Going To Heaven

d taylor · Aug 1, 2023

CoreyD said:
Yes, thank you. You said you don't know what the Saints will do in heaven. They did say exactly what they will do there, as citizens.

No i said i do not know what i will be doing. So what is it that they said they will be doing

d taylor · Aug 1, 2023

CoreyD said:
Interesting. That would make for interesting discussion, since if Hades is Abraham's bosom, people whom God judged as wicked, went there, according to the Bible.
However, not to go off topic (I had actually planned on asking questions on hell, in another thread), but sticking with heaven, what made everyone that died faithful to God, a Saint? How were they born again, prior to Jesus baptism by water, and spirit (anointing as a son), and his death.

-

You need to read the account Jesus gave of The Rich Man and Lazarus.

CoreyD · Aug 1, 2023

d taylor said:
No i said i do not know what i will be doing. So what is it that they said they will be doing

All the Saints do the same thing. They go to heaven for that one purpose, alone.
It's in the Bible. Following your lead - You need to read the Bible Taylor.

If you don't find out, I'll show you.

d taylor said:
You need to read the account Jesus gave of The Rich Man and Lazarus.

This is the second time you have said to me, I need to do something. I read the account.
If you say Hades is Abraham's bosom, which Jesus did not say, and yet, the wicked, whom God removed from the earth, went to Hades, something is wrong. Not with what the Bible says though.

CoreyD · Aug 11, 2023

d taylor said:
No i said i do not know what i will be doing. So what is it that they said they will be doing

The Bible says the Saints go to heaven to be kings, priests, and judges (2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 1:6; Revelation 5:10;; Revelation 20:6; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30 Revelation 20:4), alongside the King of king (John 18:36; Luke 22:30). great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14), and judge (John 5:22) - Jesus Christ..

So, the Bible shows us, there is a purpose, or reason for being anointed, and born again sons of God.
When you say they will be going to heaven temporarily, it raises two question: Why are they going temporarily? When are they leaving?

The Bible's answers seem quite different to what most people say in answer.
John 14:2, 3

In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

We are told, where, and how long.
Philippians 3:20; Luke 22:30; Revelation 3:21; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 22:5;; Daniel 7:13, 14, 18, 27; Daniel 2:44; 2 Corinthians 5:1

This may be new to you, but isn't it what we find in scripture?

NewLifeInChristJesus · Aug 11, 2023

CoreyD said:
Taylor, I was asking if you were taught these things in church, because I too, was taught these things from youth.
Yet, when you really study the scriptures, you realize that you haven't been taught the truth from the Bible, but rather, doctrines of men.

For example, we are taught that once a person dies, they go straight to heaven to be with God.
We are told, at funerals, the person is smiling down at us, from heaven, and they are at peace.

This seems to be difinitive:

1For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (2 Co 5:1–8)

CoreyD said:
Yet, the Bible says so many things contrary to this.
For one thing, Jesus, when he came to earth, said,
No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. John 3:13

No, Jesus was not saying nobody had died and gone to Heaven. He was saying that no one here on earth had been to heaven except Him.

Jesus made it clear that physical death was not the end of life for those that had passed, when He said this:

37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.” (Lk 20:37–38)

CoreyD said:
In the same Chapter, Jesus said,

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:3, 5

Jesus was not talking here about entering heaven, he was explaining that without being born of the Spirit no one can alive from the dead spiritually as we are in this life. There are many passages that explain this, including:

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Ro 8:9–11)

CoreyD said:
So faithful people died in the past, but Jesus said, no man had gone to heaven.
The scriptures gave reasons why this was impossible.

Jesus - the firstfruit to God, had not ascended to heaven as an immortal. 1 Corinthians 15:23

Jesus had not opened the way to heaven by means of his sacrificial body. Hebrews 9:24; Hebrews 10:19;

The story of the transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus (Matt. 16:28–17:9; Mark 9:1–9; Luke 9:27–36) proves that those who had passed before were still living. Whether or not they were "in heaven" is beside the point.

CoreyD said:
No one was born again - baptized in water, and spirit, prior to Jesus' death. John 3:3, 5

The "born of water" comment was not about water baptism, but about phyisical birth. We know this because Jesus explained it in the next 2 sentences:

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ (Jn 3:5–7)

"Born again" is talking about 2 births; one physical and one spiritual. "Born of water" probably referrs to the amniotic fluid flowing when we are born physically. Concerning water birth, Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh". Concerning Spirit birth, Jesus said, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". This is clearly talking about two births, one physical and one spiritual. Bringing in water baptism falls into the category you mentioned below... "many persons are being led astray".

CoreyD said:
There is so much to learn from the scriptures, that we have not been fed, and sadly, many persons are being led astray.

I think it is important that people learn the truth, about heaven, and other Biblical topics.
Would you agree?

Yes

CoreyD · Aug 11, 2023

B Griffin said:
This seems to be difinitive:

1For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (2 Co 5:1–8)

Yes. I agree, It is.

B Griffin said:
No, Jesus was not saying nobody had died and gone to Heaven. He was saying that no one here on earth had been to heaven except Him.

Jesus made it clear that physical death was not the end of life for those that had passed, when He said this:

37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.” (Lk 20:37–38)

Yes, he is the God of the living, for they all live, to him.
This is why Jesus could say, μὴ θαυμάζετε τοῦτο, ὅτι ἔρχεται ὥρα ἐν ᾗ πάντες οἱ ἐν τοῖς μνημείοις ἀκούσουσιν τῆς φωνῆς αὐτοῦ
Do you have a Greek interlinear? Would you like to render that in English for me. I hope you wouldn't mind.

B Griffin said:
Jesus was not talking here about entering heaven, he was explaining that without being born of the Spirit no one can alive from the dead spiritually as we are in this life. There are many passages that explain this, including:

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Ro 8:9–11)

Why do you say Jesus is not referring to entering heaven?
Is this not definitive?

he cannot see the kingdom of God

he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Why not?

Do these statements not correspond to 1 Corinthians 15:50?

B Griffin said:
The story of the transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus (Matt. 16:28–17:9; Mark 9:1–9; Luke 9:27–36) proves that those who had passed before were still living. Whether or not they were "in heaven" is beside the point.

I did not know it was a story. I thought it was a vision that was shown to the disciples.
Matthew 17:9
When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

It was a vision, wasn't it?
In that case, it does not prove that those who had passed before were still living.
In fact, that would contradict most of the scriptures in the Bible, as well as contradict Jesus.

One example is John 11.
11 [Jesus] went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
23 Jesus said to [Martha], “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”
44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus did not say Lazarus was alive somewhere. Nor does the account.
Rather, Jesus said that Lazarus was sleeping - dead, and he would wake him = resurrect him, or bring him back to life.
This is just one example, but it powerfully demonstrates the lie that Satan has told for centuries, since his first lie to Eve -“You certainly will not die!" Genesis 3:4
The lie has just taken on different forms, based on culture and religion, but all them say the same thing - you don't die. You are immortal.

B Griffin said:
The "born of water" comment was not about water baptism, but about phyisical birth. We know this because Jesus explained it in the next 2 sentences:

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ (Jn 3:5–7)

"Born again" is talking about 2 births; one physical and one spiritual. "Born of water" probably referrs to the amniotic fluid flowing when we are born physically. Concerning water birth, Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh". Concerning Spirit birth, Jesus said, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". This is clearly talking about two births, one physical and one spiritual. Bringing in water baptism falls into the category you mentioned below... "many persons are being led astray".

Yes

How did you go from that which is born to flesh, to mean that which is born of water?
Jesus did not say that which is born of flesh, is born of water.

If he meant one must be born of flesh, would he not have said so?
See my post on that, here, in answer to that question.

CoreyD · Aug 11, 2023

@B Griffin forgot to mention - one birth :
The first part is baptism : died to your former life; raised as a new man
The second part is anointing with holy spirit : begotten by spirit.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Aug 11, 2023

CoreyD said:
Yes. I agree, It is.

Yes, he is the God of the living, for they all live, to him.
This is why Jesus could say, μὴ θαυμάζετε τοῦτο, ὅτι ἔρχεται ὥρα ἐν ᾗ πάντες οἱ ἐν τοῖς μνημείοις ἀκούσουσιν τῆς φωνῆς αὐτοῦ
Do you have a Greek interlinear? Would you like to render that in English for me. I hope you wouldn't mind.

Why do you say Jesus is not referring to entering heaven?
Is this not definitive?

he cannot see the kingdom of God
he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Why not?

Do these statements not correspond to 1 Corinthians 15:50?

I did not know it was a story. I thought it was a vision that was shown to the disciples.
Matthew 17:9
When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

It was a vision, wasn't it?
In that case, it does not prove that those who had passed before were still living.
In fact, that would contradict most of the scriptures in the Bible, as well as contradict Jesus.

One example is John 11.
11 [Jesus] went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
23 Jesus said to [Martha], “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”
44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus did not say Lazarus was alive somewhere. Nor does the account.
Rather, Jesus said that Lazarus was sleeping - dead, and he would wake him = resurrect him, or bring him back to life.
This is just one example, but it powerfully demonstrates the lie that Satan has told for centuries, since his first lie to Eve -“You certainly will not die!" Genesis 3:4
The lie has just taken on different forms, based on culture and religion, but all them say the same thing - you don't die. You are immortal.

How did you go from that which is born to flesh, to mean that which is born of water?
Jesus did not say that which is born of flesh, is born of water.

If he meant one must be born of flesh, would he not have said so?
See my post on that, here, in answer to that question.

I am not sure exactly where you are coming from, but the Spirit is warning me to stay away. So, I'm going to mute you now.

CoreyD · Aug 21, 2023

B Griffin said:
I am not sure exactly where you are coming from, but the Spirit is warning me to stay away. So, I'm going to mute you now.

I can explain if you want to hear, but like you said, that spirit does not want you to. I'm not muted though. Did you mean you are going to be mute in this discussion? I can understand and appreciate your decision.

anetazo · Aug 23, 2023

What most people won't do. Matthew chapter 16:24. Take up your Cross and follow Jesus.
Let's be honest!
How many people are willing to submit to God's will??.
The factor is pride and some people are closed minded.
They don't want accountability.
Jesus knows His children. All the way back in first earth age. Lack of faith or pride are reasons for defiance of God.

Second Timothy chapter 3 tells us the man of God or woman of God will face persecution. This doesn't appeal to many people. Being Christian is not cake walk.
When Jesus was crucified. The world went back to its usual business. The disciples ran away. Jesus hung on cross on lonely day, deserted by people.
Jesus didn't need this nonsense. He did it so Christian people can repent and have obedience to God.
Discipline is the key. This is missing from many families today.
Juvenile detention center have around 70 thousand young people in prison. This is Unacceptable. Parents are responsible for teaching thier children Gods basics. Deuteronomy chapter 8 to document.
Do we the problems here ??.
If it feels good, it must be ok. No discipline!!.
Now we why many people won't take up their cross daily.

CoreyD · Aug 26, 2023

anetazo said:
What most people won't do. Matthew chapter 16:24. Take up your Cross and follow Jesus.
Let's be honest!
How many people are willing to submit to God's will??.
The factor is pride and some people are closed minded.
They don't want accountability.
Jesus knows His children. All the way back in first earth age. Lack of faith or pride are reasons for defiance of God.

Second Timothy chapter 3 tells us the man of God or woman of God will face persecution. This doesn't appeal to many people. Being Christian is not cake walk.
When Jesus was crucified. The world went back to its usual business. The disciples ran away. Jesus hung on cross on lonely day, deserted by people.
Jesus didn't need this nonsense. He did it so Christian people can repent and have obedience to God.
Discipline is the key. This is missing from many families today.
Juvenile detention center have around 70 thousand young people in prison. This is Unacceptable. Parents are responsible for teaching thier children Gods basics. Deuteronomy chapter 8 to document.
Do we the problems here ??.
If it feels good, it must be ok. No discipline!!.
Now we why many people won't take up their cross daily.

In John Chapter 6, we read that many disciples left Jesus, using his words as an excuse, but Jesus explained that the real reason was their motives. They were not really with Jesus. They just felt having the image meant something. The were mistaken.
As you said, Jesus knows his own.

DragonFox91 · Sep 23, 2023

In regards to OP:

I want to go to heaven b/c I believe I have been called by God. I believe since I've been called by God & he desires who he calls to go to heaven, I shall desire to go to heaven.

I will worship God when I get to heaven. I think that involves working somehow, & also 'church-y' worship like direct praise, singing, etc.

Yes I believe I am one of the saints b/c I believe I have been chosen by God.

Why do you want to go to heaven?
What will you do if/when you get to heaven?
Do you believe you are one of the Saints?

CoreyD · Sep 25, 2023

DragonFox91 said:
In regards to OP:

I want to go to heaven b/c I believe I have been called by God. I believe since I've been called by God & he desires who he calls to go to heaven, I shall desire to go to heaven.

I will worship God when I get to heaven. I think that involves working somehow, & also 'church-y' worship like direct praise, singing, etc.

Yes I believe I am one of the saints b/c I believe I have been chosen by God.

Why do you want to go to heaven?

What will you do if/when you get to heaven?

Do you believe you are one of the Saints?

Hey Dragon. Thanks for answering the questions.
So, I hope you don't mind me asking a few related question.

How does a person know they are called by God, to be a king and priest in the heavenly kingdom?

DragonFox91 · Sep 25, 2023

CoreyD said:
Hey Dragon. Thanks for answering the questions.
So, I hope you don't mind me asking a few related question.

How does a person know they are called by God, to be a king and priest in the heavenly kingdom?

You have the indwelling Holy Spirit

I didn’t say you will be a king or priest.

CoreyD · Sep 25, 2023

DragonFox91 said:
You have the indwelling Holy Spirit

Do you have a scripture that tells us the indwelling Holy Spirit lets a person know they are called by God?

DragonFox91 said:
I didn’t say you will be a king or priest.

Oh. Do you believe people will go to heaven who will not be kings and priests? Can you provide scriptures in support of that view?

DragonFox91 · Sep 25, 2023

CoreyD said:
Do you have a scripture that tells us the indwelling Holy Spirit lets a person know they are called by God?

Romans 8 16-17

CoreyD said:
Oh. Do you believe people will go to heaven who will not be kings and priests? Can you provide scriptures in support of that view?

I would be very hesitant on interpreting any verse that describes us receiving glory as us being kings. It's simply not there. I can't provide anything refuting it b/c it does not address it the way you believe it does. If you want to use the word king, go ahead, but it doesn't mean recieving a country to rule over & imposing taxes on people.

Your OP was about why we desire heaven & immediately you pivot to what we will be doing in heaven?
What's your angle here, Corey? What do you think? What are you trying to argue & teach me? Don't hide behind asking questions.

CoreyD · Sep 25, 2023

DragonFox91 said:
Romans 8 16-17

Well done.

DragonFox91 said:
I would be very hesitant on interpreting any verse that describes us receiving glory as us being kings. It's simply not there. I can't provide anything refuting it b/c it does not address it the way you believe it does. If you want to use the word king, go ahead, but it doesn't mean recieving a country to rule over & imposing taxes on people.

I believe you have a good knowledge of scriptures.
Of course it's not a rulership receiving a country to rule over & imposing taxes on people.
That's the various man made governments formed, which God never approved. 1 Samuel 8:4-9

Tell me a little about this post.
Which parts do not clearly describe those going to heaven as being kings - heirs with Christ, for the 1,000 years?

DragonFox91 said:
Your OP was about why we desire heaven & immediately you pivot to what we will be doing in heaven?

The OP?

The topic is : Going To Heaven
The OP reads :

Questions about going to heaven:

Why do you want to go to heaven?

What will you do if/when you get to heaven?

Do you believe you are one of the Saints?

Thanks for your response.

You're certain you are correct?

DragonFox91 said:
What's your angle here, Corey? What do you think? What are you trying to argue & teach me? Don't hide behind asking questions.

I won't attempt to hide. The questions are for teaching yes, but you get to answer them. So you become the teacher really.
I'm hoping that you all will be a good teachers. Honestly.

SeventhFisherofMen · Sep 25, 2023

d taylor said:
-

Well born again children of God who have died now and in the past and the ones who will die in the future, will go to heaven temporarily. But eventually the permanent home of all born again children of God will be the new earth and not heaven.

Where does it say we would ONLY be on the new earth? Can we not go to Heaven as we choose? I know Jehovahs witnesses teach that you only go to the New Earth

CoreyD · Sep 25, 2023

SeventhFisherofMen said:
Where does it say we would ONLY be on the new earth? Can we not go to Heaven as we choose? I know Jehovahs witnesses teach that you only go to the New Earth

I'm not aware of that being what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
While they do teach that the billions of righteous people make up the new earth, they teach that only a small number - 144,000 and 1 - Christ the king - make up the new heavens.

ViaCrucis · Sep 25, 2023

N.T. Wright puts it best, I think, when he says that the Bible is not so concerned with life after death, but instead with life after life after death. The intermediate state between death and resurrection is barely touched upon at all in the Bible. The Bible is far more interested about when, in the end, God sets everything to rights, there is the resurrection of the body, and the renewing of all creation.

Which is why when the topic of "Heaven" is brought up, I want to know if what is being spoken about is the intermediate state--being present with the Lord while absent from the body--or the ultimate state--the newness of all creation and the resurrection. As I generally use "Heaven" to refer to the biblical ideas about God's Throne, about how Christ reigns at the right hand of the Father in heaven--the transcendent and yet immanent presence of God which the angels and saints which have gone to be with the Lord dwell.

But the ultimate picture of the Bible isn't an eternity apart from the body, but the healing of all creation, the full and total deliverance of all creation from the futility of death which is found in Christ's resurrection--and thus, we too shall be raised as Christ was raised--and all creation shall experience in that newness of life. In that ultimate state, there is a sense in which heaven descends to earth, a kind of marriage of heaven and earth. We read about that future world wherein God dwells with man and man with God.

So when a person uses "heaven" are they speaking of the intermediate state, such as speaking about the saints and angels in heaven with the Lord right now; or the ultimate state of resurrection and renewal of all things with the Lord for eternity? Because "heaven" tends to be used fairly loosely to refer to both--and sometimes this causes confusion as some are under the impression that the eternal and ultimate state is to dwell in a place called "heaven" and don't even talk about bodily resurrection and God's promises concerning creation.

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