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Featured Going "Undercover" as a "Mormon" question for non LDS christians

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Undercover_mormon, Dec 4, 2018.

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  1. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    "Humankind’s divine nature and potential for exaltation have been repeatedly taught in general conference addresses, Church magazines, and other Church materials. “Divine nature” is one of eight core values in the Church’s Young Women program. Teaching on human beings’ divine parentage, nature, and potential features prominently in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” Divine nature and exaltation are essential and beloved teachings in the Church."

    "Joseph Smith continued to receive revelation on the themes of divine nature and exaltation during the last two years of his life. In a revelation recorded in July 1843 that linked exaltation with eternal marriage, the Lord declared that those who keep covenants, including the covenant of eternal marriage, will inherit “all heights and depths.” “Then,” says the revelation, “shall they be gods, because they have no end.” They will receive “a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.”33

    "Another revelation soon confirmed that “the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.”29 Latter-day Saints use the term exaltation to describe the glorious reward of receiving one’s full inheritance as a child of Heavenly Father, which is available through the Atonement of Christ, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.30"


    "Latter-day Saints see all people as children of God in a full and complete sense; they consider every person divine in origin, nature, and potential. Each has an eternal core and is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents.”1 Each possesses seeds of divinity and must choose whether to live in harmony or tension with that divinity. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people may “progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny.”2 Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their Heavenly Father's.
    "



    Hoenstly, I dont see a single hint of the fact that the LDS church doesnt believe in men becoming gods just like heavenly Father and if heavenly Father created this world, and we can be entirely like Him, the we too could do such a thing... of course, we would never be a God of this earth and replace Heavenly Father, i'm not saying that at all




     
  2. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +981
    Mormon
    "For example, scriptural expressions of the deep peace and overwhelming joy of salvation are often reproduced in the well-known image of humans sitting on their own clouds and playing harps after death. Latter-day Saints’ doctrine of exaltation is often similarly reduced in media to a cartoonish image of people receiving their own planets."
    Becoming Like God
     
  3. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Jane, hoestly, I think we are speaking differnt languages at this point

    it might be in the first lesson for all i care, but if you know NOTHING about how baptism is performed or whatever, and you simply say stuff like "yes, we get baptized so those who died can also move on" and leave it at that, its not as complete and it might not seem as strange

    If exaltation is the first, second or third lesson but when i eventually dont understand anything cause i'm friking new and you say "Oh, it means that if we obey God we might one day live with him in his presence" which were pretty much the exact answers


    buuuuut later, when asked the same 4 months in the road when they know you have been 99% converted and ask again cause it still seems odd and they resond "oh, we do a baptism so their spirit in the spirit world can choose to take it or not and thus move on"

    and "if we obey and follow the law, then one day, we might become gods ourselves"

    then there's a problem. becuase at first you said nothing of the spirit world and a concious choice and so on, and regarding exaltation at first your didnt explained that you ACTUALLY meant that we would be like GOD HIMSELF and not only share in his presence




    see the issue??

    look gonna make it simple

    the difference here is between saying "Jospeh was simply told to build a new church and he'd lead that church with living prophets" and saying "Jospeh was told that all christians were corrupt, that the creeds were an abomination to God, that he souldnt even join any church, and that God would send living prophets to guide the true chruch"

    Quite a difference, yet both can be explained to a newcomer... but the second one would have scared me away, the second one not all that much
     
  4. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    you are still becoming like God, and thus, you can become the God of your own planet, otherwise you wouldnt fully be like our God since he did just that... I'm not saying exaltation is God giving you a planet for your 3054837383 birthday, but rather that you become a god just like heavenly father. that right there is HUGE and i wasnt fully explained untill i was pretty darn committed
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    But you are giving those who come to you already eating ground beef, milk---why not give them the steak they thought you were going to give them?
     
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    given your goals I think it would be better to study LDS doctrines and find some people to befriend and talk about the stuff they believe in. It's a laudable thing to research a belief system in order to best show them the gospel but I actually wouldn't start attending a LDS church and if you do I would actually say upfront you are sceptical but wish to learn about it more, and don't overly argue doctrine because as you said you're there to be a student not a teacher.

    You will find most people can't defend doctrines very well or even articulate them, not just LDS but pretty much all faith groups around the world. People follow a specific culture and it may be more beneficial to ask LDS why LDS and not something else and see what their answers are. you may be surprise to hear that most answers have nothing to do with what you may identify as key issues but what they do say reflects where their heart is. Many values may be directly transferable to mainstream christianity but there may also be a void that they see from their experiences. For example if they say they like the close community and how everyone looks out for everyone else, well those are NT values and are not unique to LDS but there may in fact be quite a few Churches that miss that mark with this. These sort of values are their culture and if get a good sense of their culture you can better speak to them about Christ.

    Doctrines for most people are over their heads and if you argue them and win all you typically do is get the other person upset or embarrassed but you won't get someone coming over to your side because you made it magically clear for them. Jesus asked Peter "who do you say that I am" and Peter replied saying "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God" now LDS read the same passage and make their on conclusions from it but the important part is after this when Jesus says "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven" and the lesson is we cannot convince someone who Jesus is, only God can reveal God, but we can introduce Jesus and give people opportunities to better receive divine revelations like Peter got.

    I speak to a lot of Muslims and I use a Muslim identity for Jesus when I do which is "Isa" not Jesus or the Arabic Yasu (I also speak a different language where many Christians of that language use the term Isa and bibles are translated with this term). I do it deliberately to engage someone using terms they identify with Often when they speak of what they would call innate Islamic values what they are calling out is western culture not the gospel and do not understand that what they just said is a gospel value as well. So I take those opportunities to agree with those values (that agree with the gospel) and tell them what the Injil (the gospel) says and what Isa (Jesus) says and they how Isa's words mean so much to me that I have strong value for it too. When I walk away I hope what I have broken down some of their presumptions perhaps about me and what I believe and also be more intrigued about what Jesus says. My job is not to tell them they got it wrong and that Jesus is God, that would crush the conversation immediately and just make someone upset. My job is to show Jesus to them with my actions but also with the spoken gospel. Jesus never spoke the entire gospel in one sitting like you see Paul or Peter do he always gave them little nuggets and it stew. We can't expect people way over there to immediately renounce what they believe and come to where we are but we can do this step by step and still effectively show them the gospel.

    You could do the same with LDS, when they speak of a value that they feel is uniquely LDS or that LDS got it right, yet has nothing really to do with doctrines and are easily seen in the NT then agree with them and quote the NT scripture, walk through scripture with them so their eyes may be opened that probably the stuff they think is important may actually have nothing to with LDS doctrines. You can also use LDS terminology provided the terminology is reconcilable with the gospel. I don't know what the terminology is but if the terminology is reconcilable with orthodox Christians beliefs then use it. For example I think LDS use the KJV for their bible... if that's the case put away your ESV, or NIV or NLT and start using the KJV when speaking about the gospel otherwise they may be sceptical of the version you use and think it may be corrupted or not reflect LDS thinking. that's just an example and I'm not even really sure if other versions are used often in LDS circles but don't use something strange to them, use something they already identify with already.
     
  7. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +981
    Mormon
    I'm sorry, but I need to be very blunt here:
    "Latter-day Saints’ doctrine of exaltation is often similarly reduced in media to a cartoonish image of people receiving their own planets."
    Becoming Like God

    You are incorrectly thinking becoming like God is about superpowers or "getting a planned for you birthday". Your mindset here is completely juvenile and NOT REMOTELY how an LDS person thinks of becoming like God. I don't care if you agree with LDS beliefs, but if your truly want to understand LDS people/theology, then you need to stop going on about silliness and listen.
     
  8. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Thanks! thats really the reason why I wanted to attend LDS church somewhat (still not gonna go and attend every day, since I would have to neglect my own church or even neglect school) however, my desire is to be able to understand those values that they hold dear, be able to understand exactly what they mean when they say Jesus or God.
    For example, If i didnt know that they believe Jesus is the brother of all of us and a created being, i could think we are talking about the same Jesus and never address those differences.
     
  9. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    No LDS person told you that LDS don't believe that Jesus is a created being.
    Believing that the Father is the Father of all, sure.

    Why should an LDS person tell you something they don't believe?
     
  10. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Jane, for pete's sake stop responding to what you think I said and read my comments!

    I'm not talking about super powers or getting planets for your birthday, but the LDS doctrine is that if you accept christ and obey the laws and oridinances of the church, you can become like God and we are all are divine in nature and that is simply maturing into godhood. We thus attain godhood in where we trascend earthly limitations just like Heavenly Father did, and thus become like Him.

    Whats cartoonish about that? I know you are tought that everyone outside the church believes a cartoon image of your beliefs, but i havent been taught by movies or tv shows, but by your books, your church, and your resources like LDS.org ... note how the post to which you answer this last time has direct quotations from LDS.org, which in turn are direct quotation of prophets!
     
  11. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    So Jesus is not a created being by the Father? So Jesus always existed as such, as God, the SAME God as the Father in Essence?

    let me clarify, when i say in essence, i'm talking of the father and the son being no different from a head and the arms, both are the same body, but they are different parts of it, so too is Jesus God, and the SAME God that Elohim is.. or else explain it

    PS when i say "always" i mean from eternity, not simply "before this earth" but since always, When I say Jesus is eternal, is that Jesus Lived as Jesus and being one in God with the Father, before anything else existed in this earth or anywhere for that matter
     
  12. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +981
    Mormon
    Getting a lot better, but still inaccurate. For example, there's no mention of repentance and the atonement.
    False.
    With all due respect, you have a long way to go before understanding. And a lot of you statements here show the impact of people like Jeff Durham (which is not a good thing).
    Christ has always existed and ways been God.
    I don't believe a thing about God's "essence" because scripture doesn't say a thing about that. All references to "essence" comes from post-Biblical Creeds.
    When I say always I mean always. Not simply "before the earth was a made".
     
  13. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Actually, quite a few people in mainline Christianity have a vested interest (re: their mortgages) in ensuring that such cartoonish images are circulated out to the public instead of the actual theology.

    You're talking to people who have been dealing with anti-Mormon hate for decades now; we've seen things most mainline Christians had no idea was going on within even their own congregations.
     
  14. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    You say all that like it's a bad thing and something mainline Christians should be horrified by.
     
  15. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Some non-LDS are like that. A very vocal tiny minority. These anti-LDS folks have every interest (and $$$) in making LDS folks look foolish, and frankly most of their presentations are fool of gross misrepresentations of the LDS faith. I've sat through presentations where the speaker literally couldn't go 30 seconds without bearing false witness. I've had all manner of horrible things (including actual violence) advocated to 'purge out Mormons and their corruption'.

    But that is NOT all non-LDS people. (something that I know @Ironhold acknowledges). In fact, majority of folks don't hold any anti-LDS grudge at all, in fact they don't even think of LDS people at all. And there are good non-LDS people out there who are willing to get their facts straight and be totally friendly to LDS people (while of course still not being LDS themselves).
     
  16. SimplyMe

    SimplyMe Senior Veteran

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    It seems to me that the word "God" is messing the discussion up -- largely, what different people understand the word "God" to mean (at least when not referring to our Father who art in Heaven). As an example, if we go by Genesis 3, Satan claims that just knowing about good and evil is to become like God.

    With that in mind, I think the best explanation I've heard from a Mormon ties into the idea that we are the Children of God. If you have a child, it grows and matures through the years to become "like" you. It never becomes you, your child is never 'equal' to you, in the sense that they are always your child -- you remain the parent. Granted, there are plenty of imperfections in that analogy, if for no other reason than our imperfect world with sickness and evil.

    Still, the idea that most Mormons, at least that I've talked to, seem to believe is that they are literally children of God, that they are direct sons and daughters in the sense that God created their spirits. In that sense, as their relationship with God grows and matures, they will become "like" God -- that they are born with his attributes and merely need to perfect themselves. However, at best they believe they will become gods (lower case "g") in that they share attributes with Him, and seek to become like Him. At the same time, they will never be God (Uppercase "G") -- He will always be above them, He will always be God and they will never be "equal", no matter how similar to Him they might be able to become.

    Looking as some of the things quote mined by using the above ideas, you begin to see why Mormon's feel those quotes are being taken out of context. It makes a huge difference if you look at those quotes believing Mormon's believe they will actually be a god equal to God, rather than a child of God who is growing into resembling God, their father.

    If someone who is LDS would like to correct me on a part of this, that would be great. I just hope this might help clear some things up, help get everyone on the "same page," and perhaps lead to greater understanding by both sides.
     
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  17. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    You actually did a pretty good job. Thank you :)
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I can explain. But these explanations take a lot of time.

    I've studied Mormonism from their official sources for more than fifty years. And I was an active tithe-paying Mormon for more than a decade.
     
  19. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    Mormons do not believe in eternal God in 3 Persons, but hold to 3 gods who evolved to that level, deny Jesus as almighty eternal Creator, as he was the spirit brother to Satan Himself, and deny that he is the Messiah in the same sense scriptures describe him as being! They also hold that faithful Mormons will become gods and have celestial wives, and basically populate their Earth and become the God over it, just as God is over this earth! They also see Adam as God, who had physical sex with Mary, and Jesus resulted!
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    LDS DO teach that they can and should become Gods as well as equal to God.


    From lds.org:
    In 1832, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon experienced a vision of the afterlife. In the vision, they learned that the just and unjust alike would receive immortality through a universal resurrection, but only those “who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise” would receive the fulness of God’s glory and be “gods, even the sons of God.”28 Another revelation soon confirmed that “the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.”29 Latter-day Saints use the term exaltation to describe the glorious reward of receiving one’s full inheritance as a child of Heavenly Father, which is available through the Atonement of Christ, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.30

    This striking view of each human’s potential future was accompanied by revealed teachings on humanity’s past. As Joseph Smith continued to receive revelations, he learned that the light or intelligence at the core of each human soul “was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” God is the Father of each human spirit, and because only “spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy,” He presented a plan for human beings to receive physical bodies and progress through their mortal experience toward a fulness of joy. Earthly birth, then, is not the beginning of an individual’s life: “Man was also in the beginning with God.”31 Likewise, Joseph Smith taught that the material world has eternal roots, fully repudiating the concept of creation ex nihilo.“Earth, water &c—all these had their existence in an elementary State from Eternity,” he said in an 1839 sermon.32 God organized the universe out of existing elements....
    Becoming Like God

    You apparently haven't studied Mormonism in depth. I would suggest reading multiple articles at lds.org.


    Doctrine and Covenants 88 (LDS Scripture)
    106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

    107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and
    the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.
    Doctrine and Covenants 88

     
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