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Gospels are eyewitness accounts

HypnoToad

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*turn the volume down... the music is terrible.
The vast majority of historians accept that Jesus of Nazareth historically existed.

Even non-christian experts think the “Jesus never existed” camp is utterly ridiculous.

"These views are so extreme (that Jesus did not exist) and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology."
- Non-christian historian Bart Ehrman

"This view [that Jesus didn’t exist] is demonstrably false. It is fueled by a regrettable form of atheist prejudice, which holds all the main primary sources, and Christian people, in contempt. …. Most of its proponents are also extraordinarily incompetent."
- Non-christian professor of theology Maurice Casey

"Most atheists are historically illiterate”
- Atheist historian Tim O’Niell
 
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HitchSlap

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The vast majority of historians accept that Jesus of Nazareth historically existed.
Yep.

Even non-christian experts think the “Jesus never existed” camp is utterly ridiculous.
Some do. Some don't.

"These views are so extreme (that Jesus did not exist) and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology."
- Non-christian historian Bart Ehrman

"This view [that Jesus didn’t exist] is demonstrably false. It is fueled by a regrettable form of atheist prejudice, which holds all the main primary sources, and Christian people, in contempt. …. Most of its proponents are also extraordinarily incompetent."
- Non-christian professor of theology Maurice Casey

"Most atheists are historically illiterate”
- Atheist historian Tim O’Niell
I used to think the idea of not Jesus existing was utterly wrong too, until I read Carrier's OTHOJ, and then realized how utterly paltry the evidence is. My opinion at this point is there might have been a dude named Jesus, and over time his legend grew. That's about all you can say with any real certainty.

And Jesus is a 21 on the Rank-Raglin scale.
 
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HypnoToad

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I used to think the idea of not Jesus existing was utterly wrong too, until I read Carrier's OTHOJ, and then realized how utterly paltry the evidence is. My opinion at this point is there might have been a dude named Jesus, and over time his legend grew. That's about all you can say with any real certainty.
Critical Reviews On the Historicity of Jesus by Richard Carrier
Read the first review there by David Marshall. Carrier's book has serious issues.

And Jesus is a 21 on the Rank-Raglin scale.
And Abraham Lincoln is a 22, while Harry Potter is an 8. I guess we have it on good authority now that Harry Potter was most likely a historical person, while Abraham Lincoln is just a myth. Gosh, all those history books we gotta change now.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Yep.


Some do. Some don't.


I used to think the idea of not Jesus existing was utterly wrong too, until I read Carrier's OTHOJ, and then realized how utterly paltry the evidence is. My opinion at this point is there might have been a dude named Jesus, and over time his legend grew. That's about all you can say with any real certainty.

And Jesus is a 21 on the Rank-Raglin scale.
You know Carrier is utterly in the Academic wilderness? Even his Alma Mater has denied any further connection to him. His book failed peer review, and he is roundly castigated for misrepresenting sources and ignoring evidence that doesn't fit his pet theory.
He isn't even an 'expert' in the sources. His doctorate was on natural philosophy in the Principate, so he is pontificating on someone else's field. This would be the equivalent of trusting a Nuclear Physicist about the events in 19th century Leopoldsville in the Congo, in the teeth of opposition from actual experts on Colonialism. Carrier is silly indeed.

As to Lord Raglan's scale: it was arbitrarily derived, as he himself stated, and he denied it touches the historicity of any of the discussed heroes. This is an abuse of the system, which is actually about investigating the narratives of the people in question. For instance, Alexander the Great gets a 21 if taken from the Alexander Romances or the Persian Iskander/Daras narrative, vs a 6 if we use Arrian's account. It has to do with storytelling and legend, not really history as such.

As was pointed out above, a lot of recent history would also score highly and seems incredible, yet happened.
Think of Teddy Rooseveldt being shot and finishing his speech, or he and his son trekking through the Amazon and surviving against the odds. Heroic stuff, but if this was written about someone 2000 years ago, people would make big question marks around it. It is a silly double standard that we often trust fantastical accounts from recent times, but disavow ancient ones (on average). Just because something seems beyond belief, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Truth is stranger than fiction.

The whole point of Jesus' narrative is that this is a one-time event. Augustine of Hippo already makes the point that it seems miraculous, because it is. There is also a rich tradition of reading monomyth types as prefiguration of Christ, so it really does not argue against its historicity necessarily. In fact, one can argue it confirms it, as Myth is brought into real history, a True Myth as CS Lewis says.
 
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HitchSlap

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Critical Reviews On the Historicity of Jesus by Richard Carrier
Read the first review there by David Marshall. Carrier's book has serious issues.


And Abraham Lincoln is a 22, while Harry Potter is an 8. I guess we have it on good authority now that Harry Potter was most likely a historical person, while Abraham Lincoln is just a myth. Gosh, all those history books we gotta change now.
Lincoln was born of a virgin and his father was a king?

Lol
 
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RDKirk

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Unfortunately, the question is, Are the Gospels Eyewitness Accounts, not Was Jesus a Historical Figure.'

The question poses an invalid test of validity. It asserts a presumption that "eyewitness account" is the test of historical validity. If professional historians had to depend on eyewitness accounts, history would begin no earlier than 500 years ago.
 
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HitchSlap

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The question poses an invalid test of validity. It asserts a presumption that "eyewitness account" is the test of historical validity. If professional historians had to depend on eyewitness accounts, history would begin no earlier than 500 years ago.
So, the gospels are not eyewitness accounts?
 
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HypnoToad

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Lincoln was born of a virgin and his father was a king?

Lol
Yes, the facts have to be stretched to get Lincoln to fit, but the facts are also stretched to get Jesus to fit some of them as well (like Joseph being labeled an "uncrowned king" so Jesus can be called the son of a king - it's quite ridiculous).
 
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Steve Petersen

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Yes, the facts have to be stretched to get Lincoln to fit, but the facts are also stretched to get Jesus to fit some of them as well (like Joseph being labeled an "uncrowned king" so Jesus can be called the son of a king - it's quite ridiculous).

In the sense that he is a descendant of David, he was a potential king.
 
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mindlight

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The question poses an invalid test of validity. It asserts a presumption that "eyewitness account" is the test of historical validity. If professional historians had to depend on eyewitness accounts, history would begin no earlier than 500 years ago.

Surely that the apostles and companions of such are direct witnesses or quoting from direct witnesses adds to the credibility of the accounts. They spoke of things they had seen and heard not had passed down from centuries before as with Islam. Also what we know of these witnesses shows integrity and honesty and reliability as witnesses. All ,including Mark and Luke ,but excluding John, would die a martyrs death for the sake of the faith they professed.
 
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HypnoToad

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In the sense that he is a descendant of David, he was a potential king.
Exactly, it has to be stretched. The item on the RR scale is "son of a king". Joseph was a descendant, sure, but David's line was no longer ruling, hadn't been ruling for a long time by that point. Basically, anyone related to a king, no matter how far removed, apparently qualifies. That's just ridiculous.
 
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mindlight

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Unfortunately, the question is, Are the Gospels Eyewitness Accounts, not Was Jesus a Historical Figure.'

Both questions can be answered in the affirmative and have been in this thread.
 
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HitchSlap

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Yes, the facts have to be stretched to get Lincoln to fit, but the facts are also stretched to get Jesus to fit some of them as well (like Joseph being labeled an "uncrowned king" so Jesus can be called the son of a king - it's quite ridiculous).
"King David"
 
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Steve Petersen

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Exactly, it has to be stretched. The item on the RR scale is "son of a king". Joseph was a descendant, sure, but David's line was no longer ruling, hadn't been ruling for a long time by that point. Basically, anyone related to a king, no matter how far removed, apparently qualifies. That's just ridiculous.

However, remember that the crowd often called him Son of David.
 
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