Gospels are eyewitness accounts

[mindlight]

There is zero contemporary accounts of Jesus' life. Josephus' account is widely accepted as interpolation by a zealous scribe centuries later, and Tacitus' account is written decades after the death of Jesus. If Jesus had made half the impact you suggest on society, there should be hundreds of accounts of his existence... but there's not.

I did not cite the testimonium Flavius. There are other uncontroversial references to the early church in Josephus for example the reference to James the brother of Jesus and leader of the early church. But in fact there is also an Arabic version of the testimonium Flavius which is less flattering to Christ but describes His life. If you read the Antiquities of the Jews you will find lots of references. I think you underestimate the bitterness against Christ by those who opposed him and especially in Jerusalems intellectual elite . Basically by his miracles, popularity and denounciations of their hypocrisy he completely undermined them. Also a great many records were lost as a result of the Roman siege in 70AD

 

[mindlight]

Does that give you confidence that the gospels were true eyewitness accounts?

No my confidence is in Christ and in the scriptures that speak of Him. But a case can be argued here, as required, for those on the fringes who think wrongly that this is the only evidence that matters.

 

[HitchSlap]

I did not cite the testimonium Flavius. There are other uncontroversial references to the early church in Josephus for example the reference to James the brother of Jesus and leader of the early church. But in fact there is also an Arabic version of the testimonium Flavius which is less flattering to Christ but describes His life. If you read the Antiquities of the Jews you will find lots of references. I think you underestimate the bitterness against Christ by those who opposed him and especially in Jerusalems intellectual elite . Basically by his miracles, popularity and denounciations of their hypocrisy he completely undermined them. Also a great many records were lost as a result of the Roman siege in 70AD

*turn the volume down... the music is terrible.

 

[HitchSlap]

 

[ananda]

No my confidence is in Christ and in the scriptures that speak of Him. But a case can be argued here, as required, for those on the fringes who think wrongly that this is the only evidence that matters.

What's the basis for your confidence in Christ and your scriptures?

 

[mindlight]

What's the basis for your confidence in Christ and your scriptures?

Personal experience of Christ in my life.

Christ demonstrates and reveals the only God worth knowing or loving in this universe.

Scriptures answer all the major questions.

No other worldview remotely compares in terms of quality of message, Credibility, transformative power, intimacy of connection, providing real grounds for hope.

The relationships I have with other members of the church confirm and affirm Christ.

 

[HitchSlap]

 

[HitchSlap]

Personal experience of Christ in my life.

Christ demonstrates and reveals the only God worth knowing or loving in this universe.

Scriptures answer all the major questions.

No other worldview remotely compares in terms of quality of message, Credibility, transformative power, intimacy of connection, providing real grounds for hope.

The relationships I have with other members of the church confirm and affirm Christ.

This could be said by anyone of any faith. What sets yours apart from others?

 

[Barney2.0]

The gospels were never signed by their authors and the earliest copied manuscripts never had titles. They were given the titles several centuries later by early church leaders. This is not even debated by scholars.

Sorry, but that simply isn’t true, you never read anything I gave you. The original and earliest manuscripts were named after their respective authors.

(Codex Sinaiticus, “According to Luke”)

 

[HitchSlap]

Sorry, but that simply isn’t true, you never read anything I gave you. The original and earliest manuscripts were named after their respective authors.

Produce our earliest copy, and show where it is titled or signed.

 

[Barney2.0]

Produce our earliest copy, and show where it is titled or signed.

It is titled, it says in big Greek letters according to Luke.

 

[HitchSlap]

 

[mindlight]

*turn the volume down... the music is terrible.

The message is also wrong and has mainly been debunked

 

[HitchSlap]

Sorry, but that simply isn’t true, you never read anything I gave you. The original and earliest manuscripts were named after their respective authors.

View attachment 229893

(Codex Sinaiticus, “According to Luke”)

The CS is not an early copy of the gospel mss.

 

[Barney2.0]

I wouldn’t deem Bart Ehrman a reliable source, because here’s what he said about the New Testament:

“Ehrman and Metzger state in that book that we can have a high degree of confidence that we can reconstruct the original text of the New Testament, the text that is in the Bibles we use, because of the abundance of textual evidence we have to compare. The variations are largely minor and don’t obscure our ability to construct an accurate text. The 4th edition of this work was published in 2005 – the same year Ehrman published Misquoting Jesus, which relies on the same body of information and offers no new or different evidence to state the opposite conclusion.”

It would be very hard to do the that with an anonymously written text.

 

[mindlight]

Big assumption on the dating which basically ignores the possibility of prophecy.

The whole thing is false or uses truthes in a false framework. So you will have to focus on a specific if you want to discuss this. Please keep it relevant to the OP

 

[Barney2.0]

The CS is not an early copy of the gospel mss.

Yes, it is one of the earliest copies of the Gospels and since the Gospels haven’t really changed since then we can safely assume it to be reliable.

 

[ananda]

Personal experience of Christ in my life.

Christ demonstrates and reveals the only God worth knowing or loving in this universe.

Scriptures answer all the major questions.

No other worldview remotely compares in terms of quality of message, Credibility, transformative power, intimacy of connection, providing real grounds for hope.

The relationships I have with other members of the church confirm and affirm Christ.

*nods*

I can appreciate that sentiment.

I would say similarly about my personal experiences with the Buddha's message.

 

[HitchSlap]

Yes, it is one of the earliest copies of the Gospels and since the Gospel haven’t really changed since then we can safely assume it to be reliable.

CS is a fourth century work. Try again.

 

[mindlight]

Sorry, but that simply isn’t true, you never read anything I gave you. The original and earliest manuscripts were named after their respective authors.

View attachment 229893

(Codex Sinaiticus, “According to Luke”)

Codex Sinaticus is dated centuries after the formation of the gospels. My understanding is that the 4 gospels were in fact not signed by authors who did not want to draw any attention to themselves at the expense of Christ. John calls himself "the disciple Jesus loves" to point out he is a direct witness but without distracting from Christ. Apparently sacred history as with Joshua in the OT followed a similar format of anonymity. In fact it was the later false gospels like of Peter and Thomas where the signing started. So it seems the later church added a title page to distinguish from the false gospels and as a part of a formal process that would lead to the formation of the canon. When the evangelists wrote the gospels they were the only show in town so they hardly needed to claim an authority everybody already understood.