God's rule about solar systems.

[ReesePiece23]

That we know of. But that doesn't mean we're the only ones.

Well, yes. Quite. If they ARE out there, then they're probably smarter, know that WE'RE here, and know better than to not come here.

They've no doubt perfect communism and live in a utopia.

 

[Speedwell]

Well, yes. Quite. If they ARE out there, then they're probably smarter, know that WE'RE here, and know better than to not come here.

They've no doubt perfect communism and live in a utopia.

That seems a fanciful supposition; what do you base it on?

 

[Astrophile]

Alternatively, 2 earth like planets could exist on the same orbit if they are 180 degrees apart, i.e. on the opposite side of the sun / star to each other. They could never see each other because the sun would always be in the way.

In fact this is not possible; the orbits of these two planets would be unstable.

 

[Sorn]

In fact this is not possible; the orbits of these two planets would be unstable.

Why would their orbits be unstable?

 

[Ophiolite]

Why would their orbits be unstable?

Physics. For one thing the gravitational influence of other planets would introduce irregularities into the relative motions of the twins. For another all planetary systems are potentially chaotic. If you wish I can try to locate an explanatory link.

There is this wikipedia article on general chaos. Not exactly what you need, but close.

 

[ReesePiece23]

That seems a fanciful supposition; what do you base it on?

Well, nothing. We're just philosophising. Or at least I thought we were, I can see now that you're just looking to argue with someone.

 

[Ophiolite]

Well, nothing. We're just philosophising. Or at least I thought we were, I can see now that you're just looking to argue with someone.

Well, it is the science section of the forum. Not quite the same as philosophy. Indeed, both require rigorous formulation of ones ideas. That wasn't really the case in your post. Perhaps you meant chatting, not philosophising. Of course, if you disagree feel free to imagine I just want to argue.

 

[Sorn]

Because it is beyond God's power to make it so? Beyond God's power to bring such creatures into the Kingdom? What other reason could there possibly be? Why do you want to limit God in that way?

The reason for this is fairly lengthy and depends much on Christian theology, i assume you are not a Christian.

Anyway, basically, the bible teaches that man was created and that he sinned after giving in to Satan's temptation. Man was created in part in order to be tempted and tested as part of the answer to Lucifer/Satan's rebellion.
However God, in his grace and mercy and love, who knew this would happen, made a way for man to be reconciled to Him again. This being by Jesus coming to earth to live a sinless life as a man and to die for our sins.

The bible teaches that a flesh existence is not how we are meant to live, we are meant to have far better bodies (of which Jesus has one now) which are in fact higher than the bodies of angels, therefore, the true place we should be living is in heaven (or the new earth and heaven, yet to come). These bodies also will not die or perish. In short we live in these material bodies while the time of testing and temptation exists.

Now Jesus died for us so we can be saved and be able to attain life in heaven (new earth etc) and have glorified eternal bodies and life. In living on earth and dying he started Christianity and the message of Christianity is preached to this day to mankind.

To be saved you need to hear the message of the Gospel, know who Jesus is , understand the message and accept / believe on him as your Savior.

Now Jesus only died once, he will not die again, He is now seated at Gods right hand (ie in heaven as 2nd in command and even better than he was before his life and death here.)
However he still has the wounds of the nails etc to show he was crucified and he will apparently have these for eternity.


Now, if there were intelligent life comparable to us on other planets, then :
1) if they sinned they have no way to be saved as Jesus will not die again and he did not die for them. It would be like someone saying to us that Gods Son went to live on another planet as some alien and lived a perfect life there and if you believe that he did that then you can share in his salvation, but the story of his life and death be set in alien worlds and cultures etc with not one shred of proof. Yet you'd still be expected to live a moral life because of it and even die because of it.

No religion does that and one should not expect any alien life to understand, believe or accept what they are told about some far of planet called Earth.

In short this position states that any aliens that sin don't have a way to get right with God again AND therefore God would not have created them if he knew He would not be able to save them if they sinned.

2) Further, if the assumption is that there are aliens but they have never sinned, then they would not experience death as God would not let them die, but rather they would already have entered eternity, ie be at least equal to angels and hence not need to dwell in this material universe.

Lastly, the bible says that when Jesus 1000 year reign is over, some time after that the heavens and earth will be rolled up and replaced with new heavens and earth. This is saying that this universe exists as long as Gods plan for man is in operation, once the fullness of salvation has come to mankind, then this universe is replaced with the eternal heavenly universe and creation.

It is broadly due to this line of reasoning that i say that as a Christian, my theology leads me to conclude that there is no other comparable intelligent carbon based mortal life anywhere else in this universe, other than possibly plant and animal life.

 

[Sorn]

That seems a fanciful supposition; what do you base it on?

See my previous post, any other intelligent lie would by necessity not have sinned, otherwise they are doomed and God would not have created them. But if they don't sin then they would have been given eternal life long ago and not have to dwell in this material universe, but rather live where angels live.

 

[Sorn]

Physics. For one thing the gravitational influence of other planets would introduce irregularities into the relative motions of the twins. For another all planetary systems are potentially chaotic. If you wish I can try to locate an explanatory link.

There is this wikipedia article on general chaos. Not exactly what you need, but close.

Yeah, i get what you are saying but you can not rule out some arrangement of proto-planets planets, moons, gas giants etc that wouldn't result in 2 planet sharing a single orbit but 180 degrees apart and have that orbit stable enough for life to evolve / be created.

If such an arrangement was stable for a couple of billion years then that would be likely be enough for life to emerge.

Of course, if you allow God in the picture, i'm sure he could work out the physics to get a stable system like that, if he wanted to.

But even from a purely secular viewpoint, it'd be mighty rare but out of billions (trillions?) of solar systems, it may just happen a few times nevertheless and for long enough for earth like conditions to emerge.

 

[Ophiolite]

Yeah, i get what you are saying but you can not rule out some arrangement of proto-planets planets, moons, gas giants etc that wouldn't result in 2 planet sharing a single orbit but 180 degrees apart and have that orbit stable enough for life to evolve / be created.

That's precisely what I am ruling out. Since you are unconvinced with what I have presented so far (which is appropriately skeptical), I shall locate definitive material on the matter and post it when I find it.

In the meantime, it is possible that two planets could occupy the same orbit if one is relatively substantially more massive than the other. The smaller one would orbit 60 degrees ahead, or 60 degrees behind the major body, in the L1 or L2, Lagrangian position. This is analogous to the Trojan asteroids that group ahead and behind Jupiter. One possible example was located about ten years ago, but I don't know if it was confirmed.

 

[Speedwell]

The reason for this is fairly lengthy and depends much on Christian theology, i assume you are not a Christian.

Given the present political climate in the United States, that is true. I am an Anglican, a "Bible-hating, Christ-denying commie" which is why I put "other religion" in my profile. Only right-wing biblical literalist Evangelicals are considered real Christians here.

Anyway, basically, the bible teaches that man was created and that he sinned after giving in to Satan's temptation. Man was created in part in order to be tempted and tested as part of the answer to Lucifer/Satan's rebellion.
However God, in his grace and mercy and love, who knew this would happen, made a way for man to be reconciled to Him again. This being by Jesus coming to earth to live a sinless life as a man and to die for our sins.

The bible teaches that a flesh existence is not how we are meant to live, we are meant to have far better bodies (of which Jesus has one now) which are in fact higher than the bodies of angels, therefore, the true place we should be living is in heaven (or the new earth and heaven, yet to come). These bodies also will not die or perish. In short we live in these material bodies while the time of testing and temptation exists.

Now Jesus died for us so we can be saved and be able to attain life in heaven (new earth etc) and have glorified eternal bodies and life. In living on earth and dying he started Christianity and the message of Christianity is preached to this day to mankind.

To be saved you need to hear the message of the Gospel, know who Jesus is , understand the message and accept / believe on him as your Savior.

OK.

Now Jesus only died once, he will not die again, He is now seated at Gods right hand (ie in heaven as 2nd in command and even better than he was before his life and death here.)
However he still has the wounds of the nails etc to show he was crucified and he will apparently have these for eternity.

How do you know that?

Now, if there were intelligent life comparable to us on other planets, then :
1) if they sinned they have no way to be saved as Jesus will not die again and he did not die for them. It would be like someone saying to us that Gods Son went to live on another planet as some alien and lived a perfect life there and if you believe that he did that then you can share in his salvation, but the story of his life and death be set in alien worlds and cultures etc with not one shred of proof. Yet you'd still be expected to live a moral life because of it and even die because of it.

No religion does that and one should not expect any alien life to understand, believe or accept what they are told about some far of planet called Earth.

In short this position states that any aliens that sin don't have a way to get right with God again AND therefore God would not have created them if he knew He would not be able to save them if they sinned.

I agree. We are save by our faith in Christ and His Gospel as revealed to us. But the Atonement is to us a mystery, and how it might have been achieved with some entirely alien life form is beyond my ken. I cannot say it is impossible.

Further, if the assumption is that there are aliens but they have never sinned, then they would not experience death as God would not let them die, but rather they would already have entered eternity, ie be at least equal to angels and hence not need to dwell in this material universe.

Lastly, the bible says that when Jesus 1000 year reign is over, some time after that the heavens and earth will be rolled up and replaced with new heavens and earth. This is saying that this universe exists as long as Gods plan for man is in operation, once the fullness of salvation has come to mankind, then this universe is replaced with the eternal heavenly universe and creation.

Well, I am not a millenialist, so I don't see how that figures into it but again, see no reason why an omnipotent God cannot include all of his creatures in a plan of salvation, however alien and distant they may seem to us.

It is broadly due to this line of reasoning that i say that as a Christian, my theology leads me to conclude that there is no other comparable intelligent carbon based mortal life anywhere else in this universe, other than possibly plant and animal life.

We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Speedwell]

That's precisely what I am ruling out. Since you are unconvinced with what I have presented so far (which is appropriately skeptical), I shall locate definitive material on the matter and post it when I find it.

In the meantime, it is possible that two planets could occupy the same orbit if one is relatively substantially more massive than the other. The smaller one would orbit 60 degrees ahead, or 60 degrees behind the major body, in the L1 or L2, Lagrangian position. This is analogous to the Trojan asteroids that group ahead and behind Jupiter. One possible example was located about ten years ago, but I don't know if it was confirmed.

I believe there have been a number of them observed and in other planetary orbits as well.

Trojan (celestial body) - Wikipedia

 

[Sorn]

That's precisely what I am ruling out. Since you are unconvinced with what I have presented so far (which is appropriately skeptical), I shall locate definitive material on the matter and post it when I find it.

In the meantime, it is possible that two planets could occupy the same orbit if one is relatively substantially more massive than the other. The smaller one would orbit 60 degrees ahead, or 60 degrees behind the major body, in the L1 or L2, Lagrangian position. This is analogous to the Trojan asteroids that group ahead and behind Jupiter. One possible example was located about ten years ago, but I don't know if it was confirmed.

I'd be interested to see a definitive argument against it.
2 planets diametrically opposed to each other and on the same orbit relative to their star would to me not interact with each other, or perturb or be perturbed too much with other planets.
May be very difficult to achieve but once there may actually be fairly stable, for several billion years anyway.

I'd be pretty sure that there would be many asteroids & possibly several pluto size planets in the asteroid, Kuiper belt and Oort clouds that are on identical orbits to each other but on the other side of the sun relative to each other. Of course its much easier for a large rock than a whole planet but still seems do-able to me.

*i relaize no pluto sized planetoids in asteroid belt as such.

 

[Sorn]

I believe there have been a number of them observed and in other planetary orbits as well.

Trojan (celestial body) - Wikipedia

Yep, no issue with that but that does not rule out or explain why physics makes it impossible for a 180 degree separation to exist between 2 planetary bodies.

 

[Speedwell]

Yep, no issue with that but that does not rule out or explain why physics makes it impossible for a 180 degree separation to exist between 2 planetary bodies.

Perhaps Ophiolite will come up with a lucid explanation. I know that there is one, because in my youth such a planet was proposed as the basis of a popular science fiction story and at the time astronomers put forward in response a convincing explanation as to why orbital mechanics did not permit a stable orbit for such a body--I just don't remember in detail what it was.

 

[Sorn]

"Now Jesus only died once, he will not die again, He is now seated at Gods right hand (ie in heaven as 2nd in command and even better than he was before his life and death here.)
However he still has the wounds of the nails etc to show he was crucified and he will apparently have these for eternity."

How do you know that?

The crucifixion of Jesus was no picnic for him, the Gospels make that abundantly clear. Its one of the worst ways to die. He won't be doing it again, ever. He won't be dying again, period.

 

[Sorn]

Perhaps Ophiolite will come up with a lucid explanation. I know that there is one, because in my youth such a planet was proposed as the basis of a popular science fiction story and at the time astronomers put forward in response a convincing explanation as to why orbital mechanics did not permit a stable orbit for such a body--I just don't remember in detail what it was.

Yep, that's what they want you to believe! In the meantime the governments of the world are sending their top scientists to scout out the 2nd earth, discovered in the 70's on the other side of the Sun!!

Or at least that's how to have some fun with work colleagues at lunch now and then!

 

[Speedwell]

Yep, that's what they want you to believe! In the meantime the governments of the world are sending their top scientists to scout out the 2nd earth, discovered in the 70's on the other side of the Sun!!

Or at least that's how to have some fun with work colleagues at lunch now and then!

Yes, that was the nature of the story only it was in the 50s that it came to my attention, not the 70s (that was Marvel Comics, I believe). It was where flying saucers were supposed to have come from.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I live in Australia darling.

They only look black because you spend so much of your time upside down.

One of the costs of living "down under".