God's promises to Noah, climate change, and these Last Days

[eclipsenow]

Doesn’t God’s promises to Noah debunk climate change?
The point of the flood story was theological, not scientific. It’s symbolic, not scientific. This is not from Christianity being at all ‘embarrassed’ by science - but more modern findings in textual analysis and hermeneutics (the science of reading old literature as the ancients read it.) So how are we to read the Noah story?

Clue 1: Disorder and Order.

Consider how across Genesis 1-11 God brings Disorder coming into Order. In the Creation story the world was watery and Disordered, then God divided water and land, sky and water, night and day and brought Order. Mankind sinned and reintroduced Disorder - and God sent them out of Eden. Sin abounds. Eventually human behaviour is so harmful that it again represents growing Disorder - and God chooses a hero Noah to save his special family that he is choosing to develop - and wipes out ‘the world’. The mid point of the story is Noah sitting safe on the top of the chaos we saw before. The flood represents ‘un-creation’ and a return to Disorder - but Noah and his family and animals represents God’s saving Order coming to the world. The message is not a trite one about how God can work even through natural disasters, but that in this flood God was taking specific action to bring about his plans of salvation for the world through Noah’s family all the way down to Jesus. Then Noah's family grow but soon Disorder creeps in again. Mankind are focused on making a name for themselves and building the tower of Babel. This sounds Orderly but it is their own Order - not God’s Order which was to have them spread out and fill the world and trust Him for their name and security. This is the Disorder of another revolution - so God brings his Order back by dividing them. (There’s divine division coming into creation again to bring his order.)

Clue 2: Chiastic structure.

Noah story is written in the highly stylised Chiastic Structure. That's the Hebrew 'hamburger' story - where the most important 'meat' of the story is in the middle - and the events leading into it are mirrored going out of it the other side. The most important part of this story is Noah safe on top of the waters - representing God’s Order over the Disorder. What does this mean about the genre of Noah's flood? It's HIGHLY STYLISED - almost like a parable but with real characters and events in the deep background of the story. For more see Chiastic structure - Wikipedia

Clue 3: The use Ancient Middle-Eastern Cosmology! The floodgates of heaven and the springs of the deep both invoke the WHOLE COSMOLOGY of the Ancient Middle East. This involved domes over heaven, waters over those domes, and floodgates to let the water through. Needless to say - NASA didn’t find those floodgates when they went to the moon! For more on the cosmology see this wiki.

Biblical cosmology - Wikipedia

Here’s a great podcast on the flood. The Flood - Undeceptions

For more on the Genre of the first chapter of Genesis and the creation narrative, try: The genre of Genesis 1: an historical approach - Centre for Public Christianity More at his podcast. Six Days - Undeceptions

Noah’s flood and Climate Change?

So the promise to not destroy the earth again is a promise to not UNCREATE the world. It’s NOT a promise that there would be no more natural disasters. Indeed just a third of the way through Genesis we find God warning his people about terrible droughts and famines that were coming. Where’s the ‘harvest will never fail’ within the book of Genesis, let alone the rest of the bible!? Harvests failed IN GENESIS ITSELF. That alone should be a clue that the promise to Noah was not one of universal blessing all the time, but that it's about something else.

So what's the theology here? God’s saving plans were achieved through Noah, then through Abraham, then through Moses, then tall the way down to Jesus. God’s promises to Noah are not to UNCREATE THE WORLD because he saved Noah and achieved his purposes in that, then Abraham, then Moses, then eventually Jesus.

Indeed, us Christians read Romans Chapter 1 where Paul says 3 times that God “hands us over” to our sinful lives and the consequences of that sin. We read about a famine in Jerusalem and how the broader church responded in love and care to the ‘harvests failing’ - not denying it happened because of God’s promise to Noah!

My eschatological summary of all this? We read Revelation where it describes chaos in nature. Climate change fits neatly within the parameters we have in our bibles. A loving God, frustrated with sin, hands us over to the consequences of our actions but offers warning in that and salvation for those who trust in Jesus. There’s NO NEED to UNCREATE the world again because God achieved his purposes in bringing Order through Jesus - and now we await the fulfilment of all that in his final Judgement and Return.

As a theologian friend wrote:

“God may have promised to Noah that "never again would there be a flood to destroy the earth", but he made no such promise to thwart our ongoing (and increasingly successful) attempt to undermine the conditions for stable human civilisation through our hubris and greed. The Noah account in Genesis doesn't promise no more floods, not even no future floods that wipe out cities or bring down societies, far less that God will prevent us from causing floods through our own shortsightedness, just that "all flesh" will not be cut off by a flood again.”

…. (some Christians) have “misread the passage, perhaps through failing to distinguish different kinds of threats. A flood (or other threat) doesn't need to cut off all flesh or to be "the end of the world" for it to be worth serious policy consideration. Sloppy exegesis and an escapist eschatology are here linked directly to deadly politics. Bad theology kills.” nothing new under the sun: Bad theology kills​

Indeed, the former Archbishop of the Church of England Rowan Williams said:

There is no guarantee that the world we live in will 'tolerate' us indefinitely if we prove ourselves unable to live within its constraints. Is this – as some would claim – a failure to trust God, who has promised faithfulness to what he has made? I think that to suggest that God might intervene to protect us from the corporate folly of our practices is as unchristian and unbiblical as to suggest that he protects us from the results of our individual folly or sin. This is not a creation in which there are no real risks; our faith has always held that the inexhaustible love of God cannot compel justice or virtue; we are capable of doing immeasurable damage to ourselves as individuals, and it seems clear that we have the same terrible freedom as a human race. God's faithfulness stands, assuring us that even in the most appalling disaster love will not let us go; but it will not be a safety net that guarantees a happy ending in this world. Any religious language that implies this is making a nonsense of the prophetic tradition of the Old Testament and the urgency of the preaching of Jesus.
nothing new under the sun: No divine guarantees​

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So how are we to read the Noah story?

Literally. The flood was experience by many cultures so it can be somewhat assumed it actually happened. As far as God's promise, there is always a chance fire will consume the earth not water. Blessings.

 

[DavidPT]

there is always a chance fire will consume the earth

No there isn't a chance of that. Being drowned to death is bad enough. Imagine being burned to death. That is obviously thousands of times worse than being drowned to death. How can we know? Picture a ship out at sea and that it is engulfed in flames and no way to extinguish the flames. What is one naturally going to do in that situation? Stay aboard the ship risking being burned to death, or jump overboard risking drowning eventually? Not one single person still in their right mind would choose the former. There have even been cases where ppl have been trapped high in a skyscraper engulfed in flames, and that they jumped out of the windows. Either way they were going to die, and they chose jumping to their death rather than being burned alive instead.


Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.


According to some interpretations God apparently found a loophole. Instead of drowning all flesh again via another flood, this time around He's going to do something thousands of times worse, He's literally going to engulf the entire planet in flames and burn everyone to death this time around. After all, at least He kept His word, He didn't drown all flesh again via a flood, right?

 

[JulieB67]

Wow - Genesis says exactly that only a few chapters later.
Is Genesis calling God a liar? See here for the example I give.
God's promises to Noah, climate change, and these Last Days

Consider how across Genesis 1-11 God brings Disorder coming into Order. In the Creation story the world was watery and Disordered, then God divided water and land, sky and water, night and day and brought Order.

Actually, God specifically states in Isaiah that he did not create the earth in vain -same word as void. He created it to be inhabited. Without form (tohu) means a wasted ruin so to speak. And since God said he didn't create it that way than we know the right translation is that it "became void and without form. And when we take the bible as a whole (2nd Peter, etc) we can rightly assume that the earth is millions if not billions of years old. And of course we have the fossils to prove it. But we don't even need science to tells us this fact, God's states it.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

II Peter 3:4 "And saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? for since the father fell asleep, all thing continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Not one Christian is wllingly ignorant about Noah's flood. And Peter talks about the 8 souls that lived in Noah's time in chapter 2. Also Peter 3:4 notes the beginning of creation. So we are talking about a time that people are "willingly ignorant" about. We are talking about a prior time and 2nd Peter 3 is describing the state of the earth in Genesis 1:2.

In 2nd Peter 3: God is talking about the last day scoffers and about how they will say "where is the promise of his coming?" It's noted that they are ignorant about the fact that the earth is of old. So what seems long to us is nothing compared to how old the earth really is. That's God's entire point. It's ancient. So what is a 1000 years or even 2000 years is nothing to God compared to how old the earth really is. And this is what they are willingly ignorant about.

And again in Isaiah he states did not create it in vain which is the same exact Hebrew word for void.


Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

So we see for certain that God did not create a massive ruined earth. Which was the state the earth was in in Genesis 1. He created it to be inhabited.

God also touches on this in Jeremiah when in his anger about their idol worship, etc he talks about them not knowing him and having no understanding (same as 2nd Peter) he says

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

He sets the stage and takes us right back to Genesis 1

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

We see those two verse mirror one another. So this tells us what he is about to state is not about Noah's flood he's talking an earlier time.

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

In his anger all mountains trembled and all of the hills moved. This is why there are certain places on the maps that looked like they used to fit together. This is God's big bang if you will. Science doesn't even have to tell us that, God's word just did.


Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Unlike Noah's time, nothing survived this time period.

Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

Afterwards he goes back to the present moment.

But it was paradise at one time. And that's why there are certain fossils of african animals found in the US and so on. The climate "was" perfect. He gave this earth in the beginning a perfect climate. It was heaven on earth. He also tells us exactly who populated this earth at that time when he first laid the foundations of the earth in Job. He asks Job once again does he himself have understanding.


Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"


Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

This is why there have been found fossilized footprints and so on. We know angels have mass, they eat, etc. (among other things)

Science and the bible can coexist on certain aspects. How old the earth really is, fossils that have been found. But they choose to put evolution and an asteroid to fit their narrative when the Bible completely states what happened, the earth is "of old" it became void and without form. But our Father wants us to seek out these truths for ourselves. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We have the tools to translate much of what is lost in certain translations but it is possible. And we have to take the bible as a whole.

But that time was destroyed and the earth and heavens which are now started when God beheld the earth that had become void and without form. Later on he states -let dry land appear. Meaning it was there but wet under all that water.


II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Peter then tells us that the present earth is kept in "store" until the day of judgement.


I Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

So again, once more nothing we do personally will not change that. God is going to keep this earth in store until the end.


The most important factor that we need to take away from the story of the Noah and the flood is that his family were the only ones that hadn't mixed with the fallen angels. The sons of God are angels (described as such in Job) and the daughters of men are human.

Genesis 6:9 "These are THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH; Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

Perfect in his generations means exactly that in regards to pedigree.

This was the sin described in Jude and it's a serious abomination to our Father. Whether or not someone believes this to be true or not is another matter but that's what's written.

All that aside, it has nothing to do with God's promise that cold and hot shall not cease. Enough climate conditions so that seedtime and harvest shall not cease while the earth remains.

Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

There's nothing there to even symbolise, no talk of promises of "uncreating the earth and so on. God is very straightforward. He states all of those things "shall not cease".


Does this mean that certain harvests aren't ruined, etc? Natural disasters will not happen? No, of course not but we still have the climate today and always will so that we are able to harvest and plant seeds period. Cold and hot will not cease while the earth remains.
And if you would rather align with the world and certain "so called" experts that have absolutely no hidden agendas rather than God's word, feel free. But God's word and it's truth is what ultimately sets someone free, free from the bondage of this world. If you want to call it escapism fine. And if you want to claim every verse I've posted is symbolic, that's fine as well. Not really looking for a debate, I've posted my beliefs and the scriptures that form those beliefs- and in the end we are all sailing our own ships.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No there isn't a chance of that. Being drowned to death is bad enough. Imagine being burned to death. That is obviously thousands of times worse than being drowned to death.

That is simply not true. Most likely, the fire God sends down on the earth would kill people instantly. But, people don't drown instantly. So, I couldn't disagree with you more here.

How do you interpret this verse:

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

How can we know? Picture a ship out at sea and that it is engulfed in flames and no way to extinguish the flames. What is one naturally going to do in that situation? Stay aboard the ship risking being burned to death, or jump overboard risking drowning eventually? Not one single person still in their right mind would choose the former. There have even been cases where ppl have been trapped high in a skyscraper engulfed in flames, and that they jumped out of the windows. Either way they were going to die, and they chose jumping to their death rather than being burned alive instead.

What gives you the impression that this is how it would work? Instead, I'm thinking it would be like what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah. By the way, do you have a problem with what God did to those cities? It seems like you have a problem with God sending fire down to the earth. Anyway, the impression given in scripture of what happened to those cities is that they were basically instantly incinerated rather than set on fire while burning for a period of time during which people tried to escape the fire and couldn't.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

According to some interpretations God apparently found a loophole. Instead of drowning all flesh again via another flood, this time around He's going to do something thousands of times worse, He's literally going to engulf the entire planet in flames and burn everyone to death this time around. After all, at least He kept His word, He didn't drown all flesh again via a flood, right?

What loophole? There is no loophole. It very specifically says He will not destroy the earth with a flood again. It does NOT say He would never destroy the earth again in any way.

Your claim that destroying the earth with fire is worse the destroying the earth with water is a false claim based on a flawed understanding of what will happen. Also, you should not interpret scripture based on your emotions like this. If scripture says God is going to do something then you should accept it whether you understand it or not. God's ways are not our ways. He is not obligated to refrain from sending fire down upon the entire earth just because you're uncomfortable with that.

 

[Blade]

God once told Israel if you do the same sins those other people nations do the earth will spit you out. So look at the world and the sin that grows since the enemy knows his time is over. Call it what ever you wish what is written is happening not just a storm here and there then some earthquake or flood. No all are happening at once. Man will call it something and the fix man wants will do nothing. Again what is written is going to happen. It will not get better before He comes.

 

[eclipsenow]

And Peter talks about the 8 souls that lived in Noah's time in chapter 2.

So many words - so few on the actual topic.

It's possible to refer to parables without saying something is a parable. EG: We might say something like "Remember Romeo and Juliet's love for each other..." without saying "Remember in the fictional story Romeo and Juliet, the fictional character Romeo loved the fictional character Juliet..."

It depends on how Peter is referring to Genesis - and what point he is making. The main point he is making here is that God knows how to rescue his people.

Your point DOES NOT deal with the Disorder / Order sequence we see in Genesis 1 to 11, nor the Chiastic Structure of the flood story itself, nor the fact that the creation narrative and flood stories are dressed up in the cosmology of the Ancient Middle East. You have talked about many other things - and inserted many of your own theories that modern peer-reviewed Reformed theology simply does not accept - but basically avoided the subject of this thread which is about the type of writing Genesis 1 to 11 actually is and how we know. Not various obscure points you might decide to take from it!

The most important factor that we need to take away from the story of the Noah and the flood is that his family were the only ones that hadn't mixed with the fallen angels. The sons of God are angels (described as such in Job) and the daughters of men are human.

Um, no. The most important point is Noah sitting on top of the water. That's just how Chiastic structure works.

Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

Now we're finally on topic!

There's nothing there to even symbolise, no talk of promises of "uncreating the earth and so on. God is very straightforward. He states all of those things "shall not cease".

There sure is - the VAULT OF HEAVEN ITSELF! (See image above).
We've flown around this planet and there's no VAULT touching the earth at the edges, nor floodgates to the moon, etc. Also, the waters! There's just nothing but water. So if the VAULT is symbolic, that's a strong indication that this entire chapter is symbolic. Indeed, I linked above to a whole paper on the number symbolism in Genesis 1 - which is rich in other meaning. First the number of words in the Hebrew in the first line is 7, then the next line has 14. That's like underlining the heading to the ancient world. "Listen up, pay attention, there are 7's here!"

There's much more on that here, but basically, the first 3 days are the creation of the forms, the second 3 days the filling of the forms, and the last day is the purpose of it all - which is why God rested. It's number symbolism laid across functional symbolism. "Light" is the form, then the "Sun and Moon" fill the light. See how it works?

Now, water! In Genesis 1 we see a water world, chaotic with water. But there's hope - God is about to divide the waters.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.​

Then we get to the flood.

Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark. 24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.​

What do we have? A water world, chaotic with water having wiped out everything under the vault of heaven, and under those troublesome - highly symbolic floodgates. But there's a difference! Noah is on top of the water!

8 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth.​

Chiastic structure + the metaphor of AMEC (Ancient Middle Eastern Cosmology) + Disorder / Order sequence = SYMBOLIC WRITING!

Does this mean that certain harvests aren't ruined, etc? Natural disasters will not happen? No, of course not

I agree with you - but how do you come to that conclusion? Because if you read Genesis 1 to 11 literally, then this promise is literal as well.

The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

22 “As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.”​

But just a little way into Genesis we DO see the seedtime and harvest ceasing! There's famine! What gives? How do YOU explain it? I know how I explain it - but how do you?

but we still have the climate today and always will so that we are able to harvest and plant seeds period.

No - NOT PERIOD! Not the end of the story.
IF Noah is literal,
then the promise is literal as well. No wiggle room!
God has promised seedtime and harvest will NEVER CEASE - PERIOD!
Except they do. Please explain?

Cold and hot will not cease while the earth remains

.
So how many seedtime and harvests failing break this promise? 1%? 5%? 20%? 50%?

Genesis itself breaks this promise.
Please explain? (And try and write succinctly and stay on topic - I don't have time for your longer rambling posts.)

And if you would rather align with the world and certain "so called" experts that have absolutely no hidden agendas rather than God's word, feel free.

What on earth are you talking about? The first head of the IPCC - Sir John Houghton - was a sincere and thinking Christian. There are many Christian climatologists like Katharine Hayhoe and Christian environmental authors like Bill McKibben.

Please watch 3 minutes of Bill here. It's awesome!

But God's word and it's truth is what ultimately sets someone free, free from the bondage of this world.

I hope you mean world as in the dominant anti-God spirit of our age, and not physical world. The physical world is good!

If you want to call it escapism fine. And if you want to claim every verse I've posted is symbolic, that's fine as well.

You quoted New Testament verses that are theological and QUOTE some symbolic writing - like Peter referencing Noah - but also quote other things that were more concrete in their writing style in the unfolding events of God's plans for the world. So no - I'm NOT saying the whole bible is figurative - I'm NOT even saying the whole of Genesis is figurative. Except the bits that are! It requires wisdom and hermeneutics and paying attention to the literary clues in each chunk of the bible to know whether it is poetic, chiastic, symbolic, literal, historical, historical narrative, mytho-history, song, psalm, history, genealogy, biography, etc.

Not really looking for a debate, I've posted my beliefs and in the end we are all sailing our own ships.

Ah - that's why you didn't really bother to stay on topic. Are you really saying you just wanted to state your own beliefs? Not deal with awkward facts like the Disorder / Order sequence, Chiastic Structure and the AMEC?

Well, at least you are honest about your motives - but it does all fit the picture of you not going to church for 20 years. I'm concerned. I think it would be really good for you and the church if you went back to church and encouraged other believers and got some encouragement yourself. Rub shoulders with your brothers and sisters again. They need you, and you need them. Get in the habit of actually debating with people face to face what and why you believe certain things. I think it will do you the world of good! Stay safe.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 42:14-15 Long have I restrained Myself, I kept silence and held Myself in check. I shall lay waste to mountain and hill, dry up the trees and fields. I shall dry up the rivers and empty the lakes.

The Lord is about to act once again in His creation – The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath - the next prophesied, worldwide event. The first of a series of judgements and punishments to His enemies and blessings to His faithful Christian people, Isaiah 44:1-3, leading to the culmination of this age – the Return of Jesus.


Isaiah 42:11-17 The Lord will go forth as a warrior; He will shout His battle cry and will triumph over His enemies.
I will guide the blind along unfamiliar paths and will make the way smooth for them. But those who do not trust Me, they will be put to shame.

Isaiah 42:10-12 Sing a new song to the Lord – throughout the world, you on the seas and you that inhabit the coasts and islands. Let all people give glory to the Lord!

This is the gathering and settling of His people into all of the holy Land.


Isaiah42:18-20 Hear now: you deaf people, you My servants that are blind: look and see! Who is so blind as My servants? So deaf as the messengers that I send? You have seen much, but perceived little. Your ears are open but you hear nothing.

The Lord’s servants: every faithful Christian, all those who love Him and obey His Laws, fail to see or listen to the truths that are prophesied about these end times.

Why is this?

Isaiah 29:9-12 If you confuse yourselves, you will stay confused. For the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor, the prophetic vision of it all has become like the words in a sealed book.

How can we really understand what the prophets are telling us?
2 Peter 1:19 We have the word of the prophets, you do well to pay attention to it, as a light shining in a dark place and when the day dawns, it will illuminate your minds.

Isaiah 29:22-24 This is no time for Jacob to be afraid, when they see what I will do for them, they will regard their God with awe. The confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction.
Jacob/Israel and Joseph; now refer to every faithful Christian person. Galatians 3:26-29

So, it may not be until after the Lord has acted against His enemies, that His people will finally realize and understand His plans and purposes for them. Psalms 60:1-5


Zechariah 10:6-12 I shall give triumph and victory to Judah and Joseph and in My compassion, I shall restore them as though I had never cast them off. My people will see and be glad, for I will deliver them. I will whistle to call them in and they will be as many as they used to be. Though dispersed among the nations and yet in far off lands, they will remember Me. I shall bring them home from wherever they are and will lead them into all the holy Land, until there is no more room. Their strength will be in God, they will march proudly in His Name. Ref: REB, some verses abridged

The Lord’s Christian people are gathered and settled into their own Land, after He judges and punishes His enemies. Jeremiah 12:14-17, Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 11:11-12

Unfortunately these events will come as a surprise to the secular world and to many Bible believers. Why should you be shocked and taken unawares by them?

 

[eclipsenow]

God once told Israel if you do the same sins those other people nations do the earth will spit you out. So look at the world and the sin that grows since the enemy knows his time is over. Call it what ever you wish what is written is happening not just a storm here and there then some earthquake or flood. No all are happening at once. Man will call it something and the fix man wants will do nothing. Again what is written is going to happen. It will not get better before He comes.

Romans 1 says God hands us over (3 times!) to our sin and the consequences of our sin. That is, as we sin it has terrible impacts on others - which is what Paul's focus is on in Romans 1. How is climate change any different to that? Burning coal itself isn't a 'sin' in that it helped kick start the Industrial Revolution - and a little bit wasn't hurting the environment. But now it is abundantly clear what it is doing, and how unloving it is to developing countries overseas and the next generation/s at home. Now we know there are better sources of power.

 

[JulieB67]

Ah - that's why you didn't really bother to stay on topic.

You brought up the creation story so I dove into that. Which now I'm regretting because I keep forgetting it's impossible to have a straight up bible discussion with you. You bring everything into it other than scriptures- graphs, links, websites, videos and so on. Yes, I can get a bit too wordy. But first and foremost we should always bring plenty of scripture to the table. Because that's what we as Christians should first base our beliefs on. We are to study for "ourselves" to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word. And no, not everyone needs to be a theologian to do so. Christ always asked,"Haven't you read?"

God has promised seedtime and harvest will NEVER CEASE - PERIOD!
Except they do. Please explain?

Do we still have seed time and harvest today? Yes we do. God stated that cold and winter shall not cease and seedtime and harvest. Meaning we will always have the climate for that to take place while this present earth remains.

(And try and write succinctly and stay on topic - I don't have time for your longer rambling posts.)

As I said, yes, I can get a big wordy but when one is trying to make a point in the bible, sometimes many many scriptures are needed/used. That's taking the bible as a whole. Unlike you, who needs to post videos, other people's commentaries, theories and so on. I'll just stick to the bible. And sometimes God's certain truths about a subject are spread throughout. And the first graph talked about the creation story so I was on topic with that and that's why I proceeded.

I think it would be really good for you and the church if you went back to church

Um, sitting on a pew, listening to someone post a few verses followed by a personal sermon that has nothing to do with God's word? No thanks I'll pass. As I said before one could spend a lifetime in church and only come away being fed milk. Pretty sad really. And I have plenty of encouragement from others and God's word.

Not deal with awkward facts like the Disorder / Order sequence, Chiastic Structure and the AMEC?

No thanks, I'll pass.

There, I shortened it up for you.

 

[eclipsenow]

But first and foremost we should always bring plenty of scripture to the table.

But you want a slightly Disney-esque, anti-intellectual, anti-hemerneutics version of Genesis that just ignores the facts from the texts themselves! What do think the graphics are based on? It's all there - that's the Ancient Middle Eastern Cosmology! The 'vaults' or 'firmament' of heaven are there! The well springs of the deep are there! The storehouses of the winds are also in scripture. So is the Chiastic Structure - I mean you can't be denying that. There's a number of scriptures that use it! Open your eyes.

Do we still have seed time and harvest today? Yes we do. God stated that cold and winter shall not cease and seedtime and harvest. Meaning we will always have the climate for that to take place while this present earth remains.

But it failed in Genesis! So you haven't answered the question. Is Genesis lying about God? Also, WHICH climate will we always have? Where does the bible explain that?

See, there's weather, and climate. Weather is what's happening this week, climate is average temperatures across a decade. Weather is really chaotic and hard to predict - but climate is relatively easy physics and maths and easy to predict. Newsflash: we had ice ages - that was a very different climate. Then we had the pre-industrial era. Now we have +1 degree. That's already happened. That's a different CLIMATE! We're heading towards 1.5 or 2 degrees very soon. THAT will be a different climate. Indeed, every 10th of a degree is a different climate in some respects. So it makes NO SENSE to say "we will always have the climate for that..." because in different climates, we get different amounts of crops.

And in the very climate of Genesis we have different things happening and a failure of crops! Bottom line? What fraction of our crops do YOU think breaks the promise for "seedtime and harvests"? 1%? 5%? 20%? Or 50% failure worldwide one year?

SEED TIME UTTERLY FAILED for 7 years across the ancient world. That's 100% failure across the bible lands for 7 years! Not 25%. Not 50%. 100%! The emphasis in the Noah story is that God will never UNCREATE the world again like he did in Noah - never make all flesh perish off the earth. That somewhere, somehow, someone will be growing food. Life will continue. God's promise is that nothing as extreme as the flood story will happen again but it OBVIOUSLY does not mean severe famines cannot happen as they happen in the same book!

Indeed, some of the worst scenarios for climate science by 2050 don't come close to Joseph's famine. I've seen figures like crops could be down 25% as the world hits 10 billion people by 2050. That would be BAD - and most probably cause severe wars! But it wouldn't beat Joseph's famine.

You have no rational reason to reject climate science given how bad the famine in Genesis was. You also have no rational reason to think Genesis 1-11 is a literal text when it is clearly mytho-historical. It dresses up whatever happened theological in metaphors because it does not care about the specifics of WHAT happened, but cares more about WHY it happened.

The Disorder / Order sequence, ancient Cosmology, and Chiastic structure are things.
Go and learn things. It will help.

 

[parousia70]

What loophole? There is no loophole. It very specifically says He will not destroy the earth with a flood again. It does NOT say He would never destroy the earth again in any way.

So this is fake news then?
“I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake"

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So this is fake news then?
“I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake"

Of course not. Are you reading that in context? Apparently not. So, let's look at the context, shall we?

Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

So, the context of that statement you quoted is that He would never curse the ground again "as I have done". As He has done. How did He do it? With a flood. That lines up with this:

Genesis 9:11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

So, the context of Genesis 8:21 can be seen in Genesis 9:11. And then, of course, there is 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which show that God will indeed destroy the earth again, only this time with fire instead of water.

 

[eclipsenow]

So this is fake news then?
“I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake"

It depends how you apply it.
If you claim it as some sort of promise for the crops in your nation, then it's probably being ripped out of context and actually is 'fake news' for your land. This is not some climate-change defeater! While reading this story remember what happened to Joseph's family and how severe that drought was for 7 years. That's 100% failure of crops across most of the ancient bible lands - as far as we can tell.

So whatever the promise God is actually making to Joseph it CANNOT be that harvests will never fail. I think the emphasis Spiritual Jew has put on it is correct. It's that all living flesh will not be destroyed again - and that somewhere pockets of farming will continue - even if other large areas fail.

 

[DavidPT]

Of course not. Are you reading that in context? Apparently not. So, let's look at the context, shall we?

Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

So, the context of that statement you quoted is that He would never curse the ground again "as I have done". As He has done. How did He do it? With a flood. That lines up with this:

Genesis 9:11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

So, the context of Genesis 8:21 can be seen in Genesis 9:11. And then, of course, there is 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which show that God will indeed destroy the earth again, only this time with fire instead of water.

Let me see if I have this straight. If the flood equals cursing the ground, and then God said He would never curse the ground again, but that He then literally burns the ground to the ground in the future, this somehow does not equal cursing the ground if it involves fire, but only equals cursing the ground if it involves water?

 

[eclipsenow]

Let me see if I have this straight. If the flood equals cursing the ground, and then God said He would never curse the ground again, but that He then literally burns the ground to the ground in the future, this somehow does not equal cursing the ground if it involves fire, but only equals cursing the ground if it involves water?

That's why my OP focused on what theologians in my circles make of Genesis 1-11 - so that we can see this is a theological interpretation of a great flood event as 'Uncreation" (resetting the world to the watery chaos of the beginning of creation.) But with God's order being restored in Noah and the ark - rescued on top of the water. The scientific details of how big the flood was, how big the Ark was, what animals were actually in the ark etc all misses the point. This is not scientific literature but a theological polemic against the flood holy texts in the pagan world. It's like the author is marking the earlier Babylonian creation narratives.

In a similar way, we have Peter describing Judgement Day as fire and the elements melting. But is the earth being DESTROYED again - or is this language about the judgement of the ungodly?
Indeed - as an Amil I see the Return of Jesus, Judgement Day, and New Heavens and New Earth all as the one event. In this way, the "Rapture" of Christians being "Caught up in the sky to meet Jesus" is similar language to Noah being saved from the water and judgement below. I'm not sure how literal it is when we are talking about the renovation of the laws of physics themselves! In other words, the judgement language might apply to unbelievers - but does it apply to creation itself given the picture language of a New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to cover the entire dimensions of the then known ancient world? Is the earth being destroyed, or renovated? What will heaven even be like? I've almost abandoned using the word 'heaven' because it is so laden with western gnostic baggage (eg: the floaty cloudy place in the sky.) The physicality of heaven has been lost.

This podcast helps bring some of that back!

Kingdom Come - Undeceptions

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let me see if I have this straight. If the flood equals cursing the ground, and then God said He would never curse the ground again, but that He then literally burns the ground to the ground in the future, this somehow does not equal cursing the ground if it involves fire, but only equals cursing the ground if it involves water?

Did you actually read my whole post? It doesn't seem like it. Please read it again. I explained my view on this already. God said He would never curse the ground again with a flood, not that He would never curse the ground again in any way.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It depends how you apply it.
If you claim it as some sort of promise for the crops in your nation, then it's probably being ripped out of context and actually is 'fake news' for your land. This is not some climate-change defeater! While reading this story remember what happened to Joseph's family and how severe that drought was for 7 years. That's 100% failure of crops across most of the ancient bible lands - as far as we can tell.

So whatever the promise God is actually making to Joseph it CANNOT be that harvests will never fail. I think the emphasis Spiritual Jew has put on it is correct. It's that all living flesh will not be destroyed again - and that somewhere pockets of farming will continue - even if other large areas fail.

What are you referring to exactly that I put an emphasis on? I never said that "all living flesh will not be destroyed again", so I'm not sure why you are (seemingly) thinking I did. But, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.

 

[eclipsenow]

What are you referring to exactly that I put an emphasis on? I never said that "all living flesh will not be destroyed again", so I'm not sure why you are (seemingly) thinking I did. But, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.

Sorry I misquoted from another version I heard recently.
All I was referring to is the way you made certain verses bold.

EG: destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

The way I read this the emphasis is NOT that mankind will have abundant harvests forever - but that God will not "Uncreate" the world again and return it to the image of the world covered by chaotic oceans. Then with seedtime and harvests most definitely failing within Genesis itself - we can see that the emphasis must be a promise against UNCREATION, not a promise for our crops to always be completely successful!

 

[parousia70]

Of course not. Are you reading that in context? Apparently not. So, let's look at the context, shall we?

Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

So, the context of that statement you quoted is that He would never curse the ground again "as I have done". As He has done. How did He do it? With a flood. That lines up with this:

Genesis 9:11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

So, the context of Genesis 8:21 can be seen in Genesis 9:11. And then, of course, there is 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which show that God will indeed destroy the earth again, only this time with fire instead of water.

Yes, let's look at the context.
Peter says that the pre flood world consisted of heaven and earth, and that they were destroyed by water and perished.

We know that the LITERAL substance of neither heaven or earth was destroyed, but it was the evil men that were destroyed, God brought "the flood upon the world of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5). Peter makes a distinction between the heaven and earth of Noah's day which were destroyed, and the heaven and earth that existed then which were to be destroyed by fire. The literal visible fabric of heaven and earth were the same after the flood as they were before the flood.

What was it that really perished in the flood? Look at verse 6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." It was the world that perished, right? Now what does the word "world" mean? It is the orderly arrangement of society, it wasn't the dirt. Now how do you go from an ungodly society that was destroyed to the destruction of the entire universe? The literal earth was not destroyed. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the physical creation will be destroyed.

Notice what God said after the flood of Noah's day in Genesis 8:21.
Genesis 8:21, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

Now, I understand you say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. I understand you believe God's promise here is to just change his method of destroying everything. But this passage is a message of COMFORT that God is giving to Noah. Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is he promising not to destroy the earth again?

I understand you say the former, that God's message of Comfort to Noah is "Be Comforted Noah, for Next time I'm going to burn the whole thing down"

However, This interpretation would be completely foreign to Noah, and therefore cannot be the correct interpretation. It has to mean the same thing to us as it meant to Noah.

God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word.

The earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4). And remember Isaiah 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." If the earth is to be destroyed, then that would be the end of the increase of Christ's government.

Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).
How do you explain away those passages?

In reality, it is to call God a LIAR when one claims God will destroy this present earth in our future and replace it whith a materially different "new" one, because we see above that God promised to NEVER destroy the Literal Earth, and He also promised to "NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND, and NEVER AGAIN Smite every living thing.

Again, When we let scripture interpret itself, we can clearly see that the "elements" that melted with fervent heat of 2 Peter 3, were the "first principles of the oracles of God" of Hebrews 5:12.
They are the same.

When you interpret "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interpret "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth", you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.

Obviously, when rightly divided, the honest Bible expositor can only conclude that this stoicheia that Peter speaks of as "MELTING" in 2 Peter 3, is not about atoms, the periodic table or destruction of the universe, rather this is the elements of religious training, or the ceremonial precepts common to the worship of Jews under the Mosaic Covenant, which indeed DID burn with fervant heat along with the temple in 70AD.