Going "Undercover" as a "Mormon" question for non LDS christians

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
As i said earlier, some details are missing out and some are slightly changed for privacy concerns. if one of the guys at my chappel happens to come across with this i dont want him saying "wait... the new guy had the exact same story! he must be the undercover guy!" as my country is already visible, so that might be muddying up the story, and i'm sorry for it, but i wont stop doing so for privacy.

There aren't any LDS from Argentina on the forum, so no worries about that.
When you're switching up things so much that your story makes sense, it really hampers my ability to understand/communicate here. It gives a "I'm uncredible" vibe.

Undercover_mormon said:
First day, all goes well, and I'm approached by 2 gals from the US, they offered me to be visited by missonaries and sit down for a talk

So you WERE offered to talk with the missionaries.

Undercover_mormon said:
4 months after that, they dropped that round about language and by the time i was leaving.

And again offered.

Undercover_mormon said:
Thats the short story, I then leave, my best friend tells me my gf is spewing bs about me cheating and how my gf did actually cheat, later we break up, and even later my "best friend" turn and denies such claims once i finally leave the church for good and my "best friend" in turn gets baptized into the church (she entered the church about 4 months before), also, as i begun leaving and finally left for good, "friends" started not replying to messeges and finally ignorning me.
.

Honestly I suspect that there's something else going on here. Someone leaving the church doesn't equate to saying "they cheated on me".

Undercover_mormon said:
if you wanna know a little bit more detail, PM me and i can provide some, but the gist is, I experienced that way of hiding some stuff from the outsider at first, and while the lessons by the missonaries could have gotten me up to speed fairly quickly, i dont think any church should hide its beliefs and let a few do all the work, I also experienced the shunning afterwards

You just hid a bunch of stuff from us, including flat out lying. And advocating more lying. And then complain that people are "hiding" things when you skipped out on the many resources offer to you.

Do you see how you're sounding here?

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Ironhold said:
If I was to take the material I was given for that one 500-level finance course and drop it in the lap of someone who had never had a finance class before, would I be able to reasonably expect that they could complete everything I personally would have been required to do?

Ask yourself that, and you'll have your answer.

Straw man arguement... you can very easily explain exaltation with no previous knowledge... let me demostrate

"Here in the Church of Latter day Saints, we believe that all humans can become gods of their own planet through the atonement of Jesus christ and the Ordinances of the church"
which actuallty is very close to one of your articles of faith!

Now, lets try with the baptism for the dead
"Here in the Church of Latter day Saints, we believe that all humans, if they happened to not have accepted christ and done everything required, can still be exhalted, as while they are in a second life of sorts, which is called the Spirit World, we can go ahead and make a baptism in their name and so on and so forth, allowing those poor people to accept such baptism and move on to exaltation"

well... it took almost 8 months, for those almost 6 lines to be clearly told to me

instead i got for example "When you fullfill all the laws and ordinances and live according to the faith, You can then reach the maximum level of Glory, which is full joy and happiness in the pressence of our heavely Father" which is correct, but lacks "And become a god yourself"

those are simple things

do they have deep theological roots and consecuences and they therefore change your whole cosmovision and therefore change the very nature of the God you worship? for sure
did I ask all the theological basis for such notion and the consecuences of it? nope, i asked what it meant...

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
"Here in the Church of Latter day Saints, we believe that all humans can become gods of their own planet through the atonement of Jesus christ and the Ordinances of the church"
which actuallty is very close to one of your articles of faith!

That's ^ not what LDS believe.

Undercover_mormon said:
Now, lets try with the baptism for the dead
"Here in the Church of Latter day Saints, we believe that all humans, if they happened to not have accepted christ and done everything required, can still be exhalted, as while they are in a second life of sorts, which is called the Spirit World, we can go ahead and make a baptism in their name and so on and so forth, allowing those poor people to accept such baptism and move on to exaltation"

The wording here leaves much to be desired, but the gist is exactly what is exactly what is told to investigators.

Undercover_mormon said:
well... it took almost 8 months, for those almost 6 lines to be clearly told to me

Because you didn't read the book or take lessons. Can't blame other people when you decline resources.

Undercover_mormon said:
instead i got for example "When you fullfill all the laws and ordinances and live according to the faith, You can then reach the maximum level of Glory, which is full joy and happiness in the pressence of our heavely Father" which is correct, but lacks "And become a god yourself"

The "lacking" part isn't there because the picture you're painting here is not accurate.

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
There aren't any LDS from Argentina on the forum, so no worries about that.
When you're switching up things so much that your story makes sense, it really hampers my ability to understand/communicate here. It gives a "I'm uncredible" vibe.

So you WERE offered to talk with the missionaries.

And again offered.

Honestly I suspect that there's something else going on here. Someone leaving the church doesn't equate to saying "they cheated on me".

You just hid a bunch of stuff from us, including flat out lying. And advocating more lying. And then complain that people are "hiding" things when you skipped out on the many resources offer to you.

Do you see how you're sounding here?

Yes after already a full day recalling the story i now remember a 10 second conversation that I now recognize was the missonaries offering such lessons but that i didnt recognize as such until basically hours ago.
No, I was never again offered (that i know of) and by that time i knew a little bit more, so even if they said it that subtle way i would have caught it. what happened to the end of my stay is that my friends and my class started to speak more openly about topics that are pretty far off

Regarding the gf part... its a break up, no matter how you spin it people do [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ty stuff i for example told my family that we simply didnt want to be together anymore, since otherwise i would get a lecture on how love is more important than God (she thinks that way, i dont) so i guess maybe she did the same to friends? all i know is that my best friend of the time said she did and at that point, i trusted my best friend my life...

Like, give me a break. I entered the church with a less than basic level of christianity, so you cant expect that person to interpret "Hey, do you want to have (fake names) fred and george visit you some time and sit down and chat?" as "Hey, do you want for us to send trained people to teach you about this religion in which you been part of 2 hours?" and up until today i didnt even realize that was it.

PS literally my gf introduced them to me as "hey (my fake name) mark, this are elder fred and elder george! they are from the states and came here though the church" I remember that i came to understand what missonaries looked like about a month after that so at the time i thought they were simply people that were here to visit or smth

and thanks for the reassuring, but i'd rather stay safe, there arent many chappens in my city and frankly i'd rather save the trouble of being outed by chance.

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
Yes after already a full day recalling the story i now remember a 10 second conversation that I now recognize was the missonaries offering such lessons but that i didnt recognize as such until basically hours ago.
No, I was never again offered (that i know of) and by that time i knew a little bit more, so even if they said it that subtle way i would have caught it. what happened to the end of my stay is that my friends and my class started to speak more openly about topics that are pretty far off

Regarding the gf part... its a break up, no matter how you spin it people do [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ty stuff i for example told my family that we simply didnt want to be together anymore, since otherwise i would get a lecture on how love is more important than God (she thinks that way, i dont) so i guess maybe she did the same to friends? all i know is that my best friend of the time said she did and at that point, i trusted my best friend my life...

Like, give me a break. I entered the church with a less than basic level of christianity, so you cant expect that person to interpret "Hey, do you want to have (fake names) fred and george visit you some time and sit down and chat?" as "Hey, do you want for us to send trained people to teach you about this religion in which you been part of 2 hours?" and up until today i didnt even realize that was it.

PS literally my gf introduced them to me as "hey (my fake name) mark, this are elder fred and elder george! they are from the states and came here though the church" I remember that i came to understand what missonaries looked like about a month after that so at the time i thought they were simply people that were here to visit or smth

and thanks for the reassuring, but i'd rather stay safe, there arent many chappens in my city and frankly i'd rather save the trouble of being outed by chance.

There's a HUGE difference between "I didn't understand that I was being offered lessons" and "no one offered me lessons".

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
That's ^ not what LDS believe.

The wording here leaves much to be desired, but the gist is exactly what is exactly what is told to investigators.

Because you didn't read the book or take lessons. Can't blame other people when you decline resources.

The "lacking" part isn't there because the picture you're painting here is not accurate.

Lets break it down>

Jane_Doe said:
That's ^ not what LDS believe

According to mormon friends, and more importantly, LDS.org, thats exactly the doctrine: Baptisms for the Dead specially where it says:

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them. A living person, often a descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person. This work is done by Church members in temples throughout the world.

AND

Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world.

Which is exactly what I said *(note, i meant to say those who couldnt, not those who rejected, if you were arguing that technicallity, then yes)

Jane_Doe said:
Because you didn't read the book or take lessons. Can't blame other people when you decline resources.

To my knowledge, offered once and in a subtle way, did attend the principle of the scripture classes and I DID read the book. Again, as i knew next to nothing, i did it either with my GF to help me along, or during the class, also the main issue is people avoiding flat out saying it when asked and choosing a round about way until i was pretty committed. In any other church you can ask and you'll be told what makes it unique in i guess 2 seconds flat

Jane_Doe said:
The "lacking" part isn't there because the picture you're painting here is not accurate.

Rregarding Deification: Becoming Like God

Here it plainly states what i just stated... whereas i might haved used a wrong term, the idea remains...

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
There's a HUGE difference between "I didn't understand that I was being offered lessons" and "no one offered me lessons".

yeah.. theres a difference, but I wouldnt say that because they said "hey, do you want to sit down and talk with fred and george" once in super casual way before i even knew they were missonaries they are off the hook then to respond my questions in super dodgy way and tiptoeing around... look, If by chance I had gone to the bathroom or I had decided to leave early, I might have never been offered.

Plus once again, one invitation to chat doesnt remedie 6 months of hiding stuff before they started opening up...

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
Lets break it down>

According to mormon friends, and more importantly, LDS.org, thats exactly the doctrine: Baptisms for the Dead specially where it says:

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them. A living person, often a descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person. This work is done by Church members in temples throughout the world.

AND

Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world.

Which is exactly what I said *(note, i meant to say those who couldnt, not those who rejected, if you were arguing that technicallity, then yes)

No, you added the "of their own planet" part. Such is very inaccurate.

Undercover_mormon said:
To my knowledge, offered once and in a subtle way, did attend the principle of the scripture classes and I DID read the book. Again, as i knew next to nothing, i did it either with my GF to help me along, or during the class, also the main issue is people avoiding flat out saying it when asked and choosing a round about way until i was pretty committed.

I'm sorry, but I'm very skeptical to your claims here, probably because you didn't understand what was being said.

Undercover_mormon said:
In any other church you can ask and you'll be told what makes it unique in i guess 2 seconds flat

As a person who's traveled and studied many faiths, that statement is not true. There is a LOT of deep stuff in every faith that is not remotely sad unless you pry for it.

Undercover_mormon said:
Rregarding Deification: Becoming Like God

Here it plainly states what i just stated... whereas i might haved used a wrong term, the idea remains...

Terms matter. There is a HUGE difference between becoming one WITH God and like Him (which is actual LDS beliefs), versus anything that paints the picture of replacing our Father (not remotely LDS beliefs).

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
There's a HUGE difference between "I didn't understand that I was being offered lessons" and "no one offered me lessons".

Also Jane, do you realize when i articulated the baptism for the death in the same way as i did here but to people who tought i had already been converted they said "right on! you got it!" which reflects LDS.ord and so on, yet you, knowing i'm not a convert adamantly deny that i got anything right?

THATS EXACLY THE KIND OF TIPTOEING I'M TALKING ABOUT

otherwise, explain in your own terms the baptism for the dead... remember i do have access to LDS.org, the bible, and i can go grab myself my copy of the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, the pearl of great price and pretty much any resource... go ahead

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
yeah.. theres a difference, but I wouldnt say that because they said "hey, do you want to sit down and talk with fred and george" once in super casual way before i even knew they were missonaries they are off the hook then to respond my questions in super dodgy way and tiptoeing around... look, If by chance I had gone to the bathroom or I had decided to leave early, I might have never been offered.

Plus once again, one invitation to chat doesnt remedie 6 months of hiding stuff before they started opening up...

So you're... mad they didn't bang down your door and be totally obnoxious about inviting you..

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
No, you added the "of their own planet" part. Such is very inaccurate.

I'm sorry, but I'm very skeptical to your claims here, probably because you didn't understand what was being said.

As a person who's traveled and studied many faiths, that statement is not true. There is a LOT of deep stuff in every faith that is not remotely sad unless you pry for it.

Terms matter. There is a HUGE difference between becoming one WITH God and like Him (which is actual LDS beliefs), versus anything that paints the picture of replacing our Father (not remotely LDS beliefs).

Never ever ever ever ever ever said anything about replacing...
According to the 5th president Lorenzo Snow : “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be." if that is true. God has a planet over which it rules, if we are to become like God, I'd say its not an stretch at all to say we would also be able to create ourselves like heavenly father

Ironhold · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
for whatever reason, they never offered any missonary classes maybe they are doing stuff diferently here, remember, i'm not in the us, if you see my profile it clearly says argentina.

It's church-wide policy.

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
Also Jane, do you realize when i articulated the baptism for the death in the same way as i did here but to people who tought i had already been converted they said "right on! you got it!" which reflects LDS.ord and so on, yet you, knowing i'm not a convert adamantly deny that i got anything right?

THATS EXACLY THE KIND OF TIPTOEING I'M TALKING ABOUT

otherwise, explain in your own terms the baptism for the dead... remember i do have access to LDS.org, the bible, and i can go grab myself my copy of the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, the pearl of great price and pretty much any resource... go ahead

That's not tiptoeing. That's you acting as two radically different people in two radically different scenarios. Yes, you get different responses. The exact same thing would happen if you walked into a Baptist church as asked "who is God?" versus quoting the Athanasian Creed.

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
So you're... mad they didn't bang down your door and be totally obnoxious about inviting you..

no... thats a strawman... i didnt like being withheld information even when asking close to 6 months, and once i suddenly when i started to express myself more like a mormon and started to convert, all of the sudden, that info just rolled of their tounges..

they could have very easily after one of my classes full of questions gone up to me and say "hey, would you like to take some classes with us? thats what we are here for!" maybe less months of indirect answers and a little bit more direct invite to a class

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
Never ever ever ever ever ever said anything about replacing...
According to the 5th president Lorenzo Snow : “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be." if that is true. God has a planet over which it rules, if we are to become like God, I'd say its not an stretch at all to say we would also be able to create ourselves like heavenly father

I'm sorry, but you're taking a non-scriptural statement which you don't understand the background of, adding your own huge exptrapolation to it, and then proclaiming "Mormons believe this!". All while completely ignoring the part of the "Becoming Like God" essay which specifically states that such charactatures are inaccurate.

... dude.

Ironhold · Dec 6, 2018

DamianWarS said:
correct, we must not go against the will of God but creatively entering a space where the gospel is corrupted so that it may be restored is a good cause. @Undercover_mormon should ensure he is called by God first to reach LDS, then he needs to ensure that is "undercover" platform is the right method to reach these people.

Official policy from Salt Lake City is that when dealing with others, we're supposed to go through the front door whenever possible, not the back.

If it tells you anything, we even managed to get a temple behind the Iron Curtain because of this. While other religious groups were acting like moonshiners to get their stuff across, we were working face-to-face with the local Communist authorities in East Germany to ensure compliance with all local laws and so thoroughly impressed them that they basically let us have our way.

So the prospect of "infiltrating someone else's congregation" is abhorrent by comparison.

Undercover_mormon · Dec 6, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
That's not tiptoeing. That's you acting as two radically different people in two radically different scenarios. Yes, you get different responses. The exact same thing would happen if you walked into a Baptist church as asked "who is God?" versus quoting the Athanasian Creed.

Except we are talking about a very very specific ritual that doesnt have much open for interpretation:
A usually descendant of someone who never heard the gospel or could get to is baptized in the name of that person, the spirit of which can accept or reject said baptism in the spirit world

Ironhold · Dec 6, 2018

mmksparbud said:
The question isn't what to give to someone who needs milk, but what to give to someone who already has ground beef and wants steak.

At that point, the person should be in a situation to where, as the church leadership has been urging, they're beginning to explore the church websites and other resources on their own and not needing as much hand-holding.

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
no... thats a strawman... i didnt like being withheld information even when asking close to 6 months, and once i suddenly when i started to express myself more like a mormon and started to convert, all of the sudden, that info just rolled of their tounges..

they could have very easily after one of my classes full of questions gone up to me and say "hey, would you like to take some classes with us? thats what we are here for!" maybe less months of indirect answers and a little bit more direct invite to a class

They offered, gave you material, books, special classes, offered meetings, etc. You can't say anything about people not offering or resources not being there.

And then when you did take action to learn and advance your education, then people provided even more for you.

Jane_Doe · Dec 6, 2018

Undercover_mormon said:
Except we are talking about a very very specific ritual that doesnt have much open for interpretation:
A usually descendant of someone who never heard the gospel or could get to is baptized in the name of that person, the spirit of which can accept or reject said baptism in the spirit world

And that is literally explained on the (usually) second missionary lesson. It's in the Gospel Principles manual. It's not remotely hidden.

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