Good books on egalitarian themes

[PloverWing]

Here, I'll start a new thread.

A few weeks ago, in a thread on femininity, @Zoii recommended the book The Natural Way of Things, by Charlotte Wood. I'd never heard of the book before, but I checked it out of the library and read it, and I found it very thought-provoking.

What are some of your favorite books that address themes of femininity, feminism, egalitarianism, whatever your preferred word is?

One of my favorite writers on this subject is Lois McMaster Bujold, who writes fantasy and science fiction. On feminist/egalitarian themes, I'd especially recommend Barrayar, Komarr, and A Civil Campaign, in her Vorkosigan universe; and Paladin of Souls, in her Chalion universe. The characters of Cordelia, Ekaterin, Kareen, Drou, and Ista all remind me of facets of my own life, as they struggle against the cultural expectations that surround them.

What are your favorite books and writers on this subject?

 

[Paidiske]

The ones that immediately come to mind for me are ones focussed on ministry.

Muriel Porter's Women in the Church: The Great Ordination Debate in Australia was the work that helped me accept women in ministry as valid and a good thing. Florence Li Tim Oi's Raindrops of My Life (the memoirs of the first woman ordained an Anglican priest), and Liz and Andrew Barr's Jobs for the Boys: Women Who Became Priests both had a big impact on me. Jobs for the Boys in particular, because in it, two journalists interviewed quite a number of very different women with very diverse ministries - from the woman who ran a retreat house to the Revd. Squadron Leader in the RAF - and it helped me to see that ministry was bigger and richer and held more possibility than just what I could see from observing my own vicar.

There are probably more, but those are the first which come to mind!

 

[Zoii]

Here, I'll start a new thread.

A few weeks ago, in a thread on femininity, @Zoii recommended the book The Natural Way of Things, by Charlotte Wood. I'd never heard of the book before, but I checked it out of the library and read it, and I found it very thought-provoking.

What are some of your favorite books that address themes of femininity, feminism, egalitarianism, whatever your preferred word is?

One of my favorite writers on this subject is Lois McMaster Bujold, who writes fantasy and science fiction. On feminist/egalitarian themes, I'd especially recommend Barrayar, Komarr, and A Civil Campaign, in her Vorkosigan universe; and Paladin of Souls, in her Chalion universe. The characters of Cordelia, Ekaterin, Kareen, Drou, and Ista all remind me of facets of my own life, as they struggle against the cultural expectations that surround them.

What are your favorite books and writers on this subject?

Wow Im so flattered that you read the book I recommended and pleased you liked it

 

[Zoii]

The handmaids tale by Margaret Atwood challenges the religious, patriarchal and societal abuses of women in a dystopian setting

Its also been made into a mini series

 

[PloverWing]

I haven't seen the miniseries, but I've read the book. I like The Handmaid's Tale quite a bit; there are important truths in it.

 

[Paidiske]

I had to study it for year twelve English. The power of Atwood's prose has stayed with me ever since!

 

[Zoii]

I haven't seen the miniseries, but I've read the book. I like The Handmaid's Tale quite a bit; there are important truths in it.

What were the truths as you saw it

 

[Paidiske]

What struck me at the time - I haven't re-read it for a long time, so I might evaluate it differently now - was the potential for religion to go wrong, and how very bad it can be when it does.

I know that sounds incredibly obvious, but I had been a very sheltered 17-year-old (and had never been a church-goer), so getting my head around that was actually a big thing.

Interestingly the feminist themes more or less went over my head. I was completely ignorant of feminism at that point!

 

[Zoii]

I know that sounds incredibly obvious, but I had been a very sheltered 17-year-old (and had never been a church-goer), so getting my head around that was actually a big thing.

Interestingly the feminist themes more or less went over my head. I was completely ignorant of feminism at that point!

Youre making up for it now
Theres a part early in the book where a man is paraded in front of the handmaids who raped a maid and was sentenced to death. The maids were asked to gather round him and on the signal they were permitted to do whatever they wanted to him. They responded with visciousness and outright vengeance. Ive thought a lot about this ... what did it mean for you?

 

[Paidiske]

As I recall that scene, one of the handmaids fights hard to get to the front and knock him out... and later says that this is because the charges are false, and in fact he was working against the regime? I remember being more puzzled by that question - guilt, innocence, ambiguity - than the question of his execution.

As I think about it now - and I don't have a copy of the book any more, so I'm going from my memory of it - I'd want to explore questions of violence, anger, control and power. Does everyone need an emotional valve if they're to endure oppression? What does a healthy such valve look like? Can this kind of violence ever be justified? And so on.

 

[PloverWing]

What were the truths as you saw it

I read the book while I was in grad school, 20+ years ago, so some of the details have faded from my memory. It's probably time for me to check it out of the library and reread it, now that I've had the experience of living as an adult feminist woman for a couple of decades. I'll get back to you after my trip to the library...

But two items from the book have stuck with me and keep coming back to me on various occasions:

1) The names for the handmaids, "Offred", "Ofwarren", etc. That's so much like how we traditionally become "and Mrs" when we marry: Jane Jones marries John Smith and they become "Mr and Mrs John Smith". The disappearance of our names stands in for so many ways that wives were traditionally expected to disappear. Jane, in herself, is an engineer or a teacher or an artist or whatever; but then she marries and becomes the assistant to her husband, becomes defined by what she is in relation to her husband.

(I didn't change my name when I got married, for this collection of reasons. I won't judge women who choose differently -- we're all making our way through a difficult muddle of cultural expectations, and I appreciate that there's a simplicity to following the cultural norm -- but it was an important symbolic point for me when I got married.)

2) When we get a glimpse of Offred's backstory, there's a description of how things came apart to reach the dystopia that is the book's present-day. One item mentioned is that women's finances were put in the hands of their husbands -- the husband would own the property for both husband and wife. Offred's husband says that it won't be so bad; he loves her and will manage the resources responsibly for them both. And, yes, he does, as long as he can. And, yes, a loving, responsible husband could do that, and it could work out. I have a joint checking account with my husband, and we own our house jointly, and we both write checks on our joint account, and we trust each other financially and are both trustworthy. And yet... And yet, in a system where a woman cannot own her own property, there is potential for abuse, and no recourse for her if things go badly.

This is not too far into fantasyland. American laws have changed since I was born, but back when I was a teenager, the credit history of a married couple (the history of all the bills they've paid on time, the loans they've taken out and correctly repaid, etc) were assumed to belong to the husband alone. A woman who was widowed in her 50s, say, would (of course) find herself suddenly having to provide for her own finances, but with no credit history, as though she were 18 again. Can she get a home improvement loan, or a credit card? Maybe not.

 

[Zoii]

I read the book while I was in grad school, 20+ years ago, so some of the details have faded from my memory. It's probably time for me to check it out of the library and reread it, now that I've had the experience of living as an adult feminist woman for a couple of decades. I'll get back to you after my trip to the library...

But two items from the book have stuck with me and keep coming back to me on various occasions:

1) The names for the handmaids, "Offred", "Ofwarren", etc. That's so much like how we traditionally become "and Mrs" when we marry: Jane Jones marries John Smith and they become "Mr and Mrs John Smith". The disappearance of our names stands in for so many ways that wives were traditionally expected to disappear. Jane, in herself, is an engineer or a teacher or an artist or whatever; but then she marries and becomes the assistant to her husband, becomes defined by what she is in relation to her husband.

(I didn't change my name when I got married, for this collection of reasons. I won't judge women who choose differently -- we're all making our way through a difficult muddle of cultural expectations, and I appreciate that there's a simplicity to following the cultural norm -- but it was an important symbolic point for me when I got married.)

2) When we get a glimpse of Offred's backstory, there's a description of how things came apart to reach the dystopia that is the book's present-day. One item mentioned is that women's finances were put in the hands of their husbands -- the husband would own the property for both husband and wife. Offred's husband says that it won't be so bad; he loves her and will manage the resources responsibly for them both. And, yes, he does, as long as he can. And, yes, a loving, responsible husband could do that, and it could work out. I have a joint checking account with my husband, and we own our house jointly, and we both write checks on our joint account, and we trust each other financially and are both trustworthy. And yet... And yet, in a system where a woman cannot own her own property, there is potential for abuse, and no recourse for her if things go badly.

This is not too far into fantasyland. American laws have changed since I was born, but back when I was a teenager, the credit history of a married couple (the history of all the bills they've paid on time, the loans they've taken out and correctly repaid, etc) were assumed to belong to the husband alone. A woman who was widowed in her 50s, say, would (of course) find herself suddenly having to provide for her own finances, but with no credit history, as though she were 18 again. Can she get a home improvement loan, or a credit card? Maybe not.

My mum is a psychotherapist and she sees a lot of women who have been through terrible things domestically. She particularly mentions how control of women is one of the main issues...control of finances totally disempowers women...control of movements so that women are too scared to not be where the husband expects them to be.... and the routines are prescribed by the husband including who she may or may not see.

This book was in my highschool but for some reason I didnt read it n chose another..... I heard about it through the mini series so Im just ploughing through the book now.

Theres a scene I mentioned to @Paidiske. A man who supposedly raped a maid and was sentenced to death and the maids were told they could do what they wanted to him...... they tore him apart. This scene is playing on my mind... how women in abusive or suppressed situations can be manipulated to be suppressors themselves... or how they can harbour a vengeance.... I see it in myself.

Theres lots of layers in this book to talk about and I hope you and @Paidiske would be willing to talk more about it

 

[Paidiske]

I'm very happy to talk about it more, although I may need to get hold of a copy to do the discussion justice!

 

[PloverWing]

I'm going to reread the book, and then I'll be able to have a better discussion.

I remember the execution scene, but at the time I just saw it as one more awful thing in the string of awful things that happens. I didn't appreciate how it could be an outlet for the violent emotions that arise when one is oppressed. Your discussion of it is one reason I want to reread the book now; in the last couple of decades, I've had more first-hand experiences of oppression, and I suspect I'll have a deeper emotional connection this time around.

 

[Paidiske]

I think it might be similar for me, PloverWing. For one thing, I'm a mother now, and I suspect Offred's memories and wonderings about her daughter will haunt me much more than they did back then.

 

[Zoii]

@PloverWing in the Natural Way of Things the main character becomes strong, primal and distant. Another of the girls collects mushrooms and plots the death of her male captor. The others largely just aim to survive in the conditions forced on them..... I am all of those n none

 

[PloverWing]

@PloverWing in the Natural Way of Things the main character becomes strong, primal and distant. Another of the girls collects mushrooms and plots the death of her male captor. The others largely just aim to survive in the conditions forced on them..... I am all of those n none

I've been mulling it over in the last couple of days, and I don't know which character I'm most like. I definitely admire the two main characters, the way they take their fates into their own hands, and, in their two different styles, find a way to fight the situation they're in. But I don't know, if I'm being honest, if I'd have the strength to do what they did.

Hunting, in particular, would be very difficult for me. (Interesting that I find hunting more difficult than mushroom experiments.) Maybe I'd have to find my own, different, way to fight.

 

[Zoii]

I've been mulling it over in the last couple of days, and I don't know which character I'm most like. I definitely admire the two main characters, the way they take their fates into their own hands, and, in their two different styles, find a way to fight the situation they're in. But I don't know, if I'm being honest, if I'd have the strength to do what they did.

Hunting, in particular, would be very difficult for me. (Interesting that I find hunting more difficult than mushroom experiments.) Maybe I'd have to find my own, different, way to fight.

What do you think it is that defines you as female apart from your anatomy. You dont need to state it here because Im sure its personal, but for me thats what struck me most about The Natural Way of Things - It forced me to ask that question of myself. It even forced me to ask what exactly does it mean saying your female (apart of the anatomical)

 

[PloverWing]

I think of my inner self as gender-neutral. Being female is chiefly about the body I live in.

But: I've also been socialized female. From infancy, boys/men and girls/women are treated differently, both in overt ways and in more subtle ways. We get different messages about which emotions we should express and which we should suppress. We get different messages about life paths: is a given career okay to choose, or not? is it okay to be a stay-at-home parent? what would a successful life look like, for me? and so on. We often get different training in keeping track of the emotions of other people and doing what's necessary to care for other people emotionally.

The cumulative effect of all that social and emotional training has shaped me. Of course it has. So all of that is also part of my experience of being female.

I'll add this: I've had conversations with a couple of female friends about gender identity in the last couple of years. One of my best friends feels like she's female inside -- not just her body or her socialization, but her internal identity. Another of my best friends feels like me, gender-neutral inside. So I've learned that this is something that varies among people.

 

[PloverWing]

Some follow-up thoughts.

I'm going to set aside the socialization issues for the moment, because that's so culturally dependent, and focus on what really is female about me. I still think being female, for me, is about my body, but bodies matter; we aren't just disembodied spirits. So, how does it matter that I live in a female body?

1) I experience sexuality as a straight woman. This is a different experience from that of a straight man, or a gay or bisexual person. It affects the bedroom, obviously, but also other aspects of life. It affects the shape of my family: I married a man, and we had children together. It also affects how I relate to men: I'm professional and courteous to the people around me, of course, but there's that little bit of awareness in the back of my head that this is a person of the category that I'm attracted to. Maybe the way to say it is that I impose a little extra emotional distance with the men at work/school/church that's not there when I relate to women.

2) I carried my children inside my body. Before anyone else got to see my children, I could feel them moving. That's a different experience than my husband had. He loves the children and is a great father, but I got to "meet" the children first.

3) I train in martial arts, and in the dojo I'm very aware that I'm shorter and have shorter arms, narrower shoulders, and wider hips than my adult male counterparts. Movements that are easy for the men are hard for me, and vice versa. It affects how I train, and how I fight.

(That third one isn't usually on the "feminine" list, is it? Being female means that I'm a wife, I'm a mother, and I have to move quickly when I spar. But, really, those are the three most physical things that I do in my life that are different from men.)

Those are the things that came to mind as I reflected this afternoon. There are also all the social/cultural experiences that we have as women, and that Atwood and Wood write so eloquently about, but I think many of those are about what other people do to us and how they see us, rather than what we are in ourselves.