Got a tough one

[tapero]

Hi, Got a question;

Without any external teachings, if one can, no theologies, doctrines; or what's commonly taught or understood, i prefer to go by the bible alone most times.

so here i go.

God is infinte
There is no place He does not exist
Psalmist says it also, we know it to be true (where can I flee?)
He created all things.
I take those things he created is our world and universe; as he may well have created other universes not mentioned in the bible.
So, i'm saying all creation spoken of in the bible may be regarding us, the stars sun, planets, heavens all we know of and much we don't know of.

He still could have other creations elsewhere or he may have created all which will ever be created as per Genesis and then rested on the 6th day, and/or perhaps that applies to us only.

dunno..not too worried about that, not at all worried about that really..

There is no place He can't be
Further, He can't look on sin or such, don't recall exact words
in nt, believers are told he is in all and through all; but that scriputure is speaking of us. believers.

also, before we came to christ, we were sinners, still are, but now it's covered by the blood of Jesus.

but before Christ, God somehow called us, (many differnt ways people come to Christ)

so in our sinful state he called us.
okay I suppose he could do that without looking at our sin.
but the Holy Spirit is in all believers. (if you disagree, please ignore the question)

That is God in us,and we sin, but our sin is covered.
so maybe that answers how the Holy Spirit can be in us, as we do sin, but because it's covered God does not see our sin any longer, but Christ.

Since God is infinite and created all..and there is no place that God is not,..

that would mean hell somehow resides in God,
(if you dont believe there's a hell, ignore this question)

But he can't look at sin.

further, that would mean all non believers somehow reside in God,

Note he clothed adam and eve, and therefore must've hid his eyes with the first sacrifice to cover man.

recall he let one see his back

prior to that moment he walked in the garden, adam where are you?

They were hiding.

his angels will loose satan from the prison once he's put there for a time. So there is a place satan will be and I believe some demons are already there. this hell may be different than the hell non believers go to or will go to in the Judgement. Not sure and not concerned with that issue.

So without any external teachings if at all possible, can someone help me understand how God being infinite, yet God can't see sin? And how hell can reside in God? as well as non believers?

I write much in GA, and brought this up tonight. Thank God it got overlooked, as I hadn't thought it out enough.

I'm not worried tho, cause I would just say I can't comprehend it myself.

So thanks for your help here.

God bless, tapero

 

[JTLauder]

Half way into your message, you made a big jump from "God being everywhere and everything" to "Everyone and everything is in God." They are different concepts and you didn't explain where you made the assumption of "Everything (including hell) is in God".

God is infinite means that there is no end to him. You can interpret that to mean that he is everywhere. But that does not mean that everything is in God.

If you chose to believe in an all knowing benevolent God, that you can say that although God has the ability and power to encompass everyone and everything, he then so chooses to not embody undesirable qualities that would be counter to his benevolent character, therefore, he would shun away everyone and everythingthat would be an affront to his benevolent nature.

You can find many examples in the Bible where God has turned his back and rejected evil and sin and those who commit them.

 

[tapero]

Half way into your message, you made a big jump from "God being everywhere and everything" to "Everyone and everything is in God." They are different concepts and you didn't explain where you made the assumption of "Everything (including hell) is in God".

God is infinite means that there is no end to him. You can interpret that to mean that he is everywhere. But that does not mean that everything is in God.

If you chose to believe in an all knowing benevolent God, that you can say that although God has the ability and power to encompass everyone and everything, he then so chooses to not embody undesirable qualities that would be counter to his benevolent character, therefore, he would shun away everyone and everythingthat would be an affront to his benevolent nature.

Hi, I didn't jump anywhere but asked a question which is since God is infinite in being. That means there is no place he isn't. So wondering how anything can exist out of him, who is infinite.

First, i'm sure you didn't mean to say if i believed...in God a certain way. This is a bible study question.

There is no doubt about who God is and doesn't question God's character in any way at all.

If this question troubles people, please don't answer, as it's not meant to trouble anyone. This is not a debate, it's a question.

If someone thinks it does bring God's character into doubt, one has not understood the question.

It's a simple bible study question. but not simple of course, but only a bible study question.

where do non believers and hell exist?

in some realm God created but can not be in?

God is infinite!

There is no place that he isn't.

It's a biblestudy question and i understand there are some theories, but again, don't want to know any theories, just what from the bible we can figure out.

Since God is infinite, where do non believers and hell exist, since God is infinite? Is my question.

Thanks,
tapero

 

[Kristos]

You hamstrung yourself with the biblical only part.

Look into the apophetic approach to God.

 

[tapero]

You hamstrung yourself with the biblical only part.

Look into the apophetic approach to God.

Hi, do you mean elsewhere? not familiar with that term apophetic.

If so, i do not want any theories or theologies or doctrines from outside sources other than the bible. The 66 book bible.

Thanks for posting!

Thanks,
tapero

 

[AllForJesus75]

Greetings,


These are good questions and certainly merit meditation and prayerful study. What I do see you're doing, as most beginners in spiritual matters do, is you are trying to dive into the deeper things of God before the principle knowledge of Christ. I would care to address a few things you mentioned that it may edify you and help you to seek Jesus in serious study of His Holy Word:

also, before we came to christ, we were sinners, still are, but now it's covered by the blood of Jesus

In this statement you have different ideas that must be seperated and studied in order to correct the errors. Remember, as you practice proper judgment and slow down to examine the text more thouroughly, it will help in your progess a great deal (Proverbs 2:1-5). For example, you explain, "before we came to Christ we were sinners, still are..." Now if you mean as a Christian one is a sinner, this is incorrect. See Mark 2:17. What is the difference between a righteous man and a sinner? Are sinners covered by the blood of Jesus?

 

[tapero]

Greetings,


These are good questions and certainly merit meditation and prayerful study. What I do see you're doing, as most beginners in spiritual matters do, is you are trying to dive into the deeper things of God before the principle knowledge of Christ. I would care to address a few things you mentioned that it may edify you and help you to seek Jesus in serious study of His Holy Word:

also, before we came to christ, we were sinners, still are, but now it's covered by the blood of Jesus

In this statement you have different ideas that must be seperated and studied in order to correct the errors. Remember, as you practice proper judgment and slow down to examine the text more thouroughly, it will help in your progess a great deal (Proverbs 2:1-5). For example, you explain, "before we came to Christ we were sinners, still are..." Now if you mean as a Christian one is a sinner, this is incorrect. See Mark 2:17. What is the difference between a righteous man and a sinner? Are sinners covered by the blood of Jesus?

if someone asks a question and because of that question you feel they are new to faith you havne't been to many studies where questions are asked.

So, I've been seeking into spiritual matters quite a long time.

I am still a sinner, as is anyone else.

our sin is covered, we still do sin tho.

scripture is clear on this.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Further, Paul struggled greatly with sin, if you'll recall that passage.

But regardless of all this, that comes no where to having any relation to the question I posted.

 

[tapero]

maybe i need find in bible that God is infinite.

i know 2 places says in all thru all, one refers to believers only, not sure on other,

we know he is infinite in his being, wisdom etc

 

[BrotherDave]

Tapero.

As you say God is infinite and God does not see the sin of those He saves because their sin was paid for by Christ. A truly saved person was given a new soul in which he does not want to sin. However, the reason a saved individual may fall into sin is because he still has a sinful body that lust after sin (I Thess 2:4 ,Rom 8:10). This creates the conflict Paul describes (1 Cor 5:3, Rom 7:24, Eph 3:16, Peter 2:11) as the soul and body desire two different things. But, a saved person loves the Lord and sin should decrease in that person’s life after salvation.

God does see sin. In fact he tracks each person’s sin and they will have to answer for each one when they stand at the judgment throne on the last day. These non-believers exist all around us.

When we die, our eternal destiny is absolutely determined. If we are a child of God when we die, our soul leaves our body and in our soul we go to live and reign with Christ in heaven because we were given eternal life at the moment Christ saved us (John 3:3). We were given a brand-new resurrected soul (II Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1).

On the other hand, an unsaved person who dies has not received eternal life in his soul, so he cannot go into heaven when he dies (or ever), but his soul will separate from his body. His body will be put in the grave just as the believer’s body is put in the grave when he dies, but the unbeliever’s soul goes to a place of silence (Psalm 115, Rev. 20:5). He has no conscious existence until judgment day when he will stand as a whole personality at the judgment throne of God (John 5:28-29). The unsaved cannot go directly to hell when they die because they have not been officially judged yet; they will be judged on judgment day, the last day, when Christ returns (Revelation 3).

I hope this helps, not sure if I answered your question. In a “nutshell” non-believers exist everywhere we look. God sees everything. Hell is the condition of being under the wrath of God. Every unsaved person, in that sense, is in hell. That is where God finds us when He saves us. He finds us under the wrath of God and brings us out from under the wrath of God, that is, He brings us out of hell and into eternal life. On the last day, there will be an official arraignment, an official trial, of all the peoples of the world to discover if they have sinned. Of course, everyone who stands for trial will be found guilty of sin, and then they must endure the wrath of God forever.

In Christ’s service
David

 

[tapero]

Dear David,

Wow, Thank you very much for your thoughtful and well written reply.

During the study; I;ve been doing, it does appear God indeed can see sin, though the one scripture says different.

I agree with with all you wrote here.

My question though is: where does hell exist.

If God is everywhere, does it exist in him somehow, as right now, we have holding place for hell, not yet cast in to hell.

Lazarus and the beggar in my thnking is not a parable at all, but a truth about the holding place at that and this tme, and indeed the rich man was suffering.

regardless of whether one believes that to be literal or parable, let's just go to the end after the judgment.

Does hell exist in God, since God is infinite. So in other words somewhere within his being all exists that is?

That's my question..and yes, i have knocked non believers out of the quesiton as have learned God indeed can look on sin.

Thank you for your help. What do you think of the question if all resides in God, including hell?

Blessings,
tapero

Tapero.

As you say God is infinite and God does not see the sin of those He saves because their sin was paid for by Christ. A truly saved person was given a new soul in which he does not want to sin. However, the reason a saved individual may fall into sin is because he still has a sinful body that lust after sin (I Thess 2:4 ,Rom 8:10). This creates the conflict Paul describes (1 Cor 5:3, Rom 7:24, Eph 3:16, Peter 2:11) as the soul and body desire two different things. But, a saved person loves the Lord and sin should decrease in that person’s life after salvation.

God does see sin. In fact he tracks each person’s sin and they will have to answer for each one when they stand at the judgment throne on the last day. These non-believers exist all around us.

When we die, our eternal destiny is absolutely determined. If we are a child of God when we die, our soul leaves our body and in our soul we go to live and reign with Christ in heaven because we were given eternal life at the moment Christ saved us (John 3:3). We were given a brand-new resurrected soul (II Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1).

On the other hand, an unsaved person who dies has not received eternal life in his soul, so he cannot go into heaven when he dies (or ever), but his soul will separate from his body. His body will be put in the grave just as the believer’s body is put in the grave when he dies, but the unbeliever’s soul goes to a place of silence (Psalm 115, Rev. 20:5). He has no conscious existence until judgment day when he will stand as a whole personality at the judgment throne of God (John 5:28-29). The unsaved cannot go directly to hell when they die because they have not been officially judged yet; they will be judged on judgment day, the last day, when Christ returns (Revelation 3).

I hope this helps, not sure if I answered your question. In a “nutshell” non-believers exist everywhere we look. God sees everything. Hell is the condition of being under the wrath of God. Every unsaved person, in that sense, is in hell. That is where God finds us when He saves us. He finds us under the wrath of God and brings us out from under the wrath of God, that is, He brings us out of hell and into eternal life. On the last day, there will be an official arraignment, an official trial, of all the peoples of the world to discover if they have sinned. Of course, everyone who stands for trial will be found guilty of sin, and then they must endure the wrath of God forever.

In Christ’s service
David

 

[TigerBunny]

So without any external teachings if at all possible, can someone help me understand how God being infinite, yet God can't see sin? And how hell can reside in God? as well as non believers?

I write much in GA, and brought this up tonight. Thank God it got overlooked, as I hadn't thought it out enough.

I'm not worried tho, cause I would just say I can't comprehend it myself.

So thanks for your help here.

God bless, tapero

A few thoughts that are really the same:
1) God exists outside all things ( including Time ) so the thought that stuff is "inside" God or created out of God ( His essense ) is what I would call an error.
2) There is nothing outside His control or power.
3) If this is so then it really is needed to look at Scripture and make some distinctions of what His "presence" and "sight" mean based on His Word. If there is mystery left over...well...that's ok by me.