Good evidence

[anonymous1515]

For any atheists and/or agnostics out there:

You are likely a non-beleiver because you have not been presented with any good evidence for God's existence. As such, I wanted to ask you what sorts of evidence would be compelling enough to convince you. Does this sort of evidence even exist?

I'll start with some that I think would be convincing:

1) True prophecies recorded in holy scripture. Prophecies must not be overly vague, must not be self fulfilling, and must have actually come true.

2) Evidence that the prayers of certain religous groups are coming true at a rate that is significantly higher than that in the general population.

This one is kind of anecdotal, but I think it would interesting to investigate nonetheless:

3) If people who claimed to have religious experiences, regardless of their religious background, were all claiming to have seen/spoken to the same God. (I.e. Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. all having seen Jesus at the time of their experience.) It would be even more compelling if scores of people who had never encountered Christianity were reportedly having religious experiences in which they interacted with Jesus.

Any more thoughts?

 

[-Vincent-]

Any more thoughts?

Atheists suffer from sloth, and very little can be done for them. You must pray in order to recieve evidence of God's existence, and you must believe that he exists in order to pray.

So, its a catch 22...

 

[anonymous1515]

Atheists suffer from sloth, and very little can be done for them. You must pray in order to recieve evidence of God's existence, and you must believe that he exists in order to pray.

So, its a catch 22...

Hah. I suppose. Although, I could test whether people who believed he existed and were praying were having their prayers answered consistently. That doesn't require belief on my part, and could provide me with evidence.

But yeah... I'm a lazy unbelieving heathen.

 

[JGL53]

It just seems to me that a personal god is a myth. Ditto stuff like haunted houses, curses and spells, and fairies living in the bottom of the well in the garden, etc.

Is there really evidence to the contrary for any of this? If so, what would that be, exactly?

 

[Eudaimonist]

1) True prophecies recorded in holy scripture. Prophecies must not be overly vague, must not be self fulfilling, and must have actually come true.

Absolutely unconvincing so far, and I've heard quite a few "fulfilled prophecies" here at CF. It is too easy for prophesies to either be self-fulfilling prophesies, or simply likely to happen over so much time, and given the fuzzy way the human mind places events into categories. There is much room for self-deception unless one is well trained in critical thinking.

2) Evidence that the prayers of certain religous groups are coming true at a rate that is significantly higher than that in the general population.

Unconvincing, for similar reasons.

3) If people who claimed to have religious experiences, regardless of their religious background, were all claiming to have seen/spoken to the same God. (I.e. Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. all having seen Jesus at the time of their experience.) It would be even more compelling if scores of people who had never encountered Christianity were reportedly having religious experiences in which they interacted with Jesus.

This sort of evidence is hugely prone to abuse, since it would be difficult to prove that those people had never encountered Christianity, and that it was really Jesus they dreamt of.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[anonymous1515]

Absolutely unconvincing so far, and I've heard quite a few "fulfilled prophecies" here at CF. It is too easy for prophesies to either be self-fulfilling prophesies, or simply likely to happen over so much time, and given the fuzzy way the human mind places events into categories. There is much room for self-deception unless one is well trained in critical thinking.

I agree - I haven't seen anything remotely convincing as far as recorded prophecies go. Prophecies such as "dark times are ahead" or "the Kingdoms of Christ will...etc" are unconvincing. The former is overly vague, and the latter is self fulfilling (i.e. Christians who want to see the prophecy come true could easily make it come true).

The OP is more of a question about what it would take to convince you. Is there anything?

Unconvincing, for similar reasons.

Yes, after posting, I looked up some prayer studies conducted over the last 20 or 30 years. Nothing very convincing. For example, one study in the British Medical Journal (BMJ) even investigated retroactive intercessory prayer - in other words, they investigated whether praying for something that happened in the past would change it's outcome. Here is a direct quote from the paper:

"As we cannot assume a priori that time is linear, as we perceive it, (4) or that God is limited by a linear time, as we are, (5) the intervention was carried out 4-10 years after the patients' infection and hospitalisation. The hypothesis was that remote, retroactive intercessory prayer reduces mortality and shortens the length of stay in hospital and duration of fever." (Leibovici, L. 2001. Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial. (Beyond science?). British Medical Journal 323, pg. 1450.)

Something about this design seem fishy to you?

Two other studies I found showed no effect of intercessory prayer. Regardless of the findings of any of these studies, I think there are problems with prayer studies in general that make them hard to implement.

This sort of evidence is hugely prone to abuse, since it would be difficult to prove that those people had never encountered Christianity, and that it was really Jesus they dreamt of.

Good point.

 

[The Nihilist]

If one of them had a creation myth that turned out to be true, that would go a long way in convincing me

 

[-Vincent-]

Is there really evidence to the contrary for any of this? If so, what would that be, exactly?

Well, you have to get your own evidence, there simply in not any other way to know. And if your reality structure is narrow you will never know.

I lived in a little village some years ago, and during that time, some older members of the community had died. During funeral services in the graveyard outside the old church at some of these services a violent lightning storm would occur right over the church. These storms were very clearly anomolies. The storms were very violent and very, very small storm systems that could be seen from a distance, localized right above the churchyard.

It is human intention inline with God's will that causes this kind of storm, and human intention inline with God's will is a miracle...

 

[Eudaimonist]

The OP is more of a question about what it would take to convince you. Is there anything?

Sure, a demonstration of the creation of a universe. This would adequately show the existence of a Creator.

I might settle for a clear explanation of how such a feat could be accomplished.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JGL53]

Well, you have to get your own evidence, there simply in not any other way to know...

Then what use is organized religion? Would you agree with me that it is useless in terms of "experiencing god" since it is such a personal and individual matter? I.e., if there are, say, four billion adult humans extant, then should there be four billion separate "religions"?

And if your reality structure is narrow you will never know...

Well, yeah. But I think my "reality structure" is pretty broad - I'm pretty sure it can encompass all there is. I'm pretty broad-minded.

I lived in a little village some years ago, and during that time, some older members of the community had died. During funeral services in the graveyard outside the old church at some of these services a violent lightning storm would occur right over the church. These storms were very clearly anomalies. The storms were very violent and very, very small storm systems that could be seen from a distance, localized right above the churchyard.

It is human intention inline with God's will that causes this kind of storm, and human intention inline with God's will is a miracle...

That could all be true. Or it could all be delusions and a system of paranoia and egomania. Hard to say for sure - I am not a authority in either psychiatry or psychology.

I suppose the rule is "No harm, no foul". I.e., as long as you follow the general body of law we have evolved, e.g., refrain from running naked through traffic and so forth, then, hey, believe whatever you want. Happy is as happy does.

 

[The Nihilist]

Can we all please agree that a coincidence is different from a miracle, no matter how fortuitous?

 

[-Vincent-]

Can we all please agree that a coincidence is different from a miracle, no matter how fortuitous?

There is a reason for every coincidence, isn't that reasonable?

Anyway, in order to really know God, as Jesus said. You must become a son of God to know God as father. To be born of God is to be reborn of spirit, it is to be sent by God. To be sent from one place to another.

It is to travel completely mysteriously, disappearing at one location, and then reforming and descending on arrival.

It may take a mustard seed to move a mountain, but it takes all of your faith to be sent. Thats what love is, and like they say it only takes a moment to be loved... a whole life long...

In His yeshua,


When push came to shove, he said this...

"If God were your father, you all would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me!"

 

[The Nihilist]

There is a reason for every coincidence, isn't that reasonable?

No. To say otherwise is to pretend I didn't use the word coincidence.

 

[-Vincent-]

No. To say otherwise is to pretend I didn't use the word coincidence.

So coincidence violates the principle of cause and effect then?

 

[The Nihilist]

A reason is different from an efficient cause. You can't invent meaning using sophistry.

 

[-Vincent-]

A reason is different from an efficient cause. You can't invent meaning using sophistry.

Why are you making an effort to mix up, reason, efficient cause, meaning, and sophistry?

 

[The Nihilist]

Excuse me, I thought your intention was to conflate a reason for something with a cause for something. What difference does it make, then, if every coincidence has a cause?

 

[-Vincent-]

Excuse me, I thought your intention was to conflate a reason for something with a cause for something. What difference does it make, then, if every coincidence has a cause?

Well, you are the one who has turned your attention to coincidence, sophistry and what not.

I simply believe that we know the truth through experience, and must investigate reality in order to acually know it. You seem to be against actually knowing through experience. It seems that you are content with any kind of hypothesis that would debunk anything that you don't already know.

You really believe that you have complete knowledge of all reality don't you? You have all the principles; science has come to an end, there is nothing new to discover.


"Everything's up to date in Kansas City....They've gone about as fur as they can go..." from Oklahoma

 

[Isambard]

If an amputated limb grew back while X believers prayed.

Here's some other things that would make me believe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnjfxCp92pc

 

[The Nihilist]

Well, you are the one who has turned your attention to coincidence, sophistry and what not.

I simply believe that we know the truth through experience, and must investigate reality in order to acually know it. You seem to be against actually knowing through experience. It seems that you are content with any kind of hypothesis that would debunk anything that you don't already know.

You really believe that you have complete knowledge of all reality don't you? You have all the principles; science has come to an end, there is nothing new to discover.


"Everything's up to date in Kansas City....They've gone about as fur as they can go..." from Oklahoma

I truly have no idea what you're talking about. Science has absolutely not come to an end, and I do not know the meaning of the word truth. Is the truth the same thing as a fact?