God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

[Doveaman]

Without God's Law we have no knowledge of SIN. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a Savior. If we have no need of a Savior then we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost.

What about those who already have a Savior, do they still need a Law to lead them to that Savior?

You argument is logical, but it's not biblical.

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12).

You are also making a very strange argument.

You begin with the claim that the letter of the law (10 commandments) is the foundation of the New Covenant, and then you make a very long argument using scriptures that contradict your argument.

You say this:

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God...It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12).

and then you quote this:

2Co 3:6,
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament <COVENANT>; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

You say the letter of 10 commandments is the foundation of the New Covenant and then you quote that the New Covenant is not based on the letter of 10 commandments.

Your argument is contradicting your argument.

You then say this:

Absolutely they do according to Gal 3:19-25. This is talking about the role of God's Law as our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith v24.

and then you ignored this:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25).

You quoted the earlier part of the verses which says "the law was our schoolmaster", but then you ignored the latter part of the verses which says "we are no longer under a schoolmaster".

Your arguments are long but they are not consistent. You keep contradicting yourself.

 

[Doveaman]

I am showing context for the discussion. If you were actually correct in your wild claim that this is not in fact exposing the key glaring flaw in your statement - then you would actually want your well stated case being shown - as often as possible.

We both know what is going on here.

No, we both don't know what is going on here.

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

They are not.

The written letter at Sinai was a law that brings condemnation. The eternal law of the Spirit is a law that brings life:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

There is no "Law of the LETTER" in that entire Gal 3 quote you pasted ... and we both know it.

No, YOU don't know it.

The entire chapter of Galatians 3 is about the Old Covenant law that was based on the 10 commandments, which Paul says is now an unemployed schoolmaster:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25).

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

No, I am offering clarity between God and His Law -- where there is none on your part.

Less creative writing ... more Bible please.
"old covenant of the Letter" is your phrase in creative writing - a phrase not found in the Bible.

Maybe you need a different Bible:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

You just need some basic common sense to recognize that Paul is talking about the letter of the law that was engraved in letters on stone -- the 10 commandments.

in the actual Bible the term "letter of the LAW" is merely "the LAW in written form" and is the SAME as the LAW as we see in the ONE place where it actually IS in the Bible.

Talk about creative writing.

The letter of the law is the letters of the 10 commandments that were engraved in letters on stone, and which brought death.

Denial doesn't help your argument.

Romans 2
And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The LAW is the same - it is just a reference as to who has it in written text form and who does not when it comes to "Letter of the LAW"

Nope.

There is the righteous requirements of the law (Love) and there is the letter of the law (10 commandments).

The 10 commandments are not the fulfillment of God's law. Love is the fulfillment of God's law: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:9-10).

Do not take God's name in vain - in WRITTEN Form would be had by chosen people of God - who were given that law in WRITING. IT does not change the law - to say "Well Vikings were not given that law IN Writing by God Himself at Sinai".

The Vikings had the righteous requirements of the law (Love), not the letter:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

We transgress the law, not by violating its letter, but by violating its righteous requirements to love others as ourselves.

You have created a division where the Bible has none.

Actually, I am creating clarity where the Bible has.

It is a sin to take God's name in vain NO MATTER that it is not the Vikings but rather Israel that gets the "written LAW" at Sinai.

On that we can agree.

Those who obey the righteous requirements of the law to love God will not take His name in vain.

 

[listed]

What about those who already have a Savior, do they still need a Law to lead them to that Savior?

You argument is logical, but it's not biblical.
You are also making a very strange argument.

You begin with the claim that the letter of the law (10 commandments) is the foundation of the New Covenant, and then you make a very long argument using scriptures that contradict your argument.

You say this:

and then you quote this:
You say the letter of 10 commandments is the foundation of the New Covenant and then you quote that the New Covenant is not based on the letter of 10 commandments.

Your argument is contradicting your argument.

You then say this:
and then you ignored this:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25).

You quoted the earlier part of the verses which says "the law was our schoolmaster", but then you ignored the latter part of the verses which says "we are no longer under a schoolmaster".

Your arguments are long but they are not consistent. You keep contradicting yourself.

Excellent!

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hello listed.

The true context of Matthew 19 is about Jesus speaking to the Jews only. If you think that the Gentiles had the written law, then you are incorrect. You quotation from John 15:10 relates the the commandments that the Father gave to the Son, not the commandments that God gave to the nation of Israel.

The text in Exodus announces to anyone who wishes to read the text, God made the covenant with Israel and not with the Gentiles.

People are law breakers not law keepers, that is the real lesson we are taught in the Old Testament. If you believe that you can keep the law, then you believe that you are not like other people.

The law is pointing you to Jesus for your salvation, the law was made for the unrighteous.

Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?

You must be under a great delusion if you honestly think, that you can achieve salvation through obedience to the law.

Regarding Matthew 19 and your idea that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews, I don't agree. Whenever Jesus taught on a subject He always gave the corrected, and more importantly the spiritual insight to the laws which the Jews never had. These then became the commandments of Jesus kept through love and the power of the Holy Spirit. It is interesting that He only taught on commandments relating to one another, like to the rich young ruler. James does the same, but they are encompassed in "love your neighbor as yourself." The first four commandments of the Father towards God are encompassed now in "believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ" - (who is God).

1 John 3:23.

This is why whenever He was questioned about breaking the Sabbath, He let them know the Sabbath had to do with Him - He is Lord of the Sabbath. This is the spiritual insight of the Sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Bob,

Hope you are well. Thanks again for your post. Here are some more comments for your consideration. Although from your last post it does seem to me that you have made up your mind already on what you believe.

To go through each point of your post is a tedious task. I have chosen to discuss the points I either do not understand or have differences with your answers. I do not understand why you have not addressed the verses in 2Cor 3:7-11 that tell us that the 10 commandments were temporary commands and those verses are written in past tense. Yes, the chapter is about the new covenant, but the verses I need for you to discuss are the ones that are telling us that followers of Jesus are not under the 10 commandments because they were a temporary guide for one nation, Israel which no longer exists. Why are you not willing to get to the point?

I have noticed that when you do respond to my posts that you only post part of what I say for each point and comment on that and not the full content which includes the context. Maybe this is accidental? I believe this can lead to confusion on the side of the reader and also in regards to your understanding and interpretation of what I am sharing with you. If you can quote my full point(s) instead of half of the point(s) in the future it would be greatly appreciated .

2 Cor 3:7-11 has been fully addressed in the proceeding posts (post 325 and post 339) to my mind. There is 9 scriptures in 335 and 21 scriptures in 339 including context verses describing how 2Cor 3:7-11 is referring to the New Covenant. Your question in post 337 was "I asked you to explain how you have come to the conclusion as to why you believe 2Cor 3:7-11 is referring to the new covenant. Please give me a straight forward answer that I can understand." I believe if you re-read what is being shared above you will see that your question has been fully answered through the Word of God. What is it that you feel has not been addressed or are you asking a new question in relation to 2 Cor 3:7-11?

I believe the verses you are using to tell me that we are still under all the laws given to Israel, old covenant, are not telling the whole story. For instance you Quote Heb 8 and 10 concerning the new covenant, but you didn't tell me: 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: ......

Bob, maybe there is a misunderstanding between us on what is being said. Firstly, I am not telling you that we are under the laws of Israel and the old covenant. I am not sure if you have misread what I am sharing or not or if I have not written my posts clear enough for you. I am also in agreement that the new Covenant is superior to the Old and we are no longer under the Old Covenant as this all pointed to Jesus.

Jesus is mediator of the new covenant and he is the one who wrote that He kept His Father' commands and we are to keep His commands. Since Jesus is the mediator and His command is for us to love one another as He loves us, that is what the new covenant is about. That is what is written on new covenant believers hearts. If law that brought death is written on our hearts, 613 laws of the old covenant, then You SDAs need to revamp your doctrines to include a bunch of rules. If you are correct in that the new covenant is the same as the 613 rules of the old one then how could you tell me in one of your posts that the law of Moses was fulfilled at the Cross. If you believe the old covenant was just the 10 commandments then you need to be advised that it really is the book of the law which contained the 10 commandments. Without the book of the law the ten could not have had any teeth as how to deal with the commands. I know you believe you have an air tight theory concerning Col 2, but you have to come to grips with the facts I have presented. So far you have glossed over what I present and I will not take the time to evaluate your Col2 theory until I get some straight answers from the straight forward texts I have presented.

I see where the misunderstanding lies between us now. You believe God's Law (10 commandments) are part of the ceremonial laws of Moses. Actually they are not and I will share with you why I believe they are not through the Word of God. Lets get to it. God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not the same) role is it did in the Old Covenant as it now does in the New Covenant and that is;

(1) God's Law (10 commandments) is the work of God alone. The purpose of God's Law; was to point out sin and the penalty of sin (death). It was never a cure for sin just like it is in the New Covenant. It is the foundation of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and the very foundation of the Judgement that each one of us will be judged by in the last days. God wrote it with his own finger on two tables of stone. God spoke it himself personally to His people for all to hear. God separated His Law from all the laws written in the book of Moses and placed it in the Ark of the Covenant. God's Law is forever.

Scripture proof:
Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 31:18; Ex 20:1-22; Deut 10:5; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Heb 7:19; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1John 3:5-8; 1John 2:3-4; Ecc 3:14

(2) On the other hand we have the laws of Moses (civil, Levitical and ceremonial and health laws). The purpose of the laws of Moses; was to describe God's plan of salvation from sin. The purpose of the laws of Moses was to provide a cure for sin through animal sacrifices, food and drink offerings, annual feast days connected to New Moons etc. The laws of Moses where a shadow of things to come that finished at the cross. These laws were the work of Moses. They were written by Moses as he was inspired by God for God's people under the Old Covenant. Moses wrote all these laws in a book. the laws of Moses were spoken by Moses. The book of Moses was placed in the side of the Ark of the Covenant and separated from God's Law.

Scripture proof:
Lev 1:1-13; Lev 23:1-44; Num 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deut 24:10-11; Ex 24:3; Deut 31:24-26; Col 2:16-16; Heb 10:1; Eph 2:14-15; Lev 4; 5; 6; Heb 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29

The Law of God (10 commandments) are the work of God himself (Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 32:16; Ex 20:1-22; Ex 31:18; Deut 4:13) God Law was to be separate from everything else (including the laws of Moses). God’s Law was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant the laws of Moses were written in a book and placed at the side of the Ark of the Covenant (Deut 10:5; Deut 31:24; 25). Whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). It is the foundation of the Judgement were all of us will be Judged in the last days (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31) God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12; ) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). Still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc, etc.) God’s people obey it through faith (Rev 14:12).

I pray that you may take the time to consider the scriptures provided from the Word of God above and they may be a blessing to you.

Now to address the thought you presented that we Christians are part of Israel is pure nonsense.

Bob what you say here is a little confusing to me. It is like saying only some of God's Word is for us and other parts of God's Word is not. God's Word tells as that all scripture is for the "believer" (see Matt 4:4; 2Tim 3:16; 2:15) You only quoted a few of the verses I shared with you but left out the ones stating that the New Covenant is for "Israel" and also the origin of where the Word Israel comes from in Gen 32:28. I will not go through all the scriptures again as I have done this already in post 339. It is very clear from God's Word that the "Believer" is spiritual "Israel" God's people today. I will just leave all the scriptures here for you to re-consider or for others to view including the ones that were left out (Heb 8:10-12; 10:14-17; Jer 31:31-34; Gal 3:28-29; Col 3:11; Rom 10:11-13; Rom 2:28-29)

The new covenant is all about salvation. Keeping old covenant ritual laws have no bearing on our salvation. the ritual Sabbath of Israel has no bearing on our salvation. To try to prove that it has with your theory is not Biblical.

This is what I agree with and not saying any different The annual ritual Sabbaths in the laws of Moses however are different to the 7th Day Sabbath of God's commandments. This is what post 325 demonstrates. You should read it you. I believe there is a blessing in there for you. I may have to leave our discussion for a while. Hope you do not mind. I have some work and family duties and would like to share some thoughts in regards to the OP.

To Him who loves us and wased us in His own Blood, to him be all glory forever and ever because while we were yet sinners Christ died for us
LGW

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hi Bob,

Hope you are well. Thanks again for your post. Here are some more comments for your consideration. Although from your last post it does seem to me that you have made up your mind already on what you believe.



I have noticed that when you do respond to my posts that you only post part of what I say for each point and comment on that and not the full content which includes the context. Maybe this is accidental? I believe this can lead to confusion on the side of the reader and also in regards to your understanding and interpretation of what I am sharing with you. If you can quote my full point(s) instead of half of the point(s) in the future it would be greatly appreciated .

2 Cor 3:7-11 has been fully addressed in the proceeding posts (post 325 and post 339) to my mind. There is 9 scriptures in 335 and 21 scriptures in 339 including context verses describing how 2Cor 3:7-11 is referring to the New Covenant. Your question in post 337 was "I asked you to explain how you have come to the conclusion as to why you believe 2Cor 3:7-11 is referring to the new covenant. Please give me a straight forward answer that I can understand." I believe if you re-read what is being shared above you will see that your question has been fully answered through the Word of God. What is it that you feel has not been addressed or are you asking a new question in relation to 2 Cor 3:7-11?



Bob, maybe there is a misunderstanding between us on what is being said. Firstly, I am not telling you that we are under the laws of Israel and the old covenant. I am not sure if you have misread what I am sharing or not or if I have not written my posts clear enough for you. I am also in agreement that the new Covenant is superior to the Old and we are no longer under the Old Covenant as this all pointed to Jesus.



I see where the misunderstanding lies between us now. You believe God's Law (10 commandments) are part of the ceremonial laws of Moses. Actually they are not and I will share with you why I believe they are not through the Word of God. Lets get to it. God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not the same) role is it did in the Old Covenant as it now does in the New Covenant and that is;

(1) God's Law (10 commandments) is the work of God alone. The purpose of God's Law; was to point out sin and the penalty of sin (death). It was never a cure for sin just like it is in the New Covenant. It is the foundation of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and the very foundation of the Judgement that each one of us will be judged by in the last days. God wrote it with his own finger on two tables of stone. God spoke it himself personally to His people for all to hear. God separated His Law from all the laws written in the book of Moses and placed it in the Ark of the Covenant. God's Law is forever.

Scripture proof:
Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 31:18; Ex 20:1-22; Deut 10:5; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Heb 7:19; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1John 3:5-8; 1John 2:3-4; Ecc 3:14

(2) On the other hand we have the laws of Moses (civil, Levitical and ceremonial and health laws). The purpose of the laws of Moses; was to describe God's plan of salvation from sin. The purpose of the laws of Moses was to provide a cure for sin through animal sacrifices, food and drink offerings, annual feast days connected to New Moons etc. The laws of Moses where a shadow of things to come that finished at the cross. These laws were the work of Moses. They were written by Moses as he was inspired by God for God's people under the Old Covenant. Moses wrote all these laws in a book. the laws of Moses were spoken by Moses. The book of Moses was placed in the side of the Ark of the Covenant and separated from God's Law.

Scripture proof:
Lev 1:1-13; Lev 23:1-44; Num 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deut 24:10-11; Ex 24:3; Deut 31:24-26; Col 2:16-16; Heb 10:1; Eph 2:14-15; Lev 4; 5; 6; Heb 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29

The Law of God (10 commandments) are the work of God himself (Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 32:16; Ex 20:1-22; Ex 31:18; Deut 4:13) God Law was to be separate from everything else (including the laws of Moses). God’s Law was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant the laws of Moses were written in a book and placed at the side of the Ark of the Covenant (Deut 10:5; Deut 31:24; 25). Whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). It is the foundation of the Judgement were all of us will be Judged in the last days (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31) God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12; ) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). Still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc, etc.) God’s people obey it through faith (Rev 14:12).

I pray that you may take the time to consider the scriptures provided from the Word of God above and they may be a blessing to you.



Bob what you say here is a little confusing to me. It is like saying only some of God's Word is for us and other parts of God's Word is not. God's Word tells as that all scripture is for the "believer" (see Matt 4:4; 2Tim 3:16; 2:15) You only quoted a few of the verses I shared with you but left out the ones stating that the New Covenant is for "Israel" and also the origin of where the Word Israel comes from in Gen 32:28. I will not go through all the scriptures again as I have done this already in post 339. It is very clear from God's Word that the "Believer" is spiritual "Israel" God's people today. I will just leave all the scriptures here for you to re-consider or for others to view including the ones that were left out (Heb 8:10-12; 10:14-17; Jer 31:31-34; Gal 3:28-29; Col 3:11; Rom 10:11-13; Rom 2:28-29)



This is what I agree with and not saying any different The annual ritual Sabbaths in the laws of Moses however are different to the 7th Day Sabbath of God's commandments. This is what post 325 demonstrates. You should read it you. I believe there is a blessing in there for you. I may have to leave our discussion for a while. Hope you do not mind. I have some work and family duties and would like to share some thoughts in regards to the OP.

To Him who loves us and wased us in His own Blood, to him be all glory forever and ever because while we were yet sinners Christ died for us
LGW

Bob S and I were both SDA in the past, so we both have looked into the question of the Sabbath thoroughly. I, because I was raised SDA and was a firm believer in the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments. I could never understand why anyone who said they believed in the Ten Commandments could not see that the 7th day was the Sabbath, not the first. All you had to do was look at a calendar on the wall! And, for me, that hasn't changed. Saturday, starting Friday evening, IS the Sabbath. It is law.


So then we have to ask, are we under law or under grace, and what does that mean? Can we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Romans 6:15 Paul said, GOD FORBID! Of course we are not under ceremonial law as any SDA will tell you. But the Ten Commandments is the moral law. Right? And if we continue reading we find we are not under the moral law either, as that is what Paul was clearly referring to in Romans 7, not ceremonial rituals.

Romans 7:
6-7
"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (Clearly referring to the Ten Commandments)

10-11
And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

The Ten Commandments was being referred to here as the law of sin and death. And Exodus 34:28 shows us that is was the Ten Commandments that God referred to as THE COVENANT. Therefore, not only are we not under the Old Covenant, but the New, we are not under the Ten Commandments, the law of sin and death.

So what is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant if we are still not to sin, just because we are under grace? And what is grace, anyway? Let's start with grace, and the rest will be easy.

The unmerited favor side to grace is that we did not deserve that Christ should die for our sins. We didn't deserve that the Holy Spirit should draw us to Christ or convict us of our sin that we could not overcome. All we had to do was to cry out to God to forgive us our past sins, and believe on His Son, Jesus Christ. Now comes the other side to God's grace, the supernatural part.

First we repented. Acts 2:38-39 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

And now for the supernatural part:
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”


In Acts 4 and 2 Peter 1, we find a couple examples of Semitic parallelisms on grace that shows the supernatural meaning it becomes after receiving the Holy Spirit. This is one of the styles of Hebrew writing. This one shows the same thing in parallel, said differently, but clarify the meaning.

Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


In the New Covenant, it is important to emphasize that the role of the Holy Spirit has been given to us for supernatural power to not sin. Many false doctrines emphasize not being under the law but under unmerited favor as you keep sinning. They fail to see that grace has now turned into the power of God to no longer be a slave to sin as emphasized in Romans 6.

Acts 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you.”

Romans 15:13 “Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.”

1 Corinthians 2:4 “And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,”

1 Corinthians 5:4 “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,”

2 Thessalonians 1:11 “Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

John 1:12 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

12 But how many ever received him, he gave to them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name;



The power of grace has killed sin in us. We are dead to sin, making the law unnecessary. (You don't need laws your new nature cannot break). Now we have the Spirit of Christ living in us. However, we do have free will and are capable of sinning, but we now have power to resist. Paul said, I die daily. We now are to walk in the Spirit.

James 1:12-15 12 "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."


Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

So we see that law vs. grace is being alive to sin vs. dead to sin.


New Covenant Commandments
1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Whenever you see "commandments" in a writings of John the above is what he means, not the Ten Commandments. Here is another:

John 15:10 (Jesus vs. The Ten Commandments.) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

And another:
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And another:
Revelation 12:17 "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Ten Commandments and the commandments of Jesus are both based on the eternal laws of God. To love God with all your strength, mind and body, and to love your neighbor as yourself. However the commandments of Jesus are deeper going to the core of iniquity, makes us dead to sin and makes us righteous; which supersedes the Ten Commandments as they could not make anyone righteous.

These are two covenants. The Old Covenant, the Ten Commandments, the law of sin and death; and the New Covenant of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which has freed me from the law of sin and death Romans 8:2. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:5-7 "
"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory."

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another (with God), and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Because of the gift of the Holy Spirit making us dead to sin, empowering us to no longer be a slave to sin, but enabling us to walk in the Spirit we can understand how John can say:

1 John 3:6-9 "6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Where you have covenants, you have signs of covenants. And where you have two covenants, one superseding the other, so it is with the signs of those respective covenants. The Sabbath, a foreshadow of Jesus, was the sign of the superseded Old Covenant Exodus 31:13 and is itself now superseded by the new sign. The blood of Jesus, represented by the Cup of the New Covenant is the sign of the New Covenant 1 Corinthians 11:25.

Two covenants:

Old Covenant: The Ten Commandments represented by Ishmael, son of Hagar, the bondwoman.

New Covenant: The law of the Spirit of life in Christ by faith represented by Isaac, the son of promise.


Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all...28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

22:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob,

Hope you are well. Thanks again for your post. Here are some more comments for your consideration. Although from your last post it does seem to me that you have made up your mind already on what you believe.

Hi LGW, It "seems" to you that I have made up my mind? Yes I have. For nearly 40 years I accepted the SDA church's belief system. I was so busy trying to make a living for my family I really didn't have time to study the Word. Finally, when the family was raised I delved into some of the cracks I thought I saw in the foundation of the church. Sure enough I really did see many cracks, most of them were concerning the so called prophet. One of the cracks I wondered about was the tithing system, so I started studying to find out God had wanted me to spend so much time working just to make ends meet. Your being SDA you know all the many programs the church has its hand out for money to fund. Of course our congregation had plans to build a new church and church school, 12 grades. Tithing, building fund, church expenses, Liberty Mag, tuition for four children grade one through college. What a discouraging time of my life and the church was asking for more. I found out that the tithing system as presented by Ellen White was a farce. There is no new covenant tithing system. The only pattern was God's plan for Israel. The only ones who paid tithe were the farmers and Levites, merchants, laborers, tradesmen, and all others did not pay tithe. Tithe was never paid in shekels. Animals on hoof were given to the priesthood. All fresh produce was hauled to the storehouse of the Levites. As I said the new covenant does not demand tithe paying. Ellen and company deceived the church and the church is deceiving the laity today. No wonder the last time I checked only about 30% of church goers are paying their tithing obligation and Ellen's words to the church are still standing:

"We should regularly reserve something for God's cause, that He may not be robbed of the portion which He claims. When we rob God we rob ourselves also. We give up the heavenly treasure for the sake of having more of this earth. This is a loss that we cannot afford to sustain." (5T 271.3) What a farce she was and if she lied about this I wondered if she bore false witness other places. Yep, she surely did and here I was supporting a church that was just as guilty as was its prophet. I had been brainwashed into believing all the teachings of Adventism, but thank the Lord the Holy Spirit was showing me all the cracks in the foundation. I am now free in Christ, free to take scripture at its true meaning and not make long theories as to why it isn't what it is. I don't have to twist scripture to fit the churches doctrines as you have so obviously did.

I have noticed that when you do respond to my posts that you only post part of what I say for each point and comment on that and not the full content which includes the context. Maybe this is accidental? I believe this can lead to confusion on the side of the reader and also in regards to your understanding and interpretation of what I am sharing with you. If you can quote my full point(s) instead of half of the point(s) in the future it would be greatly appreciated .

I quot enough to make my point. More is not needed, that is my opinion. I am sorry if I really missed a new point. reading all the scripture you quote should not fortify your point anymore than one scripture on the subject. I am wondering if you copied and pasted many of them from some other writer?

2 Cor 3:7-11 has been fully addressed in the proceeding posts (post 325 and post 339) to my mind.

Actually you have done nothing except gloss over the fact that the 10 commandments were temporary commands. Your mind has not let you examine those verses because it negates your previous theory on col2. In fact 2Cor 3:7-11 negates the SDA theory that we must observe the Israelite only Sabbath. The 10 commandments are no longer the guide of anyone. Israel lost the covenant relationship with God, so the covenant is history along with Israel. The covenant included the Sabbath command. No covenant, no Sabbath demand.

There is 9 scriptures in 335 and 21 scriptures in 339 including context verses describing how 2Cor 3:7-11 is referring to the New Covenant.

Actually, no there are not 9 scriptures telling us that verses 7-11 are referring to the new covenant. 7-11 are referring to the 10 commandments and the Holy Spirit and you know they are. Why is it you cannot admit to that fact?

Your question in post 337 was "I asked you to explain how you have come to the conclusion as to why you believe 2Cor 3:7-11 is referring to the new covenant. Please give me a straight forward answer that I can understand." I believe if you re-read what is being shared above you will see that your question has been fully answered through the Word of God. What is it that you feel has not been addressed or are you asking a new question in relation to 2 Cor 3:7-11?

I went through the paragraph and pointed out words like "was", "transient", and other words that mean that the 10 were past not present. In fact here is what I wrote to you:
In those verses we find words like "was", "will not", "ministry that brought death" and "transitory" all which were referring to "engraved in letters on stone". "Was" is past tense and should be taken as just that. "Will not" leads to something new "ministry of the Holy Spirit" and that is in comparison with "ministry that brought death". Then we see the word "transitory" used two times in reference to the ministry that brought death which was engraved in letters on stone.

The ministry that brought death, the 10 commandments have past as the guide for the now defunct nation of Israel. Jesus replaced the ten commandments with the Holy Spirit as the guide for all mankind. I am sure you are wondering why I am using these verses from the same author as Col2. Paul in verses 7-11 is telling us that the Ten Commandments are no longer our guide. The fourth commandment WAS part of the ten. Christians are not subject to the defunct Ten Commandments thus making your Bible study completely wrong in its conclusion.

Was I wasting my time?

Bob, maybe there is a misunderstanding between us on what is being said. Firstly, I am not telling you that we are under the laws of Israel and the old covenant.

You sure could have fooled me. Your theory concerning Col2 is all about being under the laws of Israel.

I am not sure if you have misread what I am sharing or not or if I have not written my posts clear enough for you. I am also in agreement that the new Covenant is superior to the Old and we are no longer under the Old Covenant as this all pointed to Jesus.

Then why did you post that we are under the old covenant weekly Sabbath law and that Col 2 really didn't mean the weekly Sabbath?

I see where the misunderstanding lies between us now. You believe God's Law (10 commandments) are part of the ceremonial laws of Moses.

At this point it doesn't make any difference what I think, you have admitted that we are no longer under the old covenant. Amen!

Actually they are not and I will share with you why I believe they are not through the Word of God. Lets get to it. God’s Law (10 commandments) had a similar (not the same) role is it did in the Old Covenant as it now does in the New Covenant and that is;

Hold on there, if you believe that you are not under the old covenant it does not need any other explaining. The 10 were the old covenant.

(1) God's Law (10 commandments) is the work of God alone. The purpose of God's Law; was to point out sin and the penalty of sin (death). It was never a cure for sin just like it is in the New Covenant. It is the foundation of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and the very foundation of the Judgement that each one of us will be judged by in the last days. God wrote it with his own finger on two tables of stone. God spoke it himself personally to His people for all to hear. God separated His Law from all the laws written in the book of Moses and placed it in the Ark of the Covenant. God's Law is forever.

Oh! I spoke to soon. I should have seen it coming. You really do not believe we are not under the old covenant. You are trying to make me believe that the laws dictated to Moses by God are not just as important as the ones God wrote with His finger? The greatest of all commands ever given to Israel are found in the book of the law. All of the penalties for breaking the 10 are in the book of the law. All of the rules on how the Israelites were to live in the land of Canaan were in the book. It was the book that was open to all of the Israelites to learn from. The 10 were in the most Holy place where no one could see them except the priest. You have the audacity to try to tell me that God's law is forever and back in another post you tell me that some of the law was nailed to the Cross. God's law was book of the law and it contained the 10 commandments along with the other 603 laws.

Scripture proof:
Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 31:18; Ex 20:1-22; Deut 10:5; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Heb 7:19; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1John 3:5-8; 1John 2:3-4; Ecc 3:14

Please show me where any of the verses you presented prove that God's law is the 10 commandments. For instance do you see a 10 in front of commandments in Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14? If you would take the time to read 1Jn 3: 19-24 you would find out what law Christians transgress and it is not the 10 commandments that you think is immortal.

(2) On the other hand we have the laws of Moses (civil, Levitical and ceremonial and health laws). The purpose of the laws of Moses; was to describe God's plan of salvation from sin. The purpose of the laws of Moses was to provide a cure for sin through animal sacrifices, food and drink offerings, annual feast days connected to New Moons etc. The laws of Moses where a shadow of things to come that finished at the cross. These laws were the work of Moses. They were written by Moses as he was inspired by God for God's people under the Old Covenant. Moses wrote all these laws in a book. the laws of Moses were spoken by Moses. The book of Moses was placed in the side of the Ark of the Covenant and separated from God's Law.

I pray that you read the above from my Bible beliefs. What Moses wrote were God's words to Israel, stone or parchment it all came from God. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law..... law meaning 613 laws which included the 10 commandments that faded away according to 2Cor3:7-11. The whole law 613 of them concluded at Calvary. Jesus fulfilled the law, it is finished. Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood at Calvary. No more laws concerning what we eat, new moons, feasts (special Sabbaths) and no more weekly Sabbaths. All that was merely a shadow of Jesus. Amen my brother. You are correct, I do know what I believe, my mind has been changed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I no longer depend on a false prophet and the defunct 10 commandments as my guide. Jesus promised to give each of us the Holy Spirit to guide us. I chose for nearly 40 years to allow Ellen White to do what I should have allowed the Holy Spirit to do.
the Holly Spirit lead me to the following: 1Jn3:

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

The Law of God (10 commandments) are the work of God himself (Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 32:16; Ex 20:1-22; Ex 31:18; Deut 4:13) God Law was to be separate from everything else (including the laws of Moses). God’s Law was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant the laws of Moses were written in a book and placed at the side of the Ark of the Covenant (Deut 10:5; Deut 31:24; 25). Whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). It is the foundation of the Judgement were all of us will be Judged in the last days (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31) God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12; ) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). Still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc, etc.) God’s people obey it through faith (Rev 14:12).

The foundation of the new covenant is Jesus Christ not the 10 commandments. So you started the quote above with a falsehood. You are using SDA cliches. The old covenant was not about the plan of salvation, it was about how the Israelites were to live in the desert and in the land of Canaan. Ex 19:5-6. The new covenant in Jesus is all about the plan of salvation. Salvation has always been a personal thing. The old covenant was about a whole nation getting ready to gain the earthly promised land.

Bob what you say here is a little confusing to me. It is like saying only some of God's Word is for us and other parts of God's Word is not.

The old covenant, God's word, was for only one nation, Israel. I am not an Israelite, I have no reason to celebrate how Israel was freed from slavery. I have no reason to live like Israel did. God has not put all that on any other human being. What makes you believe God is making you live by the laws he gave only to Israel? I really do not understand why you cannot see the fact that Christians are not under any part of the old covenant ritual system. Sabbaths, all of them, were ritual laws dealing with events for Israel only. Morality is forever. Morality deals with how we treat God, ourselves and our fellow man. Morality is summed up as love. Love is God's, Jesus is God, command.

God's Word tells as that all scripture is for the "believer"

How could it be when it is directed only to an individual, or to one specific nation?

You only quoted a few of the verses I shared with you but left out the ones stating that the New Covenant is for "Israel"

Sure it was for Israel and for the most part they rejected it. The good new is that the new and better covenant does include gentiles.

and also the origin of where the Word Israel comes from in Gen 32:28. I will not go through all the scriptures again as I have done this already in post 339. It is very clear from God's Word that the "Believer" is spiritual "Israel" God's people today. I will just leave all the scriptures here for you to re-consider or for others to view including the ones that were left out (Heb 8:10-12; 10:14-17; Jer 31:31-34; Gal 3:28-29; Col 3:11; Rom 10:11-13; Rom 2:28-29)

Israel is defunct. There is no such ting as spiritual Israel. Christians are grafted into Jesus. Jesus came to save Israelites. They rejected Him and Israel was destroyed. Jews come to Jesus the same way gentiles do, one at a time and that is the way it has always been and will be until He comes to take us home.

This is what I agree with and not saying any different The annual ritual Sabbaths in the laws of Moses however are different to the 7th Day Sabbath of God's commandments.

They were all Holy days and all were ritual. They all ended when the covenant ended. The covenant ended at Calvary

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hi LGW, It "seems" to you that I have made up my mind? Yes I have. For nearly 40 years I accepted the SDA church's belief system. I was so busy trying to make a living for my family I really didn't have time to study the Word. Finally, when the family was raised I delved into some of the cracks I thought I saw in the foundation of the church. Sure enough I really did see many cracks, most of them were concerning the so called prophet. One of the cracks I wondered about was the tithing system, so I started studying to find out God had wanted me to spend so much time working just to make ends meet. Your being SDA you know all the many programs the church has its hand out for money to fund. Of course our congregation had plans to build a new church and church school, 12 grades. Tithing, building fund, church expenses, Liberty Mag, tuition for four children grade one through college. What a discouraging time of my life and the church was asking for more. I found out that the tithing system as presented by Ellen White was a farce. There is no new covenant tithing system. The only pattern was God's plan for Israel. The only ones who paid tithe were the farmers and Levites, merchants, laborers, tradesmen, and all others did not pay tithe. Tithe was never paid in shekels. Animals on hoof were given to the priesthood. All fresh produce was hauled to the storehouse of the Levites. As I said the new covenant does not demand tithe paying. Ellen and company deceived the church and the church is deceiving the laity today. No wonder the last time I checked only about 30% of church goers are paying their tithing obligation and Ellen's words to the church are still standing:

"We should regularly reserve something for God's cause, that He may not be robbed of the portion which He claims. When we rob God we rob ourselves also. We give up the heavenly treasure for the sake of having more of this earth. This is a loss that we cannot afford to sustain." (5T 271.3) What a farce she was and if she lied about this I wondered if she bore false witness other places. Yep, she surely did and here I was supporting a church that was just as guilty as was its prophet. I had been brainwashed into believing all the teachings of Adventism, but thank the Lord the Holy Spirit was showing me all the cracks in the foundation. I am now free in Christ, free to take scripture at its true meaning and not make long theories as to why it isn't what it is. I don't have to twist scripture to fit the churches doctrines as you have so obviously did.


I quot enough to make my point. More is not needed, that is my opinion. I am sorry if I really missed a new point. reading all the scripture you quote should not fortify your point anymore than one scripture on the subject. I am wondering if you copied and pasted many of them from some other writer?


Actually you have done nothing except gloss over the fact that the 10 commandments were temporary commands. Your mind has not let you examine those verses because it negates your previous theory on col2.


Actually, no there are not 9 scriptures telling us that verses 7-11 are referring to the new covenant. 7-11 are referring to the 10 commandments and the Holy Spirit and you know they are. Why is it you cannot admit to that fact?


I went through the paragraph and pointed out words like "was", "transient", and other words that mean that the 10 were past not present. In fact here is what I wrote to you:
In those verses we find words like "was", "will not", "ministry that brought death" and "transitory" all which were referring to "engraved in letters on stone". "Was" is past tense and should be taken as just that. "Will not" leads to something new "ministry of the Holy Spirit" and that is in comparison with "ministry that brought death". Then we see the word "transitory" used two times in reference to the ministry that brought death which was engraved in letters on stone.

The ministry that brought death, the 10 commandments have past as the guide for the now defunct nation of Israel. Jesus replaced the ten commandments with the Holy Spirit as the guide for all mankind. I am sure you are wondering why I am using these verses from the same author as Col2. Paul in verses 7-11 is telling us that the Ten Commandments are no longer our guide. The fourth commandment WAS part of the ten. Christians are not subject to the defunct Ten Commandments thus making your Bible study completely wrong in its conclusion.

Was I wasting my time?


You sure could have fooled me. Your theory concerning Col2 is all about being under the laws of Israel.



Then why did you post that we are under the old covenant weekly Sabbath law and that Col 2 really didn't mean the weekly Sabbath?


At this point it doesn't make any difference what I think, you have admitted that we are no longer under the old covenant. Amen!


Hold on there, if you believe that you are not under the old covenant it does not need any other explaining. The 10 were the old covenant.


Oh! I spoke to soon. I should have seen it coming. You really do not believe we are not under the old covenant. You are trying to make me believe that the laws dictated to Moses by God are not just as important as the ones God wrote with His finger? The greatest of all commands ever given to Israel are found in the book of the law. All of the penalties for breaking the 10 are in the book of the law. All of the rules on how the Israelites were to live in the land of Canaan were in the book. It was the book that was open to all of the Israelites to learn from. The 10 were in the most Holy place where no one could see them except the priest. You have the audacity to try to tell me that God's law is forever and back in another post you tell me that some of the law was nailed to the Cross. God's law was book of the law and it contained the 10 commandments along with the other 603 laws.


Please show me where any of the verses you presented prove that God's law is the 10 commandments. For instance do you see a 10 in front of commandments in Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14? If you would take the time to read 1Jn 3: 19-24 you would find out what law Christians transgress and it is not the 10 commandments that you think is immortal.


I pray that you read the above from my Bible beliefs. What Moses wrote were God's words to Israel, stone or parchment it all came from God. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law..... law meaning 613 laws which included the 10 commandments that faded away according to 2Cor3:7-11. The whole law 613 of them concluded at Calvary. Jesus fulfilled the law, it is finished. Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood at Calvary. No more laws concerning what we eat, new moons, feasts (special Sabbaths) and no more weekly Sabbaths. All that was merely a shadow of Jesus. Amen my brother. You are correct, I do know what I believe, my mind has been changed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I no longer depend on a false prophet and the defunct 10 commandments as my guide. Jesus promised to give each of us the Holy Spirit to guide us. I chose for nearly 40 years to allow Ellen White to do what I should have allowed the Holy Spirit to do.
the Holly Spirit lead me to the following: 1Jn3:

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


The foundation of the new covenant is Jesus Christ not the 10 commandments. So you started the quote above with a falsehood. You are using SDA cliches. The old covenant was not about the plan of salvation, it was about how the Israelites were to live in the desert and in the land of Canaan. Ex 19:5-6. The new covenant in Jesus is all about the plan of salvation. Salvation has always been a personal thing. The old covenant was about a whole nation getting ready to gain the earthly promised land.


The old covenant, God's word, was for only one nation, Israel. I am not an Israelite, I have no reason to celebrate how Israel was freed from slavery. I have no reason to live like Israel did. God has not put all that on any other human being. What makes you believe God is making you live by the laws he gave only to Israel? I really do not understand why you cannot see the fact that Christians are not under any part of the old covenant ritual system. Sabbaths, all of them, were ritual laws dealing with events for Israel only. Morality is forever. Morality deals with how we treat God, ourselves and our fellow man. Morality is summed up as love. Love is God's, Jesus is God, command.



How could it be when it is directed only to an individual, or to one specific nation?


Sure it was for Israel and for the most part they rejected it. The good new is that the new and better covenant does include gentiles.


Israel is defunct. There is no such ting as spiritual Israel. Christians are grafted into Jesus. Jesus came to save Israelites. They rejected Him and Israel was destroyed. Jews come to Jesus the same way gentiles do, one at a time and that is the way it has always been and will be until He comes to take us home.



They were all Holy days and all were ritual. They all ended when the covenant ended. The covenant ended at Calvary

Your post is long so I'll just comment on the first part on tithing tonight. EGW wasn't the first to bring back tithing, nor the only Protestant denomination that teaches it as law. The Roman Catholic Church brought it back at the same time it invented indulgences trying to bring as much money into the coffers as they could. It's one of those false doctrines that was never in the New Covenant, but stuck for obvious reasons, greed that has turned into extortion and manipulation. And I'm sorry to say that "seed faith" under the umbrella of Pentecostalism is another such doctrine, that sounds scriptural if the motives weren't so WRONG.

 

[listed]

What about those who already have a Savior, do they still need a Law to lead them to that Savior?

Excellent question. The issue for at least part of the law contingency is a person isn't a Christian having a Savior without keeping the amended version of the law.

You argument is logical, but it's not biblical.
You are also making a very strange argument.

For sure they're (specifically him) making a strange unbiblical argument.

You begin with the claim that the letter of the law (10 commandments) is the foundation of the New Covenant, and then you make a very long argument using scriptures that contradict your argument.

I've always found this amazing.

 

[listed]

Hi Bob,

Hope you are well. Thanks again for your post. Here are some more comments for your consideration. Although from your last post it does seem to me that you have made up your mind already on what you believe.



I have noticed that when you do respond to my posts that you only post part of what I say for each point and comment on that and not the full content which includes the context. Maybe this is accidental? I believe this can lead to confusion on the side of the reader and also in regards to your understanding and interpretation of what I am sharing with you. If you can quote my full point(s) instead of half of the point(s) in the future it would be greatly appreciated .

Are you not reading his posts or are you ignoring parts of them?

Also why do you seem to demand taking your point-of-view as our own?

 

[Doveaman]

I am showing context for the discussion. If you were actually correct in your wild claim that this is not in fact exposing the key glaring flaw in your statement - then you would actually want your well stated case being shown - as often as possible.

We both know what is going on here. I cut out the winding rambling parts and just show where clear statement is made - and then that the bible refutes it

Great example of the above - where a suggestion is made - then I show that the Bible refutes that speculation.

=========================

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

Or was it your intent to say that the Law as known to Abraham in Genesis 26:5 - is in perfect agreement with the written Word of God??

There is no "Law of the LETTER" in that entire Gal 3 quote you pasted ... and we both know it. It is only in the suggestion you make about it.

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

I prefer the Word of God when it comes to doctrine.

Still repeating yourself, I see.

Not a very good strategy.

I am a little surprised by that statement given that I just should a perfect example of your statement in a post - and just where the Bible addresses the point - refuting it.

I'm not aware of anything being refuted by you.

The command "do not take God's name in vain" defines sin and condemns those who do BEFORE written on stone AND AFTER written on stone.

No change.

We both know it.

No, we don't.

Sin is the violation of God's eternal love: “God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

When we violate God's love we are violating God Himself. This is how we sin against God, it is by violating His love. And this is why love is the fulfillment of God's law: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

The righteous requirements of God's law is love, and those who obey the requirements of God's love will not take God's name in vain:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

We transgress God's law, not by violating its letter, but by violating its requirements to love.

 

[listed]

Regarding Matthew 19 and your idea that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews, I don't agree. Whenever Jesus taught on a subject He always gave the corrected, and more importantly the spiritual insight to the laws which the Jews never had. These then became the commandments of Jesus kept through love and the power of the Holy Spirit. It is interesting that He only taught on commandments relating to one another, like to the rich young ruler. James does the same, but they are encompassed in "love your neighbor as yourself." The first four commandments of the Father towards God are encompassed now in "believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ" - (who is God).

1 John 3:23.

This is why whenever He was questioned about breaking the Sabbath, He let them know the Sabbath had to do with Him - He is Lord of the Sabbath. This is the spiritual insight of the Sabbath.

If Jesus is teaching the law as a requirement, He violates the OT Scripture.

 

[Doveaman]

Nice thread on Galatians 3 --

Fine - the Galatians topic it is. Will give you a thread fully devoted to the chapter - you will have lots of room to make your case.

The case has already been made:

The entire chapter of Galatians 3 is about the Old Covenant law that was based on the 10 commandments, which Paul says is now an unemployed schoolmaster:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25).

Notice that in Gal 3 the role of the Law of God to the lost is to point them to the need of Christ - as we also see in Romans 3.

That's correct, the "schoolmaster" of the law pointed us to faith in Christ, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the "schoolmaster" of the law.

But nothing in Gal 3 says it is ok to "take God's name in vain" once we become a Christian" and we both know it.

Why would anyone following Christ/God take His name in vain?

The reason why we follow Christ/God is because we respect His name.

Rather as Paul says in Romans 3 - "we ESTABLISH the LAW" as Christians.

Love is the establishment of the law:

“Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

Love establishes the righteous requirements of God's eternal law.

Rom 3:31 because it is "written on the heart and mind"

The law written in our heart and mind is the righteous requirements of the law, not the letter. And the righteous requirements of the law is love:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles who do not have the letter of the law do obey the righteous requirements of the law from their hearts by loving each other:

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

We transgress God's law, not by violating its letter, but by violating its righteous requirements to love each other as ourselves, because love fulfills the righteous requirements of the law: “'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

Those who obey the righteous requirements of the law to love God will not take His name in vain.

Hebrews 8:6-10 under the NEW Covenant.

And we are told in Deuteronomy 4 what the Old Covenant was:

"He declared to you His covenant, the Ten Commandments, which He commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets" (Deuteronomy 4:13).

And we are told in 2 Corinthians 3 that the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

In Gal 3 - it is ABRAHAM that is demonstrating how this is lived out - who has the ONE Gospel preached to him Gal 3:8.

Abraham lived by the New Covenant of the Spirit, and not by the Old Covenant of the letter:

“The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham...So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse…Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith.' The law is not based on faith…Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law…He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit” (Galatians 3:8-17).

There is nothing righteous about observing the letter of the law, because the letter of the law is not based on faith, and the righteous live by faith. This is why Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law so we may obtain the righteousness of Abraham, a righteousness that is by faith.

In the NT SIN is STILL defined as "Transgression of the LAW" in 1 John 3:4 and in James 2... and Romans 7.

Sin is the transgression of the righteous requirements of the law. We transgress the law, not by violating its letter, but by violating its righteous requirements to love each other as ourselves.

 

[Doveaman]

in the actual Bible the term "letter of the LAW" is merely "the LAW in written form" and is the SAME as the LAW as we see in the ONE place where it actually IS in the Bible.

The letter of the law is not the Spirit of the law written on our hearts.

The Spirit of the law is God’s eternal law.
God’s eternal law is the one law eternally expressed by the Father and Son before time began.

The letter of the law was temporarily made for man.
The Spirit of the law is eternally expressed by God.
The letter of the law reveals sin to man.
The Spirit of the law reveals the righteousness of God.

The letter of the law is obedience to the 10 commandments.
The Spirit of the law is to love others as ourselves.
This is why love fulfills the spiritual requirements of the law:

“Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

The 10 commandments is not the fulfillment of God’s law.
The 10 commandments do not fulfill the requirements of God’s love.
The 10 commandments do restrain us in a limited way from harming our neighbor, but they do not enable us to completely lay down our lives for others as Christ did:

“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends” (John 15:12-13).

 

[1stcenturylady]

If Jesus is teaching the law as a requirement, He violates the OT Scripture.

OT Scripture on adultery was always regarding sexual immorality. That hasn't changed in the NT. The Jews and their rabbis were divorcing their wives for any reason, even getting too old. Jesus corrected that, but brought it further into even lusting after another woman other than your wife.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice Paul lead with the sins of a sexual nature.

 

[Doveaman]

You typically cut out the texts that you cannot refute.

Actually, I cut out the texts that I already refuted, and then I refute the remainder.

the actual Bible says.

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

“God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

"This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

I will be sticking with the Bible on this detail.

There is no ‘10’ in 1 John 5:2-3, so you are obviously sticking to your own added detail – "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

It is your inability to make the distinction between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law that is causing you to distort the Bible by adding to it.

The letter of the law is the literal interpretation of the words in the letter.
The Spirit of the law is the personal intent of the God who wrote the letter.

What was God's intent when He wrote the letter against murder?
It was because of His love for us and His desire for us not to harm each other.
This is why Romans 13 tells us: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

Love fulfills the spiritual intent of God’s law. God’s love for man is the reason why the letter was given in the first place. Man cannot naturally express God’s love, so God gave man a temporary letter to keep man in check: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:23-25).

We are no longer under the schoolmaster of the letter. The Jews relied on the interpretation of the letter, but the Christian rely on the love of the Spirit. All our actions are governed by the love of God’s Spirit, and no longer by the words of the letter.

Also notice the distinction: The Jews who relied on the letter had an indirect and impersonal relationship, but the Christian who rely of the Spirit has a direct and personal relationship with God. This is why Galatians 5 tells us: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Galatians 5:4).

Those who rely on the letter are alienating themselves from a personal relationship with God, because the letter is impersonal. This is why the Jews did not receive the letter directly from God. The letter was administered through angles by a human mediator, Moses:

"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator" (Galatians 3:19).

The letter of the law was not administered by God Himself, it was administered by inferior beings. This was because the letter was not God’s divine standard, it was an inferior standard. Jesus, through His divine Spirit, has now brought the superior standard of God’s law, the standard that is administered by God Himself:

“But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another” (Hebrews 8:6-7).

The first covenant was the 10 commandments, the inferior standard: "So He declared to you His covenant, the Ten Commandments, which He commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets" (Deuteronomy 4:13).

Christians are not called to live by the inferior standard of the Old Covenant, but by the superior standard of the New. We are called to live by the love of the Spirit. We are now inspired by the Holy Spirit with the same intent that God has, the same intent to love others as we love ourselves, the same intent to love others just as God loves us:

“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends” (John 15:12-13).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Doveaman and all,

Sorry I have been away for a while with work and family but I did want to come back and chat about the OP. I may have to pop in and out from time to time so please forgive me if I do not respond very quickly. Please find some comments below for your consideration.

You are correct in that Colossians 2 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses and the annual Feast days as a shadow. But the entire Old Covenant ministry with its Levitical priesthood serving in the earthly sanctuary was also a copy and shadow of the priesthood of Christ who now serves in the heavenly sanctuary: “They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven...But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one.” (Hebrews 8:4-6).
The earthly sanctuary of the Old Covenant was a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary in which Christ now serves. Hebrews 9 gives us further details of what was included in the copy and shadow of the earthly sanctuary: “Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary...which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered Ark of the Covenant...and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:1-5).

Excellent we well said we agree!

The stone tablets of the covenant, which was the Ten Commandments, was included in the copy and shadow of the earthly sanctuary. The Ten Commandments in the earthly sanctuary was only a shadow of God's truth in the heavenly sanctuary. Love is the fundamental truth of God's law in the heavenly sanctuary, and the Ten Commandments in the earthly sanctuary was only a shadow of that truth in the heavenly sanctuary. This is why love fulfils the fundamental truth of God's law.

Excellent The 10 commandments represents the character of God. It is only through love that we can obey God. This is the new covenant experience of God writing His Laws in our heart. God’s Law is the standard in the Judgement and it is the definition of righteousness which is forever (Ps 119:172; Matt 6:33; Ps 98:9; Ecc 3:14)

As I showed in Hebrews 9, the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments were included in the copy and shadow of the earthly sanctuary. God rested on the seventh day of creation week because it was on that day that He ceased from His finished work. The seventh-day rest was later given to the Jews as a memorial to God's finished work. The seventh-day rest, therefore, is only a memorial.

Also good The 7th Day Sabbath is indeed a memorial of creation. It was given with the other 9 commandments to God’s people and make up the Law of God which is also known as the 10 commandments (Gen 2:1-3; Ex 20:8:11; 1-22).

It is not the reality. God's finished work is the reality. The seventh-day rest is only a memorial/shadow of God's finished work, and God's finished work with its memorial/shadow pointed forward to the finished work of Christ on the cross. This is why we now find true rest in Christ: “Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.” (Matthew 11:28-29). Genesis 1 begins with an earth that was dead (formless and void), an earth that was buried (in darkness and deep waters), and an earth that was resurrected (let there be light). This creation event pointed forward to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, His finished work on the cross. And the memorial seventh-day rest pointed forward to the true Sabbath-rest we now have in Christ.

This is where I feel you maybe diverting from scripture and where post 325 goes into more detail that you have not addressed at all. You contradict yourself in this section of your post as you say in one breath quoting the scriptures of Gen 2:1-3 that “God rested on the seventh day of creation week because it was on that day that He ceased from His finished work.” Then in the next breath you are in your own words (not scripture) “The seventh-day rest is only a memorial/shadow of God's finished work, and God's finished work with its memorial/shadow pointed forward to the finished work of Christ on the cross.” This is against the scriptures pointed out in post 325. How can the 7th Day Sabbath by a Shadow if it is part of the FINISHED WORK of creation? The other important point you have not addressed from post 325 is when the Sabbath was given. It was given BEFORE the fall of mankind as part of a FINISHED work so it cannot be part of the shadows of ceremonial Laws because mankind had not fallen. You contradict yourself in what you are saying and haven’t addressed post 325 at all. Why? Because you say you agree that the ceremonial laws of Moses are done away at the cross.

“You are correct in that Colossians 2 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses and the annual Feast days as a shadow.”

Then you agree that the 7th Day Sabbath is part of the finished Word of Creation.

“God rested on the seventh day of creation week because it was on that day that He ceased from His finished work.”

Then in the next breath you say the opposite and contradict yourself making statements that are unbiblical

“The seventh-day rest is only a memorial/shadow of God's finished work, and God's finished work with its memorial/shadow pointed forward to the finished work of Christ on the cross.”

So once again if God’s says that the 7th Day Sabbath is a FINISHED work of creation and it was given BEFORE the fall of mankind, how can it be a shadow of anything? If the Sabbath is part of the FINISHED work of Creation and was given BEFORE the fall of mankind then it cannot be part of any shadows that are a part of something that is not FINISHED. If it was given BEFORE the FALL of mankind it also cannot be part of any Shadow of the plan of salvation because mankind had not fallen yet. If the 7th Day Sabbath is part of God's 10 commandments then if we knowingly and willfully break it, then we are sinning against God because SIN is the transgression of God's Law and if we through love keep 9 commandments and break one we are guilty before God as if we broke all of them (1 John 3:4; James 2:8-12). If we are knowingly sinning against God. His Word says we have neither seen him of know him (1 John 2:2-4) Please go back and re-read post 325

The 7th Day Sabbath is indeed the rest of the creator which was made a Holy day by God himself for His people. Jesus is the one that commands us to keep it and your OP comes crumbling down in Gen 2:1-3; Mark 2:27-28 because it is a finished work given before sin had entered the world.

Hope this helps.

In Christ always.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Doverman,
Here are a few comments for consideration

LoveGodsWord said: ↑

Without God's Law we have no knowledge of SIN. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a Savior. If we have no need of a Savior then we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost.
What about those who already have a Savior, do they still need a Law to lead them to that Savior? You argument is logical, but it's not biblical.

The role of God’s Law is to give a knowledge of SIN and the punishment for sin which is death (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23) It is our schoolmaster to show us that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). It brings us to the Cross so we can find Jesus so that by believing His Word we have forgiveness of sin and salvation (Gal 3:24). We walk with Jesus the very same way that we receive him (2 Cor 5:7). If we sin again (break God’s Law) we are back under the schoolmaster until we come back to Jesus and walk by faith. If you are professing to know God while wilfully sinning against him God’s Word says you have neither seen him no known Him (1John 2:2-5). It is not God’s purpose that we sin but if we do we can always come back to Him (1John 2:1). So are you can see what I am sharing with you is indeed very biblical (scriptures inserted).

LoveGodsWord said: The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12).You are also making a very strange argument. You begin with the claim that the letter of the law (10 commandments) is the foundation of the New Covenant, and then you make a very long argument using scriptures that contradict your argument. You say this: The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God...It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). and then you quote this: 2Co 3:6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament <COVENANT>; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. You say the letter of 10 commandments is the foundation of the New Covenant and then you quote that the New Covenant is not based on the letter of 10 commandments. Your argument is contradicting your argument. You then say this: Absolutely they do according to Gal 3:19-25. This is talking about the role of God's Law as our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith v24. and then you ignored this: "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25). You quoted the earlier part of the verses which says "the law was our schoolmaster", but then you ignored the latter part of the verses which says "we are no longer under a schoolmaster". Your arguments are long but they are not consistent. You keep contradicting yourself.

Friend what I have shared with you does not contradict itself. I think it is your interpretation of what you believe the scriptures mean that is the problem. So let’s talk scripture and clear any misunderstandings up. God’s 10 commandments are indeed the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants and also the Judgement to come. It represents God’s character of love which is forever (Matt 22:37-40). It gives us the knowledge of good and evil (SIN) and tells us the punishment (death) (1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; 2Cor 3:6-7) Now you think that me quoting 2Cor 3:6 is a contradiction of what I am saying because in your mind this verse is saying God’s 10 commandments is no more but the scripture is saying to me that the 10 commandments has the same role that it always had. It points out what sin is and the wages of sin is death. God’s Law is the ministration of death to those that Sin and this is consistent with all the New Testament scriptures. From the books of Genesis to Revelations God’s Judgements have only ever come to people because of SIN. God’s Words tells us that SIN is the transgression or breaking of God’s Law (1John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23).

Now that that is cleared up this brings us back to the 7th Day Sabbath. This is also one of the 10 commandments (4th Ex 20:8-11). It is part of the Finished Work of creation given Before the fall of mankind. Therefore cannot be a shadow of things to come. James tells us if we break one of God’s Commandments we are guilty of breaking all of God’s Law. (James 2:8-12). Just as the 7th Day Sabbath is one of God’s commandments just like all the other 9 (Ex 20:1-17) if we knowingly (in times of ignorance God winks at) break God’s 7th Day Sabbath which is a Holy day given to us by God by Jesus. (Gen 2:1-3; Mark 2:27-28) then we commit sin and unless we repent are in danger of the Judgement (Heb 10:26-27).

Here is a very relevant warning given to us all by Jesus in these scriptures.

“Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, this people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honours me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt 15:3;7-9).

If we break God’s commandments by following man-made teachings and traditions over the Word of God. This is “Unbelief” in God’s Word and “Unbelievers” have no place in the kingdom of God. Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man and has no basis in the Word of God whatsoever and if we keep it over God’s commandment given to us be Jesus then we are not following Him.

Please show me the scripture that says God’s 7th Day Sabbath commandment is abolished and not a commandment of God’s Law anymore and the Scripture that says that God commands us to keep Sunday as a Holy day of Worship? You also have not addressed post 325 in regards to the Sabbath in creation that was part of a FINISHED work given BEFORE the fall of mankind. If we knowingly and willfully break God's 7th Day Sabbath we are sinning against God and do not know him (1 John 2:2-4). Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man breaking the Laws of God and has no basis in the Word of God. If we knowingly and willfully follow man made traditions over the Word of God we are not following God. So the question we need to ask ourselves is who do we follow God or man? If we are following man we are ""Unbelievers" and have no part in God's Kingdom.

Hope this is helpful

In Christ always

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Doverman,

Here are a few comments for consideration

The case has already been made: The entire chapter of Galatians 3 is about the Old Covenant law that was based on the 10 commandments, which Paul says is now an unemployed schoolmaster: "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25). That's correct, the "schoolmaster" of the law pointed us to faith in Christ, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the "schoolmaster" of the law. Why would anyone following Christ/God take His name in vain? The reason why we follow Christ/God is because we respect His name.

Much of what you have said in this post and your other posts on love in the new Covenant is great stuff and I agree with as well so thanks for sharing. For those that walk by faith in the Spirit will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh (SIN) (Rom 8:1-14). On the same token you should be careful in what you are saying as well. God’s Law brings sinners (us) to the cross so we might find Jesus (Gal 3:23-25). It gives us the knowledge of what sin is (Rom 3:20; 1 John 3:4) nothing more and nothing less. We are not saved by keeping the works of the Law because all it does is show us who we really are and that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). Our righteousness does not come by God’s Law it does indeed only come by faith in Christ and His Words. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9) The purpose of God’s Law is to point out sin and the wages of someone who is continuing in known sin (death); (Rom 6:23; 1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20). God’s Law is the mirror that shows us if we are truly following Jesus (James 1:23) The Word of God clearly tells us that those who are sinning or breaking God’s Law while professing to know and follow Jesus (1) do not know God; (2) have not seen him nor known him; (3) are liars and not telling the truth; (4) are not the children of God and are in fact the children of the devil (1 John 2:1; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:1-4; 2 John 1:6; James 2:8-12; John 15:10; John 14:15; Rev 14:12)

Love is indeed the fulfilling of God’s Law and is the New Covenant (Rom 13:10; Heb 8:10-12). God wants to write His Law of Love in our hearts so that we can follow him. He is a God of salvation who wants to save us from our sin but if we continue in known sin against God as has been shown above we have not seen God or know him. So God’s Law still has a purpose and that is to point out sin.

We know that SIN is the transgression of God’s Law (1 John 3:4). If we break any of God’s Laws we are sinning against God (James 2:8-12). The 7th Day Sabbath is still very much a part of the 10 Commandments (Ex 20:8-11). If we knowingly and wilfully break it we commit sin and are not following God. If we choose to follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God then we are unbelievers in God’s Word. Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man breaking God’s Law which has no basis in God’s Word. Then the question remains who do we really follow God or Man? This is the great test that will come to each of us. God’s sheep hear his voice… He that has ears to hear let him hear (Matt 11:15)

Please show me the scripture that says God’s 7th Day Sabbath commandment is abolished and not a commandment of God’s Law anymore and the Scripture that says that God commands us to keep Sunday as a Holy day of Worship? You also have not addressed post 325 in regards to the Sabbath in creation that was part of a FINISHED work given BEFORE the fall of mankind and if you cannot why do you not believe God’s Word?

Hope this is helpful

In Christ always

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Doverman,

Hope you are well today. Some comments below for your consideration.

The first covenant was the 10 commandments, the inferior standard: "So He declared to you His covenant, the Ten Commandments, which He commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets" (Deuteronomy 4:13). Christians are not called to live by the inferior standard of the Old Covenant, but by the superior standard of the New. We are called to live by the love of the Spirit. We are now inspired by the Holy Spirit with the same intent that God has, the same intent to love others as we love ourselves, the same intent to love others just as God loves us: “This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends” (John 15:12-13).

The first Covenant included the 10 Commandments written by God on two tables of stone is correct. I think where you make your mistake is that you do not see that the New Covenant God writes His Law of love in us by writing His Law in our heart and puts His Spirit in us as we have faith in God’s Word so that we can love and follow Jesus. (Eze 36:26-27; Jer 31:33-34; Heb 8:10-12) Salvation is about being saved from sin. If the son shall make you free you shall be free indeed (John 8:31; 34; 36)

If you have known wilful sin in your life you do not know God and God’s Word says you are lying (1 John 2:2-4) If you have known sin in your life you do not love Jesus because Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15) Sin is the transgression or breaking any of God’s 10 commandments. The 7th Day Sabbath is one of those commandments (Ex 20:8-11). If you follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God. You are not following God or believing God. This makes a person an “Unbeliever” and unbelievers have no part in the Kingdom of God. In times of ignorance God winks at but when a knowledge of the truth is come calls all man everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)

Isa 55:6-7,
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Hope this is helpful

In Christ Always