Good books on egalitarian themes

Zoii

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You have a point... your body does influence your identity. I was speaking to my mother about it and she recognized that genetically we are programmed to reproduce and that has a major impact on socialization patterns. It effects our prestige within the human clan. Being young n fertile is given special pride of place in the clan.... being older, less fertile, results in a diminished positive image in the human clan.

So what about me. Im not attracted to anyone.... well mayb thats not accurate.... im drawn to gentleness and quirkyness and arty people. Since Im not into guys or girls I find it hard sometimes to define myself. Others dont tho... im the petite quiet arty one who gets fired up about stuff. Thats not female tho.... people describe me as elfin n feminine, but thats my body.... which kinda drags back to your point @PloverWing n still leaves me thinking about what I am as female.
 
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Paidiske

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There's something I'd find it hard to put into words about clothing, too. That's about being in a female body, and in my case, an overweight female body. This overlaps with socialisation, because I can't sew, so I rely on what other people make available for me to buy and wear; but my experience of trying to find "appropriate" clothes for a range of situations seems radically different from, say, my husband's.
 
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JRichard68

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This thread has been on my mind for a few days now. I've been trying to think of a specific book that was just excellent, but it still hasn't come to me. Maybe next week...

In the mean-time, there's this:

As Christ Submits to the Church: A Biblical Understanding of Leadership and Mutual Submission - Alan. G. Padgett

which presents Christ in submission to the church, and demonstrates how that submission was taught in the Pastoral epistles, and carried out in the early church, relating to the culture of the time.

Another author who is quite good is "Craig Keener". He's the editor of an excellent New testament commentary (IVP Press, I think) that goes to great lengths to dig into culture, context, and reason behind scriptural teaching. I quite appreciate his teaching on Ephesians 5, which notes the mutual submission aspect of the passage; and that Paul was actually not affirming the cultural hierarchical model, but continuing the discussion of mutual submission, which introduced something new to the culture of the time.
 
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PloverWing

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I'm rereading The Handmaid's Tale now. I am indeed finding more in it than I found on first reading.

A couple of days ago, I was reading along and ran into this passage that suddenly took my breath away:

[R]emember that forgiveness too is a power. To beg for it is a power, and to withhold or bestow it is a power, perhaps the greatest.

Maybe none of this is about control. Maybe it isn't really about who can own whom, who can do what to whom and get away with it, even as far as death. Maybe it isn't about who can sit and who has to kneel or stand or lie down, legs spread open. Maybe it's all about who can do what to whom and be forgiven for it. Never tell me it amounts to the same thing.

I thought of all the women who report assault or harassment and are told by their bosses or pastors or teachers that It's No Big Deal, and you wouldn't want to ruin someone's career, would you? I thought of your story too, @Zoii , of going to a pastor and not being heard.
 
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Zoii

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I'm rereading The Handmaid's Tale now. I am indeed finding more in it than I found on first reading.

A couple of days ago, I was reading along and ran into this passage that suddenly took my breath away:



I thought of all the women who report assault or harassment and are told by their bosses or pastors or teachers that It's No Big Deal, and you wouldn't want to ruin someone's career, would you? I thought of your story too, @Zoii , of going to a pastor and not being heard.
Yet her thoughts that revile the humility demanded of her would be called radical feminism and often is in CF.

The thing was in my case, That I wanted something and didnt get it... I wanted a message of total allegiance and support confirming I had been abhorrently wronged. What I got was vague... hes a christian n is repentant (yh I bet he is now hes caught with a positive DNA test), I need to forgive and pray to god for my own forgiveness... mayb he meant something other than how I interpreted it but... it set off a chain reaction inside me with the main fuel being outrage on many fronts.
 
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Zoii

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What support do you have to work through the aftermath of that now, Zoii?
I have had three and a half years working on it. I saw a counselor from the outset and it was her that started me keeping a journal. I am so grateful to her for her patience and tolerance of the anger I had.

I do a lot of art and I draw a lot. I collage in my journal and I also write poems.
When I was 14 I started a going to group with other girls and that went on for about 6 months.
And occasionally I talk to a pastor who sees me sometimes sitting in the empty church. Sometimes I ask questions, but sometimes I just sit with her and we say nothing and i like that.

And I have my mum n dad. My story is complex ... but Im doing pretty good.
 
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Dave-W

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And I have my mum n dad. My story is complex ... but Im doing pretty good.
I am glad to hear you are getting that support. It is so important.

My wife never got any of that, as she was scared to death to let anyone know. (threats of violence) I was the first person she told; and that was after we had been married a couple of months.

Her abuse came continuously for about 4 years (age 8-12) and 2-3 times a week. It did a LOT of damage.
 
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Dave-W

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She particularly mentions how control of women is one of the main issues...control of finances totally disempowers women...control of movements so that women are too scared to not be where the husband expects them to be.... and the routines are prescribed by the husband including who she may or may not see.
Wow. Sounds a lot like my dad ..... and how he treated my mom (and his later 2 wives).
 
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PloverWing

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Yet her thoughts that revile the humility demanded of her would be called radical feminism and often is in CF.
Yes, it's disturbing to watch that when it happens on CF.

The Handmaid's Tale expresses very well some of the complicated relationships between misogyny and religion. I want to explore some of this with you and Paidiske and the other readers of the Egalitarian Christians forum, once I finish reading the book.
 
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Dave-W

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nd I have my mum n dad.
What have your parents done?

When something (much less serious than your situation) happened to my youngest daughter (she was 18 at the time) I was in the face of the congregational leadership until they had the guy confess his sin in front of the congregation. The congregation paid for counseling for my daughter (and the guy and his wife). Had she been under 18 I would have pursued legal action against him as well. But that door was legally closed.
 
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Zoii

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What have your parents done?

When something (much less serious than your situation) happened to my youngest daughter (she was 18 at the time) I was in the face of the congregational leadership until they had the guy confess his sin in front of the congregation. The congregation paid for counseling for my daughter (and the guy and his wife). Had she been under 18 I would have pursued legal action against him as well. But that door was legally closed.
You are aware of a little Dave but there's a lot more. My parents did everything and nothing. By that I mean they were always there, consistent, reliable, unquestionably supportive. They have endured a lot because of me.
 
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Dave-W

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You are aware of a little Dave but there's a lot more. My parents did everything and nothing. By that I mean they were always there, consistent, reliable, unquestionably supportive. They have endured a lot because of me.
Parents always have to endure stuff because of their children. It is part of the job description. And I am glad for you as to their absolute support.

But, given your age, I am surprised they did not pursue legal action. Not in a revenge type of attitude; but more of the sense of keeping that [deleted] from victimizing others.

Anyone can say they have repented. Most do not even understand what that involves. And in such cases I think the words of John the Immerser are completely appropriate:

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,​
 
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Zoii

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Parents always have to endure stuff because of their children. It is part of the job description. And I am glad for you as to their absolute support.

But, given your age, I am surprised they did not pursue legal action. Not in a revenge type of attitude; but more of the sense of keeping that [deleted] from victimizing others.
They had no need to pursue it. It was a police matter and sorted in the criminal courts
 
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Dave-W

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They had no need to pursue it. It was a police matter and sorted in the criminal courts
OK - he did end up in the legal system. That is good.
 
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PloverWing

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I've finished rereading The Handmaid's Tale. Thanks, Zoii, for encouraging me to go back to this story.

In the last few years, I've read several books by Muslim authors about the violent misogynist craziness that's going on in some of the Islamic countries, and some of the elements of The Handmaid's Tale reminded me of those books. In A Thousand Splendid Suns, which takes place in Taliban-governed Afghanistan, at one point in the story a woman tries to escape from her situation; there's a similar escape scene in The Handmaid's Tale, with similar psychological elements at play in the community that surrounds the escaping women. And the red dresses with white wings that the handmaids wear reminded me of the required full-body-covering garment that Qanta Ahmed describes in In the Land of Invisible Women, a book describing her year as a a visiting physician in Saudi Arabia.

One of the points made in these other books is one that I see playing out in The Handmaid's Tale also: If you are a person of a certain mindset, if you despise women because you enjoy exercising power over people and women are an easy target, or because you've been crushed your whole life and now it's your turn to have power over somebody else, or because you blame women for every sexual failing you've ever had, or just because you enjoy cruelty -- if you are this kind of person, and you have at hand the tools of a religion, then you may well pick up those religious tools and use them as a way to wield power over women. All three of the Abrahamic faiths call people to act with justice and compassion, but the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament, and the Qur'an all contain individual sentences that can used as weapons against women. If you have a misogynistic mindset, you can set aside the great principles of these religions and take up the weapon-sentences instead. We see this in the distorted Christianity of Gideon, much as we see it in the distorted Islam of Saudi Arabia or the Taliban.

There are also those who listen to the isolated weapon-sentences and truly believe that by following them, they are following Christianity, or Islam. The Handmaid's Tale mentions the occasional people who are "true believers". This is a complicated situation, and probably different from the misogynists who are using religion as an excuse.

I don't see a genuine Gideon-like situation emerging in North America at present. But The Handmaid's Tale takes some of the attitudes and dangers that we face in subtle ways, and writes them in exaggeratedly large letters so that they're easy to see: the reduction of women to their reproductive and/or domestic roles; the power relationship between the Commander and the women he controls; the temptation to buy into the system, the way the Aunts do, in order to get a little power for yourself; the way the Commander sort of sees Offred, but not really; and the difficulty of escaping an oppressive situation if everyone around you thinks the oppression should continue.

I still haven't seen the miniseries, because I don't have a subscription to Hulu, but I have wondered how the miniseries presents the many thoughts that go on in Offred's head. Many of the book's insights happen in what Offred is thinking. She can't just say all that out loud to a friend (as often happens in movies and TV shows), because it's dangerous to talk to people in Gideon. Do they use voiceovers, or flashbacks, or something like that?
 
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Zoii

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I've finished rereading The Handmaid's Tale. Thanks, Zoii, for encouraging me to go back to this story.

In the last few years, I've read several books by Muslim authors about the violent misogynist craziness that's going on in some of the Islamic countries, and some of the elements of The Handmaid's Tale reminded me of those books. In A Thousand Splendid Suns, which takes place in Taliban-governed Afghanistan, at one point in the story a woman tries to escape from her situation; there's a similar escape scene in The Handmaid's Tale, with similar psychological elements at play in the community that surrounds the escaping women. And the red dresses with white wings that the handmaids wear reminded me of the required full-body-covering garment that Qanta Ahmed describes in In the Land of Invisible Women, a book describing her year as a a visiting physician in Saudi Arabia.

One of the points made in these other books is one that I see playing out in The Handmaid's Tale also: If you are a person of a certain mindset, if you despise women because you enjoy exercising power over people and women are an easy target, or because you've been crushed your whole life and now it's your turn to have power over somebody else, or because you blame women for every sexual failing you've ever had, or just because you enjoy cruelty -- if you are this kind of person, and you have at hand the tools of a religion, then you may well pick up those religious tools and use them as a way to wield power over women. All three of the Abrahamic faiths call people to act with justice and compassion, but the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament, and the Qur'an all contain individual sentences that can used as weapons against women. If you have a misogynistic mindset, you can set aside the great principles of these religions and take up the weapon-sentences instead. We see this in the distorted Christianity of Gideon, much as we see it in the distorted Islam of Saudi Arabia or the Taliban.

There are also those who listen to the isolated weapon-sentences and truly believe that by following them, they are following Christianity, or Islam. The Handmaid's Tale mentions the occasional people who are "true believers". This is a complicated situation, and probably different from the misogynists who are using religion as an excuse.

I don't see a genuine Gideon-like situation emerging in North America at present. But The Handmaid's Tale takes some of the attitudes and dangers that we face in subtle ways, and writes them in exaggeratedly large letters so that they're easy to see: the reduction of women to their reproductive and/or domestic roles; the power relationship between the Commander and the women he controls; the temptation to buy into the system, the way the Aunts do, in order to get a little power for yourself; the way the Commander sort of sees Offred, but not really; and the difficulty of escaping an oppressive situation if everyone around you thinks the oppression should continue.

I still haven't seen the miniseries, because I don't have a subscription to Hulu, but I have wondered how the miniseries presents the many thoughts that go on in Offred's head. Many of the book's insights happen in what Offred is thinking. She can't just say all that out loud to a friend (as often happens in movies and TV shows), because it's dangerous to talk to people in Gideon. Do they use voiceovers, or flashbacks, or something like that?
Theres a lot I want to say about this...I might do it in stages:

The Aunts. It was easy to see them as complicit in a crime. To see them as grabbing power in an environment where women having any power was to be prized. To enjoy in the vindictiveness and cruelty that was the product or rather symptom, of a framework which was about patriarchy. Sometimes it was hard to tell whether in fact religion was the actual framework that promulgated patriarchy, or whether patriarchy devised the religious framework. In the main there was no real love for the religious law by those who yielded ultimate power as they were the principal abusers of those religious laws by dipping into alcoholism, and sexual affairs. Religion justified the product of slavery, and women were the slaves. They were the oppressed, though truly everyone was oppressed in that environment.

So the Aunts - you see at points where the Aunts loved the women under their control. They cared for them. They truly believed in their objective and the paradigm driving it all.I didn't necessarily see that as corrupt. I saw it more as a belief in what they were indoctrinated with... yet the cruelty they displayed... Ive read and heard about this in other ways. My great great grandmother had a child after she was raped as a teen. The baby when born and was immediately taken from her. When I asked mum why that happened she said the women of her church would have shunned her and it would have been hard for her to live in the small town if they knew. My parallel here is that women of that day had religious beliefs that firmly entrenched FEMALE-DIRTY, men in charge, SEXUAL ASSAULT - womens problem... to be continued after I think more on this
 
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