subtle vibe) of science-kills-Gods-hiding-places motive too

 

[Michali]

oh, well, i see an underlying (subtle vibe) of science-kills-Gods-hiding-places motive too

Actually, I think your right.

 

[lucaspa]

I don't believe he was against science. He was just stating that it seems that as we gain more knowledge, we deviate from God. He views this as bad, but apparently not science. He says we should have even a better reason to worship after gaining more knowledge.

And I'm not saying Lucado is against science. The answer to Lucado's dilemma is that Christian preachers aren't doing their jobs right. They are teaching god-of-the-gaps theology. That's why as we learn more of the material causes there is less worship. It is perceived as their is no need of worship because the material causes are the only causes and thus exclude God. But viewing material causes as excluding God is the basic statement of faith of atheism.

God-of-the-gaps theology implicitly accepts the basic statement of faith of atheism: a "natural" explanation excludes God.

 

[Michali]

And I'm not saying Lucado is against science. The answer to Lucado's dilemma is that Christian preachers aren't doing their jobs right. They are teaching god-of-the-gaps theology. That's why as we learn more of the material causes there is less worship. It is perceived as their is no need of worship because the material causes are the only causes and thus exclude God. But viewing material causes as excluding God is the basic statement of faith of atheism.

God-of-the-gaps theology implicitly accepts the basic statement of faith of atheism: a "natural" explanation excludes God.

Oh. Yeah, I see what you mean. Are you suggesting that preachers should also point out statements such as these? If so, I agree.

 

[lucaspa]

oh, well, i see an underlying (subtle vibe) of science-kills-Gods-hiding-places motive too

It's not that underlying.

It's right here:
"Ironically, the more we know, the less we worship. We are more impressed with our discovery of the light switch than with the one who invented electricity.. . .Rather than worship the Creator, we worship the creation (see Rom. 1:25).
No wonder there is no wonder. We've figured it all out."

See that "we've figured it all out"? That's not underlying. It's straight god-of-the-gaps. If you can explain electricity in terms of moving electrons, then Lucado would say "we've figured it all out". But we haven't if you use orthodox Christian creation theology. But Lucado doesn't mention that, does he? I don't think he's ever heard of Gravesend or the other 18th century scientist/theologians.

"A Law of Nature then is the rule and Law, according to which God resolved that certain Motions should always, that is, in all Cases be performed. Every Law does immediately depend upon the Will of God." Gravesande, Mathematical Elements of Natural Philosophy, I, 2-3, 1726, quoted in CC Gillespie, Genesis and Geology, 1959.

 

[lucaspa]

Oh. Yeah, I see what you mean. Are you suggesting that preachers should also point out statements such as these? If so, I agree.

Hmm. I'm being much too subtle, it appears. I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it outright. Preachers are screwing up. They should learn more about Christian theology.

 

[Michali]

Hmm. I'm being much too subtle, it appears. I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it outright. Preachers are screwing up. They should learn more about Christian theology.

And therein lies the problem with Christianity. It is the people leading it.

 

[Jet Black]

And therein lies the problem with Christianity. It is the people leading it.

not just the leaders, since any christian who talks about it is a preacher of sorts. I think that it is unfair to blame the "leaders", since there are many good leaders. I think the problem is more general arrogance.

 

[Jet Black]

I would just like to add that this problem is not unique to christianity either.

 

[wblastyn]

not just the leaders, since any christian who talks about it is a preacher of sorts. I think that it is unfair to blame the "leaders", since there are many good leaders. I think the problem is more general arrogance.

But then Christians learn from their leaders, so if they are taught the wrong thing (god-ofthe-gaps) they will talk about it. But then you could argue that people shouldn't believe everything a preacher tells them and to "test the spirits" like they are told to do.

I was wondering about this while sitting bored in church, why does everyone just accept what the preacher tells them? Why don't they "test the spirits"? The preacher was talking about the end times and he was saying how the end is soon and everyone was agreeing, except the Apostles thought the end was soon lol. Then he went on to talk about wars and rumours of wars (there have always been wars, duh), increase in earthquakes (the equipment for monitoring earthquakes has just become more sensitive), etc.

 

[lucaspa]

I was wondering about this while sitting bored in church, why does everyone just accept what the preacher tells them? Why don't they "test the spirits"? The preacher was talking about the end times and he was saying how the end is soon and everyone was agreeing, except the Apostles thought the end was soon lol. Then he went on to talk about wars and rumours of wars (there have always been wars, duh), increase in earthquakes (the equipment for monitoring earthquakes has just become more sensitive), etc.

1. Many preachers don't want people to test for themselves? It would ruin their power over people. The professional creationists certainly don't encourage it.

2. Religion is ultimately about trust. This is partly true of science also, since you have to trust your sense impressions. But much less so in science since everyone can check the data for themselves. However, in religion it is more pronounced because many people do not have first-hand evidential experience of deity. So they trust people who claim to have such experience -- i.e preachers.

 

[Jet Black]

But then Christians learn from their leaders, so if they are taught the wrong thing (god-ofthe-gaps) they will talk about it. But then you could argue that people shouldn't believe everything a preacher tells them and to "test the spirits" like they are told to do.

oh their leaders have responsibility too, I cannot deny that at all, since if they say bad things, they get a black mark for false witness in the holy book.

I was wondering about this while sitting bored in church, why does everyone just accept what the preacher tells them? Why don't they "test the spirits"?

people like not having to think.

 

[Mike Flynn]

Hmm. I'm being much too subtle, it appears. I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying it outright. Preachers are screwing up. They should learn more about Christian theology.

Of course, this is not the case for every preacher. Some of them *do* get it right and do not adhere to 'God of Gaps' or the statement of faith for atheism. Certainly we can point to church leaders throughout history who seem to understand the scientific/theological issues. The Pastor at the church I attend makes it his business to address these kinds of issues. In fact, he *has* to because the 'tech-company' based community is very well educated (especially in science) and he wants to speak into their lives. There are also many conservative-minded Christians at the Church...and he walks the fine line very well. Good preachers *must* be good theologans, philosophers, and to some extent, educated in sciences IMHO.

The problem is that the Christians who enter into science and creation discussions generally have not been well-educated in theology OR science. It may be poor leadership in that they are not given good theology on this subject, it may be that thier church has typically ignored this kind of theology (which I have found is generally true, leaving Christians to speculate for themselves when the topic comes up).

 

[Mike Flynn]

And, for some, the loss of mystery has led to the loss of majesty. The more we know, the less we believe. Strange, don't you think? Knowledge of the workings shouldn't negate wonder. Knowledge should stir wonder. Who has more reason to worship than the astronomer who has seen the stars?...

He's right about this one. For *some* knowledge does negate wonder. For others, this is far from the case. The real question is, what's different about these kinds of people?

Ironically, the more we know, the less we worship. We are more impressed with our discovery of the light switch than with the one who invented electricity.. . .Rather than worship the Creator, we worship the creation (see Rom. 1:25).
No wonder there is no wonder. We've figured it all out.

He was doing well before these last two statements.

None of this is new, I'm afraid...people have been distracted from God by the world throughout history (and hence the theology of Adam and Eve). 'Factoring out' God through science is just the latest expression of an ancient problem. Our 'worship' of creation is also expressed in our material greediness, idolatry, self-centeredness, worship of body image, apathy towards other people's problems, wars, etc. All of these things take our eye off the ball.

Thus, our worship of creation (or science, or whatever) has *nothing* to do with a 'lack of wonder'. Rather, it has everything to do with the sinful nature.

When you connect with God through faith, you can certainly still see the wonder in creation...and figuring it out through good science actually enhances this experience. Knowledge doesn't take away our appreciation of the Creator...its faith (a lack of it) thats the culprit.

 

[lucaspa]

Of course, this is not the case for every preacher.

No, but for far too many. For instance, the Catholic Church has accepted evolution for some 80 years or more. It never got ensnared in the creationism folly. However, Kenneth Miller documents that his parish priest did talk god-of-the-gaps even tho the Catholic hierarchy knew better.

Certainly we can point to church leaders throughout history who seem to understand the scientific/theological issues.

Absolutely, but most ministers seem unaware of them. As I said, I can see no evidence that Lucado ever heard of Gravesande.

Good preachers *must* be good theologans, philosophers, and to some extent, educated in sciences IMHO.

And practical psychologists and have a calling. It may be that there simply are not enough people with all those qualifications to fill all the pulpits.

The problem is that the Christians who enter into science and creation discussions generally have not been well-educated in theology OR science.

Let me give you a different idea to chew on: professional creationists may not be well-educated in theology but the essential problem is that they have departed that theology for false-idol worship: their literal interpretation of the Bible. Therefore it doesn't matter if they are educated in Christian theology because they are already outside Christianity and worshipping their own god.

It may be poor leadership in that they are not given good theology on this subject, it may be that thier church has typically ignored this kind of theology (which I have found is generally true, leaving Christians to speculate for themselves when the topic comes up).

In conservative Christian circles, there does seem to be a lack of teaching of theology. This may be because there also seems to be a concerted effort to mix politics and theology and therefore associate their theology with certain political positions. For instance, there seems to be a connection between conservative Christians and tax cuts and cutting social programs. The tie-in seems very vague to me since Jesus specifically wanted to take care of other people but here we have Christians bent on cutting programs to take care of other people and keep their money for themselves. A study of theology might interfere with these political positions.

It may go back to the idea I posted above: these groups may have been led or drifted away from what is Christianity and are no longer a part of it despite what they say.