Going "Undercover" as a "Mormon" question for non LDS christians

[Rescued One]

"Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god."
President Spencer W. Kimball, The Abundant Life, Ensign, 1985

("This important address was published in the July 1978 Ensign. At the direction of the President, it is reprinted for renewed individual and family study.")
The Abundant Life - ensign

It has been very common for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to accuse us of providing out-of-context quotes in order to discredit the veracity of those who disagree with their teachings. Go to the links so frequently provided to see who is giving you accurate information.

 

[SimplyMe]

LDS DO teach that they can and should become Gods as well as equal to God.



From lds.org:
In 1832, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon experienced a vision of the afterlife. In the vision, they learned that the just and unjust alike would receive immortality through a universal resurrection, but only those “who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise” would receive the fulness of God’s glory and be “gods, even the sons of God.”28 Another revelation soon confirmed that “the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.”29 Latter-day Saints use the term exaltation to describe the glorious reward of receiving one’s full inheritance as a child of Heavenly Father, which is available through the Atonement of Christ, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.30

This striking view of each human’s potential future was accompanied by revealed teachings on humanity’s past. As Joseph Smith continued to receive revelations, he learned that the light or intelligence at the core of each human soul “was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” God is the Father of each human spirit, and because only “spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy,” He presented a plan for human beings to receive physical bodies and progress through their mortal experience toward a fulness of joy. Earthly birth, then, is not the beginning of an individual’s life: “Man was also in the beginning with God.”31 Likewise, Joseph Smith taught that the material world has eternal roots, fully repudiating the concept of creation ex nihilo.“Earth, water &c—all these had their existence in an elementary State from Eternity,” he said in an 1839 sermon.32 God organized the universe out of existing elements....
Becoming Like God

You apparently haven't studied Mormonism in depth. I would suggest reading multiple articles at lds.org.

Doctrine and Covenants 88 (LDS Scripture)
106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and
the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.
Doctrine and Covenants 88

And I'd suggest a reading of D&C 88, which is talking about the resurrection, not about becoming like God. In this context, they are talking about "being equal with God" to living in God's presence -- essentially the same idea as going to Heaven. This appears to be a prime example of quote mining.

 

[Ironhold]

Mormons do not believe in eternal God in 3 Persons, but hold to 3 gods who evolved to that level, deny Jesus as almighty eternal Creator, as he was the spirit brother to Satan Himself, and deny that he is the Messiah in the same sense scriptures describe him as being! They also hold that faithful Mormons will become gods and have celestial wives, and basically populate their Earth and become the God over it, just as God is over this earth! They also see Adam as God, who had physical sex with Mary, and Jesus resulted!

What Decker book did you get all that from?

 

[drstevej]

What Decker book did you get all that from?

Why not deal with the content of the post rather than speculate about the source?

 

[twin.spin]

And I'd suggest a reading of D&C 88, which is talking about the resurrection, not about becoming like God. In this context, they are talking about "being equal with God" to living in God's presence -- essentially the same idea as going to Heaven. This appears to be a prime example of quote mining.

Anyone who knows Phoebe Ann's well documented history of her and subsequent OP's would be pretty fool hearty to make the accusation that she was quote mining.

 

[YeshuaFan]

What Decker book did you get all that from?

From Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults!

 

[Ironhold]

From Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults!

It's still factually, provably wrong material presented by someone who lied to the masses for money.

In no particular order:

1. While we reject the traditional "three in one" concept of the Godhead, we do *not* deny their divinity. Rather, we hold that they are physically separate and united in essence and nature.

2. All of us who ever were, are, and will be are the literal children of Heavenly Father. This means that Jesus and Satan are our brothers.

3. Most of the "populate other worlds" nonsense that critics like to go on about is based on sporadic, scattered statements; this is because critics spend more time on this than actual members.

4. The whole "Adam had sex with Mary" bit is based on numerous anti-Mormon lies that have been mashed together like a Yugo between a pair of semi trucks.

 

[Rescued One]

And I'd suggest a reading of D&C 88, which is talking about the resurrection, not about becoming like God. In this context, they are talking about "being equal with God" to living in God's presence -- essentially the same idea as going to Heaven. This appears to be a prime example of quote mining.

Wrong. Without the resurrection, a Latter-day Saint can never become a god. I can see that you don't want to gain information, but are here to whitewash Mormonism. I'm so sorry. You may behave as a Mormon and accuse me of quote mining, yet you are unwilling to do the research. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Ironhold]

From Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults!

As far as Martin himself goes -

Christian Countercult Movement: W.R. Martin

He went to the grave having to defend his credibility against several severe allegations, so you'd do better to avoid him on principal.

 

[Rescued One]

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism taught:

I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority.

...God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.
The King Follett Sermon - ensign


"The King Follett Sermon, one of the classics of Church literature, was given by the Prophet Joseph Smith at the April 7, 1844, conference of the Church in Nauvoo, Illinois. Some twenty thousand Saints were assembled."
The King Follett Sermon - ensign

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.

To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.

This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.

Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:

"I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
this is EXACTLY TRUE.

I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)

Anyways, thanks!!

Sounds great, good for you! I wish you the best in your endeavors! I hope you'll report back what you find to us so that we can learn with you!

 

[Rescued One]

The Ensign Magazine is published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
LDS Magazine Collection - LDS (Mormon) Church Publications

• 1971: The Church reorganizes and combines existing Church publications into the Friend, New Era, and Ensign, under the direction of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

The Ensign was designed for adult members of the Church and included monthly First Presidency and Relief Society Messages and informative articles on a variety of gospel topics.

In the 40 years since the consolidation of the Church magazines, the design has changed significantly. But besides that, the changes have been small: the New Era’s audience narrowed from ages 12–26 to ages 12–18 in 1975, fiction was eliminated from the magazines, several sections came and went, and the Ensign began placing general conference addresses on the Church website three or for days after the close of conference, providing free, almost immediate access to conference addresses.
Church Magazines Celebrate 40 Years of Informing and Inspiring Church Members - Church News and Events

 

[SimplyMe]

Wrong. Without the resurrection, a Latter-day Saint can never become a god. I can see that you don't want to gain information, but are here to whitewash Mormonism. I'm so sorry. You may behave as a Mormon and accuse me of quote mining, yet you are unwilling to do the research. I'll keep that in mind.

I'm not trying to white wash anything, I'm merely trying to apply some context as to, from my own research, about Mormons actually believe. More to the point, I find that not accurately representing beliefs of Mormons will turn them off from anything else you might say -- they know they can't trust you.

And it seems clear, at least to me, that your own research comes from other sources that are less than honest about Mormon beliefs -- but then uses quote mining from lds.org and other sources, similar to what you did with the one verse from D&C 88. And, sure, a person -- per what the Mormons believe -- needs to be resurrected to become a god, but a chapter on what happens during the resurrection has little do do with becoming a god; particularly since Mormons believe pretty much everyone, good or evil, will be resurrected.

In fact, the new thread you posted is rather funny because it merely, again, removes the verse from the context of D&C 88 and then adds quotes that don't even support your point that Mormons believe they will become "equal with God."

You'll also notice that I don't take issue with many things you post, like the King Follett sermon, I'm not trying to whitewash anything. I just merely believe that honestly communicating beliefs is more productive than the dishonesty/exaggeration that some Christian groups (this is not directed at you) use.

 

[SimplyMe]

Anyone who knows Phoebe Ann's well documented history of her and subsequent OP's would be pretty fool hearty to make the accusation that she was quote mining.

Whether she does it elsewhere or not, that particularly instance is a very clear use of quote mining. She is using a verse from the D&C that, if you read the "Section" it comes from, does not support what she is trying to say. The chapter (or section, as they call it) talks solely about what occurs at the time of the resurrection and nothing in LDS theology suggest they will "instantly," upon resurrection, become gods -- much less equal to God. Every instance of Mormons talking about how they can become gods talks about it as an ultimate goal they strive towards after the resurrection.

 

[mmksparbud]

Whether she does it elsewhere or not, that particularly instance is a very clear use of quote mining. She is using a verse from the D&C that, if you read the "Section" it comes from, does not support what she is trying to say. The chapter (or section, as they call it) talks solely about what occurs at the time of the resurrection and nothing in LDS theology suggest they will "instantly," upon resurrection, become gods -- much less equal to God. Every instance of Mormons talking about how they can become gods talks about it as an ultimate goal they strive towards after the resurrection.

LOL!---Whether it is instant or takes 2,000 years---the point is---we can become equal to God. Are you Mormon undercover as a Christian???? Just wondering.

 

[Ironhold]

LOL!---Whether it is instant or takes 2,000 years---the point is---we can become equal to God. Are you Mormon undercover as a Christian???? Just wondering.

This saddens me.

SimplyMe is trying to say "Let's be fair here; if we're going to criticize them, let's do it honestly".

This is the exact same kind of thing people have been calling on other Christians to do for decades now, but each and every time this leads to the person either being called a traitor or called a sock puppet.

 

[mmksparbud]

This saddens me.

SimplyMe is trying to say "Let's be fair here; if we're going to criticize them, let's do it honestly".

This is the exact same kind of thing people have been calling on other Christians to do for decades now, but each and every time this leads to the person either being called a traitor or called a sock puppet.

Diversion. Just asked -- as the person sounds Mormon. If they are not--the answer is no. Because as I said--the point is that you believe you do become God eventually--so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to make a big deal of how soon you become one. I agree that the truth is what is important---I understand standing up for what your believes are and correcting what you feel is wrong--I do it constantly. I don't mind people arguing against SDA believes--just be against what we actually believe and not what non-SDA's think we believe. It's just that you guys have a way of hiding what you actually do believe.

 

[YeshuaFan]

It's still factually, provably wrong material presented by someone who lied to the masses for money.

In no particular order:

1. While we reject the traditional "three in one" concept of the Godhead, we do *not* deny their divinity. Rather, we hold that they are physically separate and united in essence and nature.

2. All of us who ever were, are, and will be are the literal children of Heavenly Father. This means that Jesus and Satan are our brothers.

3. Most of the "populate other worlds" nonsense that critics like to go on about is based on sporadic, scattered statements; this is because critics spend more time on this than actual members.

4. The whole "Adam had sex with Mary" bit is based on numerous anti-Mormon lies that have been mashed together like a Yugo between a pair of semi trucks.

The Mormon Apostles have held that Mormonism teaches that there are 3 separate gods, and do NOT hold to the Christian view of God being One God in 3 persons!
Mormon Prophets have held that Adam was the God of the earth that had physical sex with Mary, and Jesus was the result.
Mormonism greatest tenet is that God was once a man just like us who evolved to being God, just as all faithful Mormons shall one day do... As Man now is, God once was, as God now is, we shall one day become!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism taught:

I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority.

...God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.
The King Follett Sermon - ensign


"The King Follett Sermon, one of the classics of Church literature, was given by the Prophet Joseph Smith at the April 7, 1844, conference of the Church in Nauvoo, Illinois. Some twenty thousand Saints were assembled."
The King Follett Sermon - ensign

Mormonism teaches that there are many gods, that there was never was an Eternal God, deny the trinity, deny the blood atonement of Christ, hold to becoming gods themselves, really as much a Christian church as the JW are!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I'm not trying to white wash anything, I'm merely trying to apply some context as to, from my own research, about Mormons actually believe. More to the point, I find that not accurately representing beliefs of Mormons will turn them off from anything else you might say -- they know they can't trust you.

And it seems clear, at least to me, that your own research comes from other sources that are less than honest about Mormon beliefs -- but then uses quote mining from lds.org and other sources, similar to what you did with the one verse from D&C 88. And, sure, a person -- per what the Mormons believe -- needs to be resurrected to become a god, but a chapter on what happens during the resurrection has little do do with becoming a god; particularly since Mormons believe pretty much everyone, good or evil, will be resurrected.

In fact, the new thread you posted is rather funny because it merely, again, removes the verse from the context of D&C 88 and then adds quotes that don't even support your point that Mormons believe they will become "equal with God."

You'll also notice that I don't take issue with many things you post, like the King Follett sermon, I'm not trying to whitewash anything. I just merely believe that honestly communicating beliefs is more productive than the dishonesty/exaggeration that some Christian groups (this is not directed at you) use.

Morminism denies the cardinal truths of Christianity, are a biblical cult, in same camp as the JW are!