Gog and Magog in Revelation and Ezekiel

Bobgf · Mar 6, 2023

Douggg said:
Bob, the sixth seal event does not speak of a new heaven and new earth.

What happens in the sixth seal, the powers of the second heaven, i.e. the cosmos, are shaken, and pulled aside like a curtain on a stage - and the world sees the Son of man (Matthew 24:30a) - Jesus - before the throne of God in the third heaven - sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14) showing His intent to execute judgment on the evil men of the world who have been martyring the great tribulation saints (as it says the martyred saints plead for Lord Jesus to avenge their deaths in the 5th seal).

When the sixth seal happens on the 70th week timeline - is 1290 days forward from when the AoD is first placed on the temple mount, then the power of heaven will be shaken and the sign of the Son of man will appear.

The AoD will be placed on the temple mount 1335 days before Jesus descends to earth to stand on the mount of Olives, and executes judgment.

During the 45 days (on the chart below highlighted in blue) between the 1290 days and 1335 days, the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon with the (in vain) intent of stopping Jesus from executing judgment on them. Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

I made this chart to make the 1290 days and 1335 days and 45 days relationship more clear....

View attachment 328703

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Doug, thank you for your charts presenting your position on the seven seals.

Your position places many of the prophecies, like the millennium, outside of the seven seals.
So in parsing Rev 11:1-19 you see no time gap between the two witnesses and the seventh trump.

My position is that most of the prophecies, including the millennium, occur in this time gap between the two witnesses passage and the seventh trumpet passage of Revelation chapter 11.

So let's wait and see.

Bob..

Trivalee · Mar 6, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
Trivalee, the "man of sin" be revealed is not one man, so-called "THE" antichrist as premillennialists believe. Rather it is Satan being revealed and working through men in the church since he has been loosened from the bottomless pit, where the Elect can start "seeing" the apostasy a nd desolation because of them. This is how Satan is revealed. This ONLY takes place AFTER the restraining hand of the Holy Spirit that kept the Wicked at bay (in the bottomless pit) so that God could build the church... AND THEN, at the appointed time, the wicked will be loosened and be revealed through men. The ones who will do the will of Satan with all of his power in the church to deceive many.

2Th 2:7-12
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Because of the unfaithfulness of the church where professed Christians do not want to hear the truth or repent. "For this cause", God allows Satan to come into His congregation with the army of false prophets and christs (aka, army of Gog and Magog) to deceive those who have not yet seal of God (Revelation 9) so they will believe a lie, thinking they are saved or serving the Lord. This is a strong delusion that no one will get saved at this time. THerefore, God's Elect will start seeing the signs that is taking place that the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place, the church, where it suppose not, so they will be moved by God to come out of churches so they won't be deceived along with the rest if they stay. Remember Lot's wife.

I find it difficult to conceive why the scripture would refer to satan as a man. The ‘man of sin’ is not satan and since you got this wrong, it raises questions about the accuracy of the rest of your theory. Your doctrine is full of holes because satan is yet to be locked in the bottomless pit. For example, how can he still be able to prowl and seek whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8) if he’s detained now in the bottomless pit? Compare this present age (when is free) to the millennium when he is actually in the bottomless pit (Rev 4:7), and you find there’s no record of his many interferences in that age as we have now. It is regrettable that you are blind to the oxymoron you presented in your case, you said "For this cause", God allows Satan to come into His congregation with the army of false prophets and christs (aka, army of Gog and Magog) to deceive those who have not yet seal of God (Revelation 9) so they will believe a lie, thinking they are saved or serving the Lord”.

Satan has an evil trinity headed by himself, followed by the antichrist and the false prophet. Paul showcased the character of the antichrist, who will be flesh and blood like you and me but endowed with supernatural power by satan. We see the antichrist and false prophet who are men thrown alive into the lake of fire after Armageddon in Rev 19:20.

2 Thess 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If we are to believe (according to you) that satan is presently locked up in the bottomless pit, how then do you explain Rev 20:4 that occurs after Armageddon?

We are told he (the antichrist) will sit in the rebuilt temple showing himself as God – that is not satan but a mortal, albeit demonically empowered. Your doctrine is largely built on innuendo rather than what the scriptures say because there’s no concrete confirmation that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Some have posited that it is the church – so claiming without a solid fact that it is the Holy Spirit is rather a leap.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2023

Andrewn said:
This is the typical argument against Amillennialism. I disagree with you and favor the Amillennialist view that Satan is already bound. Yes, there is a lot of evil and deception in the world. Still, if you read ancient Christian writers such as St Athanasius' "On the Incarnation of the Word," you realize that Christ has accomplished a lot and that the world has changed after his incarnation.

What Christ accomplished and Satan bound is two totally different and distinct phenomenon.

No verse states Satan was bound at the Cross. Revelation 19 is not the Cross event, nor is Revelation 20. Revelation 20 does not go back to the first century. That is a taught private interpretation, not implied nor recommended from Scripture itself.

Amil have to change the chronological order to even get to the point they can symbolize their interpretation of the first resurrection. Then they find verses to "help explain" their interpretation of a first resurrection. Then they avoid or contradict all Scripture that explains a first resurrection. John 3 explains the first and second birth, death, and resurrection.

The classic example of a verse Amil use calls Jesus the firstborn. The verse never states Jesus the first resurrection. We know that the resurrection of Christ was a first resurrection type, that is physical and bodily. We do not need Amil to point that out. Then Amil do not even accept the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is even physical. How can you have a physical 1,000 years without physical people? Obviously Amil do away with the physical aspect of the resurrection entirely, as the beginning of their millennium.

They literally do away with a physical thousand years. They claim it is only symbolic. Is Revelation 19 a symbolic war?

TribulationSigns · Mar 6, 2023

Andrewn said:
Would you explain again your view of the 1260, 1290, and 1335 days?

I am busy getting ready for a trip to Arizona for a week. For now, I will provide the chart below. It is a covenant week God confirmed with HIs people, New Testament Congregation, where Christians keep the Feast of Tabernacles which the Old Testament was only a type of! And remember the days are NOT literal that we can figure out with the calendar as Douggg does. I will explain more when I come back.

The New Covenant With Congregation Israel!
Confirmed by Christ's Death

DavidPT · Mar 6, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
I am busy getting ready for a trip to Arizona for a week. For now, I will provide the chart below. It is a covenant week God confirmed with HIs people, New Testament Congregation, where Christians keep the Feast of Tabernacles which the Old Testament was only a type of! And remember the days are NOT literal that we can figure out with the calendar as Douggg does. I will explain more when I come back.

The New Covenant With Congregation Israel!
Confirmed by Christ's Death

Have a nice safe trip. Looking forward to you explaining this further once you have returned. In the meantime though, unfortunately I can't make sense out of what the chart trying to convey. So, I guess I will just have to be patient and wait rather than speculating as to what it is trying to convey.

DavidPT · Mar 6, 2023

Timtofly said:
Amil have to change the chronological order to even get to the point they can symbolize their interpretation of the first resurrection. Then they find verses to "help explain" their interpretation of a first resurrection. Then they avoid or contradict all Scripture that explains a first resurrection. John 3 explains the first and second birth, death, and resurrection.

The classic example of a verse Amil use calls Jesus the firstborn. The verse never states Jesus the first resurrection. We know that the resurrection of Christ was a first resurrection type, that is physical and bodily. We do not need Amil to point that out. Then Amil do not even accept the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is even physical. How can you have a physical 1,000 years without physical people? Obviously Amil do away with the physical aspect of the resurrection entirely, as the beginning of their millennium.

The way I tend to reason some of these things myself is like such, right or wrong.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There are 2 types of resurrection events. One is involving those that have done good, the other is involving those that have done evil. And that the former always precedes the other every single time. IOW, until every single person that fits the former resurrection category are resurrected, none in the latter category are resurrected in the meantime. Therefore, it makes it the first resurrection in more ways than one.

For example, Christ's resurrection. Obviously, His resurrection fits the former. Were any in the latter category also resurrected at the time? No.

Next let's consider these.

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

When these are resurrected were there also those in the 2nd category that were resurrected as well? No.

Next let's consider these.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

When these are resurrected will there also be those in the 2nd category that will be resurrected as well? Meaning at that moment in time? No.

And finally, let's consider these.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When the dead in Christ rise first, which should also include everyone saved involving OT times, since Christ's sacrifice not only saves those post that, it also saves those prior to that sacrifice, will there also be those in the 2nd category that will be resurrected as well? Meaning at that moment in time? No.

There you go then, not one single person pertaining to the latter category is ever resurrected before all of those pertaining to the first category are. In Revelation 20 it only involves 2 categories of resurrection events, as does John 5:28-29. And that Revelation 20 informs us that every single person that has part in the first resurrection, they are resurrected before that of anyone who doesn't live again until the thousand years are finished.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2023

saint2 said:
Let's see if I got this right?

In the last days, God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh. So in these last days, just before the GWT Judgment, God's Spirit is now indwelling all flesh, numbering as the sand of the sea.

Then Satan suddenly pops up out of his prison and is promptly able to deceives all these Spirit led nations, to follow after Gog of Magog, and to war against the Jews Revelation 20:7

And this is after thesse nations have first beaten all their weapons into plowshares so as to learn war no more. Will the nations now beat their plowshares back into swords to go after Israel?

Is this the kingdom Christ hands over to his Father 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ?

What's wrong with this picture?

The last days would be the last 3 days of the week of the Lord. About 3,000 years.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2023

Douggg said:
Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 - Satan's first attempt to destroy the end times Israel and Jerusalem, using those nations.

Gog/Magog of Revelation 20, a thousand years later - Satan's second attempt to destroy Israel and Jerusalem, using those same nations of his first attempt.

Gog and Magog are not nations. That is the historical point you are missing in the whole use of the term Gog and Magog.

That term would apply to a Gentile nation that lost it's status, like Israel is called the lost sheep scattered around the world. Gog or Magog has not been a nation since way before Assyria. Assyria was not even a recognized nation after a certain point, yet there are several hundred thousand national Assyrians still alive today that have not had a nation a lot longer than the scattered sheep of Israel. In fact Abraham was promised the land that we would have called the nation of Assyria. Syria is just a part of the former Assyrian nation. Syria is not an Assyrian nation and probably has more Gog and Magog living in Syria than Assyrians

The Palestinians are probably more representative of Gog and Magog than people care to admit. There will never be a nation in the future called Gog and Magog. They will go by their current terminology. Only the first century readers would understand the OT usage of Gog and Magog. The original kingdoms can be found in modern day Turkey, but the people were pushed out past the caucus mountains by Alexander the Great. It would be harder to find any people admitting that heritage than the lost tribes of Israel.

Timtofly · Mar 6, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
Right now it's just his soul that is in heaven, so, again, I'm not finding your argument here to be compelling.

Explain why souls went from Abraham's bosom to Paradise because of the Cross, but still a soul. Why not let souls in Paradise who had faith? Nothing changes about a soul.

The only thing that changed was that there was now a physical resurrection available because of the Cross. Matthew 27 claims the OT came out of their graves in physical bodies.

So why are you denying that physical resurrection, when clearly you teach your millennium started at the Cross? The point of the Millennium is a physical resurrection.

They have that permanent incorruptible physical body. They are currently seated with Christ serving God night and day in a physical temple in a physical Paradise. They are just not glorified. The Second Coming is the point of the entire body of Christ being glorified. Revelation 7:9-17 has been their reality since the Cross in that Millennium of yours. They have been with the Lamb in physical bodies. Why would souls do all that physical stuff with a physical Lamb of God, Jesus Christ the King, and lack a physical body?

Only those alive and remain need that permanent incorruptible physical body.

anetazo · Mar 6, 2023

I studied under pastor Arnold murray and his son Dennis. I can think for myself, but I agree on their sound doctrine. Ezekiel chapter 38, Russia and Islamic brotherhood will sneak attack America through Alaska. God will destroy them at Canadian mountains. Isaiah chapter 63 correlates with Ezekiel chapter 38. I know what I'm talking about. I'm well used hand by Jesus. Pastor dennis murray is old hand. I understand China is building super highway into Russia. Supposedly to reach near Russia ocean, near Alaska. Antichrist will strengthen Russia at the 6th trump. Satan is heathen and is Russia. Theirs false teachings that Russia and Arab countries will invade tiny Israel, which is judah. America is Israel. Lost tribes of Israel went through caucasian mountains to Europe. Then England. Many came to America in the 1600s. Some people have blinders on, and can't see the truth. Isaiah 63, Ezekiel chapter 38, Russia and Islamic brotherhood will attack America near future. God will destroy them. 7th trump starts the millennium.

Bobgf · Mar 7, 2023

Douggg said:
What is your source of the term "Olam Haba"? I think you are using a term created by the rabbi's of Judaism who do not respect the information found in the New Testament. The Jews (Judaism) hold to a general view of the messianic age followed by the world to come (their Olam Haba term).

Christians have the New Testament, as well as, the Tanach (the Jewish term, an acronym, the Jews use for their bible, which Christians call the Old Testament).

In the Christian bible containing both the New Testament and Old testament - after the Great White Throne Judgement is the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, which those are for eternity.

So, I would guard against using the term Olam Haba - because it is a rabbinic term - used without respect to the information Jesus gave in the New Testament. And instead, as a Christian, would use the collective term - New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

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The chronological order is....

1. The Gog/Magog event, followed by the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, which begin as the rider on the white horse (the Antichrist) confirms the covenant in Daniel 9:27. Creating the perception of a false messianic age - that shortly ends when he claims to have achieved God-hood. Shortly followed by the great tribulation period.

2. Then, at the end of the 7 years is Armageddon - i.e. the world gathered to make war of Jesus, urged by the beast (i.e. the former Antichrist), the false prophet , and Satan.

3. The Revelation 19 events then take place - of Jesus's return to this earth - executing judgement on all who have gathered to make war on Him. The great tribulation period - over.

4. Then followed by Jesus's thousand year millennium reign on this present earth. Known as the messianic age.

5. Which ends with the final Satan lead rebellion of Revelation 20 to destroy Israel and Jerusalem. Which will include the former Gog/Magog nations of Satan's first attempt to destroy the end times nation of Israel, Jerusalem of Ezekiel 38-39.

6. Then, after God quickly puts down that final rebellion, is the destruction of this present earth and heaven above it.

7. Then the Great White Throne Judgement.

8. Then the New Heaven, the New Earth, and New Jerusalem. Eternity.

Hi Doug,

Doesn't your chronology show that more people are saved before Christ returns than after he returns?

Before Jesus comes, the great multitude that no one could number are saved right after the sixth seal, Rev 7:9.

Then after Jesus comes, the nation's numbering as the sand of the sea are lost to Satan, Rev 20:7-9.

Does that make sense, John 3:17 ?

Bob..

Timtofly · Mar 7, 2023

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Fire coming down from heaven and destroying the ones who gather against the camp of the saints and the beloved city (New Jerusalem) is not the same as being cast into the lake of fire, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. And the beloved city (new Jerusalem) will need to have already come down from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2) in order for it to be surrounded by the armies of Gog-Magog.

The New Jerusalem is not the beloved city. It does not descend until after Satan is cast into the LOF. You don't agree with nor take an Amil position on that point. Amil don't claim the New Jerusalem is the city being attacked.

Amil claim each and every believer is the "beloved city" being attacked momentarily in a twinkling of an eye at the Second Coming.

In Amil thought there is no Gog or Magog. It would be like your neighborhood for no reason at all, except being spiritually decieved, start killing all the Christians they can find, while at the same instance the Second Coming happens. No one crosses the breadth of the earth in contradiction to Scripture, because this would defeat the purpose of your neighbors suddenly attacking you. They would not travel thousands of miles to attack another neighborhood. That would be logistically impossible for every single neighborhood to travel across the earth to a different neighborhood in some sort of coordinated event.

Douggg · Mar 7, 2023

saint2 said:
Hi Doug,

Doesn't your chronology show that more people are saved before Christ returns than after he returns?

Before Jesus comes, the great multitude that no one could number are saved right after the sixth seal, Rev 7:9.

Then after Jesus comes, the nation's numbering as the sand of the sea are lost to Satan, Rev 20:7-9.

Does that make sense, John 3:17 ?

Bob..

Hi Bob, I don't know, in terms of before Jesus returns compared to after Jesus returns. But your thinking seems reasonable to me.

btw, the great multitude in Revelation 7:9 are them saved during the great tribulation, see Revelation 7:14.

Following Revelation 6, Revelation 7 starts afresh a new vision, after the first six seals were revealed, what they contain. Revelation 7:9 is not implying that the great multitude are saved after the sixth seal event.

Timtofly · Mar 7, 2023

Trivalee said:
Rev 6:13-14 are figurative and cannot be rendered as literal. It makes zero sense to believe that the stars of heaven literally fell to earth, that heaven departed as a scroll or that the mountains literally moved out of their places either. If you believe that, you must explain which heaven fled from the face of the Lord in Rev 20:11.

But whatever you do, please don't tell your readers that heaven fled and came back (or perhaps replaced) only to flee again in the age to come at the GWTJ. That will be junk doctrine, sir!

Of course these verses have a literal meaning. The stars are symbolic terms for the angels. There are no physical stars at all. The angels are the only creations in the firmament. They shine their light to make up the heavens we know today. When they all come to earth there will not be any lights in the sky. That is the new heaven. No stars, or a totally different arrangement of light. The angels were created on the 4th Day to be the lights in the sky. Angels are physically created beings with the task of being physical lights. We are not looking at spiritual lights faking reality. We are looking at angels whose job is to be a physical light.

When the heavens roll up as a scroll, that is symbolic for the angels coming to earth and their performance placed on hold. On earth they will appear as humans as always.

Timtofly · Mar 7, 2023

Trivalee said:
An interesting theory indeed. Please clarify, are they flesh and blood or not?

Was Adam and Eve flesh and blood prior to Adam's disobedience?

What is it with flesh and blood?

Paul stated corruptible and incorruptible. An incorruptible body is no different than a corruptible one when it comes to flesh and blood. A corruptible body could never nor ever be allowed in Paradise. Flesh and blood was always in Paradise or the Garden. Flesh and blood does not mean corruptible. The point is no one is born with an incorruptible body now, because we are all genetic copies of Adam and Eve in their corruptible state.

Those in the Millennium will have flesh and blood bodies that are permanent and incorruptible. They will have offspring born in their image without sin natures. These are those beheaded who are given new permanent incorruptible physical bodies. The sheep and wheat from the final harvest while Jesus and the angels are on the earth after the Second Coming are also changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 7, 2023

Timtofly said:
Explain why souls went from Abraham's bosom to Paradise because of the Cross, but still a soul. Why not let souls in Paradise who had faith? Nothing changes about a soul.

The only thing that changed was that there was now a physical resurrection available because of the Cross. Matthew 27 claims the OT came out of their graves in physical bodies.

So why are you denying that physical resurrection, when clearly you teach your millennium started at the Cross? The point of the Millennium is a physical resurrection.

They have that permanent incorruptible physical body. They are currently seated with Christ serving God night and day in a physical temple in a physical Paradise. They are just not glorified. The Second Coming is the point of the entire body of Christ being glorified. Revelation 7:9-17 has been their reality since the Cross in that Millennium of yours. They have been with the Lamb in physical bodies. Why would souls do all that physical stuff with a physical Lamb of God, Jesus Christ the King, and lack a physical body?

Only those alive and remain need that permanent incorruptible physical body.

Scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will rise and their bodies will be changed at the last trumpet when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-23,50-54; 1 Thess 4:14-17) and He has not yet returned. If you want to insist on contradicting what scripture teaches about that then that is your choice.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 7, 2023

DavidPT said:
If we are posting in a section of this board involving Eschatology, and that some of us perceive that Ezekiel 38-39 is Eschatological, and that one of our passions is Eschatology, why shouldn't we want to rack our brains trying to figure out how Ezekiel 38-39 fits in the scheme of things? The fact these things are written in the OT, and that God was the speaker in these verses, pertaining to Ezekiel 38-39 in this case, that obviously means God finds these things to be important, to be relevant, otherwise, why did God even bother bringing any of these things up to begin with?

Did you not read my post? God has made it much easier on us by giving us the New Testament that sheds light on the Old Testament prophecies. Why not make it easier on yourself and allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament for you? Do you see anything in the New Testament that supports your current understanding of Ezekiel 38-39? I don't. So, that should raise a red flag for you.

DavidPT said:
We can't rely on one testament alone and be satisfied that that is all there is needed to know.

When it comes to Bible prophecy, the New Testament sheds light on the Old Testament prophecies for us. That is undeniable. For example, would we have any idea that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed apply to Jesus and those who belong to Jesus if it wasn't for the New Testament? Why do you not want to allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament prophecies for you? Do you not trust the New Testament authors to have a better understanding of those prophecies than we do?

DavidPT said:
In their mind, they have the OT, therefore, everything needed to be known, they already have it. Therefore, they don't need the NT as well. When I would think that any Christian would agree that both testaments are needed in order to see the bigger picture.

The NT sheds light on the OT, not the other way around, so I'm not really seeing your point here.

DavidPT said:
And what about in Matthew 24, for instance? Where Jesus says to consider what Daniel said? Did Daniel say that in the NT or in the OT? If the NT only sheds light on the OT, and not vice-versa as well, wonder why Jesus didn't fully realize that, the fact He indicated one needs to consider what Daniel recorded in the OT in order to shed further light on what He is meaning in Matthew 24?

In this case Jesus shed more light on what Daniel wrote about, but told them to also consider what Daniel wrote. But, Jesus did not contradict anything that Daniel wrote. What I'm trying to tell you is that there is nothing written in the New Testament that supports your understanding of Ezekiel 38-39. That is a major red flag that needs to be taken into account. I don't know why you can't understand things like this.

DavidPT said:
Let's face it. Daniel had way more things to say about some of these things than Jesus did at the time.

Who was more clear about what would happen, Daniel or Jesus? Clearly, Jesus was. He certainly shed more light on what Daniel wrote about than the other way around.

DavidPT said:
Which should mean that the OT is shedding further light on what Jesus said in the Discourse pertaining to this. What Jesus said was compressed. What Daniel said was detailed, thus filling in some of the missing details. In order to fill in the missing details, one can't just go to Daniel ch 9 alone and think that explains everything. One also needs to consider Daniel 7, 8, 10, 11, and 12. And then we still need to factor in 2 Thessalonians 2, the book of Revelation, to name a few, and how some of that relates to what is recorded in the book of Daniel, and what Jesus said in the Discourse involving this subject.

Anyway, right or wrong, that's my mindset pertaining to these things.

But, a vast majority of the time the New Testament paints a clearer picture than the Old Testament prophecies do. Also, you should never interpret an Old Testament prophecy in such a way that contradicts New Testament scripture. But, that is exactly what you do with passages like Ezekiel 38-39. You try to make all other scripture fit into your understanding of Ezekiel 38-39 when you should be trying to make Ezekiel 38-39 fit into what is taught in other, more straightforward scripture. This is a concept that you clearly don't understand.

Our doctrine should be founded on clear, straightforward scripture. And then the more difficult passages like Ezekiel 38-39 should be interpreted in light of more straightforward scripture and we should be careful to not interpret passages like that in such a way that contradicts any other scripture. But, this does not seem to be of any concern to you.

Timtofly · Mar 7, 2023

DavidPT said:
Have a nice safe trip. Looking forward to you explaining this further once you have returned. In the meantime though, unfortunately I can't make sense out of what the chart trying to convey. So, I guess I will just have to be patient and wait rather than speculating as to what it is trying to convey.

His chart seems like the current church age, according to his Amil eschatology. He said time is not literal, so would represent the time between the first and second advents.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 7, 2023

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Once I've told you many times, that should settle it in your mind. Forget what Jesus said about Daniel and forget it if anything in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the Revelation draws from anything in Daniel or Ezekiel.

That is not at all what I was saying. I'm not saying to completely disregard the OT prophecies. But, we should allow NT passages to interpret Daniel and Ezekiel for us rather than interpreting them in such a way that contradicts what is taught in the New Testament.

Timtofly · Mar 7, 2023

DavidPT said:
The way I tend to reason some of these things myself is like such, right or wrong.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There are 2 types of resurrection events. One is involving those that have done good, the other is involving those that have done evil. And that the former always precedes the other every single time. IOW, until every single person that fits the former resurrection category are resurrected, none in the latter category are resurrected in the meantime. Therefore, it makes it the first resurrection in more ways than one.

For example, Christ's resurrection. Obviously, His resurrection fits the former. Were any in the latter category also resurrected at the time? No.

Next let's consider these.

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

When these are resurrected were there also those in the 2nd category that were resurrected as well? No.

Next let's consider these.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

When these are resurrected will there also be those in the 2nd category that will be resurrected as well? Meaning at that moment in time? No.

And finally, let's consider these.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When the dead in Christ rise first, which should also include everyone saved involving OT times, since Christ's sacrifice not only saves those post that, it also saves those prior to that sacrifice, will there also be those in the 2nd category that will be resurrected as well? Meaning at that moment in time? No.

There you go then, not one single person pertaining to the latter category is ever resurrected before all of those pertaining to the first category are. In Revelation 20 it only involves 2 categories of resurrection events, as does John 5:28-29. And that Revelation 20 informs us that every single person that has part in the first resurrection, they are resurrected before that of anyone who doesn't live again until the thousand years are finished.

Jesus repeats that twice. In one version, Jesus claims the hour has already arrived.

The physical resurrection was a reality when Lazarus physically came out of his grave when Jesus called him.

No one wants to accept the physical resurrection is ongoing. But when he calls the lost out their graves it will be the last call at the GWT.

Jesus never said once there would be a single 60 minute hour when both types are physically raised at the same time.

The spiritual change from death and sheol happens at the last hour so they can be thrown into the LOF.

The physical resurrection has been ongoing since Lazarus walked out of his grave physically.

Gog and Magog in Revelation and Ezekiel

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