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Gods Sabbath Day (2)
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deu58 said:
I never even said that at all.
What I did say was that if there were to be a change it would be announced.
If there were no change then the law continued.
Do not try and twist my words.
Then if there were to be a change it would be done before the year in question.
If Christ was going to change the Sabbath then it would had to be done before His death, not after.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hi Cliff
There is no need for me to twist your words, In fact it helps my own position to leave your words just the way they are, I simply make you attempt to clarify your words,
I have proved that the change has been announced, The change was not to make another day the New Sabbath, There is no day binding on the believer in the new testament, That is made perfectly clear by the Apostles in more than a few places,Why create a new shadow when the substance has now been revealed? We are told that we must not forsake gathering together,
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
This shows us that there were problems with people worshiping correctly. They had no regard for the Sabbath or any other day, And yet you say that it was not necessary to teach proper Sabbath keeping because everybody knew? Apparently they did not know, But the writer does not rebuke them for disregarding or violating the Sabbath, He simply rebukes them for not gathering together for worship,
You can not prove that any day is binding from the New Testament, There is no scriptural support for that it, You admit this in the sense that you agree there are no verses in the NT dealing with proper Sabbth keeping or officially claiming that it is still binding on the believer,
To circumvent this dilemma you are forced into the unscriptural position of claiming that the reason we see no verses dealing with proper Sabbath keeping in the New Testament is because everybody all ready knew.
You take this position which is actually against what we are taught in the New Testament and expect us to accept it on your word alone,
What would you think if I was trying to prove all the lesser Sabbaths and feasts were still binding? You would be using all the verses we use to show that these days were no longer binding on the believer today,
So I counter that all those days spoken of are Pagan days only and not the days proscribed by the Law of Moses
Jesus kept all these days and he is our example because we see in several places where he went to Jeruasalem for the Feasts days and we know he kept the pass over, He showed us the proper way to observe these days by his example, The reason you do not see the Apostles teaching those things is because it was not necessary because everybody all ready knew about them,
Would you accept that argument as valid?
yours in Christ
deu 58
Cliff2 said:
There is no need for me to twist your words, In fact it helps my own position to leave your words just the way they are, I simply make you attempt to clarify your words,
I have proved that the change has been announced, The change was not to make another day the New Sabbath, There is no day binding on the believer in the new testament, That is made perfectly clear by the Apostles in more than a few places,Why create a new shadow when the substance has now been revealed? We are told that we must not forsake gathering together,
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
This shows us that there were problems with people worshiping correctly. They had no regard for the Sabbath or any other day, And yet you say that it was not necessary to teach proper Sabbath keeping because everybody knew? Apparently they did not know, But the writer does not rebuke them for disregarding or violating the Sabbath, He simply rebukes them for not gathering together for worship,
You can not prove that any day is binding from the New Testament, There is no scriptural support for that it, You admit this in the sense that you agree there are no verses in the NT dealing with proper Sabbth keeping or officially claiming that it is still binding on the believer,
To circumvent this dilemma you are forced into the unscriptural position of claiming that the reason we see no verses dealing with proper Sabbath keeping in the New Testament is because everybody all ready knew.
You take this position which is actually against what we are taught in the New Testament and expect us to accept it on your word alone,
What would you think if I was trying to prove all the lesser Sabbaths and feasts were still binding? You would be using all the verses we use to show that these days were no longer binding on the believer today,
So I counter that all those days spoken of are Pagan days only and not the days proscribed by the Law of Moses
Jesus kept all these days and he is our example because we see in several places where he went to Jeruasalem for the Feasts days and we know he kept the pass over, He showed us the proper way to observe these days by his example, The reason you do not see the Apostles teaching those things is because it was not necessary because everybody all ready knew about them,
Would you accept that argument as valid?
yours in Christ
deu 58
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deu58 said:
You have not shown a thing, there has never been a change. If what you claim is right then submit that and get your $25,000. When you have that in the bank you can say that you have shown me and everyone else that there has been a change.
Until then I would not be making any claims here that you have shown that there is a change.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hi Cliff
What would you think if I was trying to prove all the lesser Sabbaths and feasts were still binding? You would be using all the verses we use to show that these days were no longer binding on the believer today,
So I counter that all those days spoken of are Pagan days only and not the days proscribed by the Law of Moses
Jesus kept all these days and he is our example because we see in several places where he went to Jeruasalem for the Feasts days and we know he kept the pass over, He showed us the proper way to observe these days by his example, The reason you do not see the Apostles teaching those things is because it was not necessary because everybody all ready knew about them,
Would you accept that argument as valid?
Please answer the question.
yours in Christ
deu 58
What would you think if I was trying to prove all the lesser Sabbaths and feasts were still binding? You would be using all the verses we use to show that these days were no longer binding on the believer today,
So I counter that all those days spoken of are Pagan days only and not the days proscribed by the Law of Moses
Jesus kept all these days and he is our example because we see in several places where he went to Jeruasalem for the Feasts days and we know he kept the pass over, He showed us the proper way to observe these days by his example, The reason you do not see the Apostles teaching those things is because it was not necessary because everybody all ready knew about them,
Would you accept that argument as valid?
Please answer the question.
yours in Christ
deu 58
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When one want to go back and keep the feast days it only show that they think the sacrifice that Jesus made was not good enough. It would end up salvation by works.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hi Cliff
Ac 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Ac 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Why would Paul even agree to these things if he did not believe Temple worship and ceremonial rites to be important? Would he not then be seeking to please man rather than God?
Ac 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Here we see Paul in a hurry to be in a Jerusalem to honor a feast day, Again all after the cross, So to follow your Logic we see that Jesus before the cross kept all the religious days and we see Paul going to the temple to perform temple rites after the cross and we see him hurrying to Jerusalem to keep a feast day, All of which you say is no longer required,
But by the Example of Paul and not to mention all the other apostles for they witnessed to the Jews and did keep all the laws and feasts and Sabbaths themselves it should be obvious that they must have required all gentiles to do the same, Temple, Sabbath, and feasts and holy days are all shown to kept by the Apostlses.
As I said earlier the reason you do not see any instructions in the NT as to how the Gentiles were to keep and obey these things is because they already knew so it was not necessary to teach them, Not to mention that every Gentile was a Sabbath keeper and went to the Synagogue every Sabbath to learn Moses from the teachings of non Christian Jewish rabbi's so they all knew all about those things ,
Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
yours in Christ
deu 58
Then Why do we see Paul performing Temple rites? If he did these things then he must have believed that these were still necessary, Why would he want to convince the Jews that he followed the whole law if he did not agree that these things were necessary?
Ac 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Ac 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Ac 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Why would Paul even agree to these things if he did not believe Temple worship and ceremonial rites to be important? Would he not then be seeking to please man rather than God?
Ac 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Here we see Paul in a hurry to be in a Jerusalem to honor a feast day, Again all after the cross, So to follow your Logic we see that Jesus before the cross kept all the religious days and we see Paul going to the temple to perform temple rites after the cross and we see him hurrying to Jerusalem to keep a feast day, All of which you say is no longer required,
But by the Example of Paul and not to mention all the other apostles for they witnessed to the Jews and did keep all the laws and feasts and Sabbaths themselves it should be obvious that they must have required all gentiles to do the same, Temple, Sabbath, and feasts and holy days are all shown to kept by the Apostlses.
As I said earlier the reason you do not see any instructions in the NT as to how the Gentiles were to keep and obey these things is because they already knew so it was not necessary to teach them, Not to mention that every Gentile was a Sabbath keeper and went to the Synagogue every Sabbath to learn Moses from the teachings of non Christian Jewish rabbi's so they all knew all about those things ,
Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
yours in Christ
deu 58
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hi Cliff
Colossians 3:16-17: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality however is found in Christ."
Challenger's Comment: Notice that the timing in the verse, a festival is yearly, a New Moon celebration is monthly, and a sabbath is weekly and no one is to judge regarding this.
OUR RESPONSE: What does Paul mean when he says, "Do not let anyone judge you?" Is Paul condemning these practices? How do you explain the parallel statement in Romans 14:3? Further, does the text in the original Greek say "Sabbath day" or "Sabbaths"?
Actually your church seems to disagree with you, The above statement is from the SDA website you posted that is offering the 25,000 for a text about the Sabbath, So considering that according to their view that this verse actually supports Saturday Sabbath keeping in the New Testament then it also must support that we must observe the Festivals, the New Moons and ALL the Sabbaths, This would include any and all sacrifices that would be included with those days,
yours in Christ
deu 58
Colossians 3:16-17: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality however is found in Christ."
Challenger's Comment: Notice that the timing in the verse, a festival is yearly, a New Moon celebration is monthly, and a sabbath is weekly and no one is to judge regarding this.
OUR RESPONSE: What does Paul mean when he says, "Do not let anyone judge you?" Is Paul condemning these practices? How do you explain the parallel statement in Romans 14:3? Further, does the text in the original Greek say "Sabbath day" or "Sabbaths"?
Actually your church seems to disagree with you, The above statement is from the SDA website you posted that is offering the 25,000 for a text about the Sabbath, So considering that according to their view that this verse actually supports Saturday Sabbath keeping in the New Testament then it also must support that we must observe the Festivals, the New Moons and ALL the Sabbaths, This would include any and all sacrifices that would be included with those days,
yours in Christ
deu 58
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By keeping the festival one would be trying to earn their salavtion. That becomes righteousness by works and not by faith.
They pointed forward to the cross and ended at the cross. That has nothing to do with the Sabbath as that was written in stone and placed inside the ark.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hi Cliff
Well, It does appear you SDA's really have a hard time keeping your doctrines straight, Your $25,000 church says feasts and New moons are still binding yet for some reason we really only have to obey the Sabbath part and not the rest of it and your number one theologian Dr. B blows your Investigative Judgment doctrine right out of the water trying to defend the Sabbath in an on line debate over the very same verse,
http://www.bible.ca/7-Bacchiocchi-lewis-debate.htm#bacc1
Debate #1
Samuele Bacchiocchi
Vs.
John Lewis
By this daring metaphor Paul affirms that through Christ, God has "cancelled," "set aside,""nailed to the cross" "the written record of our sins which because of the regulations was against us." The legal basis of the record of sins was "the binding statutes, regulations" (tois dogmasin) but what God destroyed on the Cross was not the legal ground (law) for our entanglement in sin, but the written record of our sins.
By destroying the evidence of our sins, God has also "disarmed the principalities and powers" (2:15) since it is no longer possible for them to accuse those who have been forgiven. There is no reason therefore for Christians to feel incomplete and to seek the help of inferior mediators, since Christ has provided complete redemption and forgiveness.
We conclude then that the document nailed to the cross is not the law in general or the Sabbath in particular, but rather the record of our sins. Any attempt to read into it a reference to the Sabbath or to any other Old Testament ordinance is an unwarranted and gratuitous fantasy.
This is a far cry from what the Prophetess said was revealed to her considering the Investigative Judgment,
The Faith I Live By
Pg 213
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. . . .
But God says,
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Pg 203
In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this. The long, black catalogue of our delinquencies is before the eye of the Infinite. The register is complete; none of our offenses are forgotten. But He who listened to the cries of His servants of old, will hear the prayer of faith and pardon our transgressions.
Evangelism
Pg 222
Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {Ev 221.3}
But God says,
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It would seem that Col 2:16-17 are a scriptural La Brae tar pit for you SDA's, To Uplift the Sabbath your top Theologian shoots down the Investigative Judgment, Another group that is offering cash to any who can show that Saturday is no longer the Sabbath says this verse actually says that keeping the whole ceremonial law is necessary, but for some reason you SDA's only keep the Sabbath part of it,
Any attempt to read into it a reference to the Sabbath or to any other Old Testament ordinance is an unwarranted and gratuitous fantasy.
It seems that Dr B is in agreement with your $25,000 dollar brethren though that Col 2:16 does not state that the observance of any OT ordinance is no longer necessary, Now I see why you say it was not necessary for the Apostles to teach the Gentiles about Sabbath keeping, They were already keeping the Jewish feast days, New Moons and Sabbaths as Pagans!
yours in Christ
deu58
Well, It does appear you SDA's really have a hard time keeping your doctrines straight, Your $25,000 church says feasts and New moons are still binding yet for some reason we really only have to obey the Sabbath part and not the rest of it and your number one theologian Dr. B blows your Investigative Judgment doctrine right out of the water trying to defend the Sabbath in an on line debate over the very same verse,
http://www.bible.ca/7-Bacchiocchi-lewis-debate.htm#bacc1
Debate #1
Samuele Bacchiocchi
Vs.
John Lewis
By this daring metaphor Paul affirms that through Christ, God has "cancelled," "set aside,""nailed to the cross" "the written record of our sins which because of the regulations was against us." The legal basis of the record of sins was "the binding statutes, regulations" (tois dogmasin) but what God destroyed on the Cross was not the legal ground (law) for our entanglement in sin, but the written record of our sins.
By destroying the evidence of our sins, God has also "disarmed the principalities and powers" (2:15) since it is no longer possible for them to accuse those who have been forgiven. There is no reason therefore for Christians to feel incomplete and to seek the help of inferior mediators, since Christ has provided complete redemption and forgiveness.
We conclude then that the document nailed to the cross is not the law in general or the Sabbath in particular, but rather the record of our sins. Any attempt to read into it a reference to the Sabbath or to any other Old Testament ordinance is an unwarranted and gratuitous fantasy.
This is a far cry from what the Prophetess said was revealed to her considering the Investigative Judgment,
The Faith I Live By
Pg 213
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. . . .
But God says,
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Pg 203
In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this. The long, black catalogue of our delinquencies is before the eye of the Infinite. The register is complete; none of our offenses are forgotten. But He who listened to the cries of His servants of old, will hear the prayer of faith and pardon our transgressions.
Evangelism
Pg 222
Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {Ev 221.3}
But God says,
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It would seem that Col 2:16-17 are a scriptural La Brae tar pit for you SDA's, To Uplift the Sabbath your top Theologian shoots down the Investigative Judgment, Another group that is offering cash to any who can show that Saturday is no longer the Sabbath says this verse actually says that keeping the whole ceremonial law is necessary, but for some reason you SDA's only keep the Sabbath part of it,
Any attempt to read into it a reference to the Sabbath or to any other Old Testament ordinance is an unwarranted and gratuitous fantasy.
It seems that Dr B is in agreement with your $25,000 dollar brethren though that Col 2:16 does not state that the observance of any OT ordinance is no longer necessary, Now I see why you say it was not necessary for the Apostles to teach the Gentiles about Sabbath keeping, They were already keeping the Jewish feast days, New Moons and Sabbaths as Pagans!
yours in Christ
deu58
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The Investigative judgement is not the topic of this thread, if you want to start one up on that subject so this can concentrate on the Sabbath.
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Why do so many people who are under the new covenant argue about keeping Gods law when his law is the new covenant???????????
Jer. 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Heb.8
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Jer. 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Heb.8
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hi Cliff
I am simply showing that your doctrines Sabbath or otherwise are not biblical and even your best sda's trip over their own feet trying to defend what can not really be found in the scriptures,
This happened during a Sabbath debate which for some reason Dr B never finished, They said he violated some rule but did not really show how,
Yours in Christ
deu 58
Cliff2 said:
I am simply showing that your doctrines Sabbath or otherwise are not biblical and even your best sda's trip over their own feet trying to defend what can not really be found in the scriptures,
This happened during a Sabbath debate which for some reason Dr B never finished, They said he violated some rule but did not really show how,
Yours in Christ
deu 58
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hi Pablos run,
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
The law we have today is not the same law of the Old Testament, If it was we would be required to be performing the Same sacrifices in the same temple and observing all the same requirements feasts and days of the old law,
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
yours in Christ
deu 58
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
The law we have today is not the same law of the Old Testament, If it was we would be required to be performing the Same sacrifices in the same temple and observing all the same requirements feasts and days of the old law,
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
yours in Christ
deu 58
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