God's Order in the Church vs Man's Order

[Paul Yohannan]

Not in Heaven it doesn't.

Mine does.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Which alleged discipleship is simply tradition amid forgeries, while disciples often deviate from their masters, while that distinction is clearly contradicted by Jerome, in addition to Scripture.

The words of St. Ignatius are relatively more important than those of St. Jerome.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

In addition, the fourth century Roman Catholic scholar Jerome (347-420), confirms,

St. Jerome is neither specifically Roman Catholic (although a Latin Christian, he was under the Patriarch of Jerusalem, and therefore as much Eastern Orthodox as anything), nor is he infallible.

Even with church fathers venerated as a saints, their comments are only acceptable where they agree with the broader consensus of Holy Tradition.

I can even think of a case where the opinion of St. Athanasius, the most definitive and important early Church Father, was rejected (the OT canon).

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Wrong: the words presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer) - which God uses for NT pastors over 60 times do not mean "priest." The word which the Holy Spirit distinctively uses for priests is “hiereus” or “archiereus" (over 280 times total, mainly as the latter) (Heb. 4:15; 10:11) and is never used for NT pastors. An Orthodox historian scholar admits that "the word "priesthood" is itself a corruption of the Greek "presbyter." (John Anthony McGuckin, "The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to its History, Doctrine, and Spiritual Culture) More.

The word priest is a corruption of the word Presbyter.

Presbyter is the formal title of Orthodox and Catholic priests. For example, a senior priest in the Orthodox Church is styled Protopresbyter or Archpresbyter. For example, noted 20th century theologian Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky.

So when we say Priest, we mean Presbyter.

All Christians are Hierii.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Wrong. If taken at face value, then the disciples would be eating the same manifestly incarnated bloody flesh

There have been many instances where the Eucharist has taken on a fleshynappearance, to the point that in the Orthodox church, if this happens, the priest is to send for the bishop.

One Muslim converted to the Orthodox Church after witnessing such an event. He was later martyred and became a saint.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Nor is the Lord's supper ever presented in the life of the church as the essential means of obtaining spiritual life.

This of course is inaccurate as a reading of the Gospel of John would confirm.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Stand together against abortions with Catholics?" Might as well as homosexual marriage to the list. See here by God's grace, or do I need to post some?

The polls you cite are both dubious and irrelevant, since the clear official doctrine of the RCC opposes both abortion and gay marriage. Any pious Catholic (one who actually goes to Church regularly) will more likely than not be opposed to those things.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The only icons in OT in Judaism

On the contrary, the excavated synagogue at Dura Europos contains icons depicting a variety of OT events. This archaeological evidence suggests Judaic iconoclasm is not the ancient practice?

I myself have come to believe that Jewish iconoclasm, like Christian iconoclasm, originated in Islam. It is known that Byzantine politicians adopted iconoclasm in response to the military successes of the Ummayid Caliphate. I believe that the Judaic iconoclasm likewise originated as a reaction to Islam.

This is certainly what the archaeological record indicates.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

You understandably misunderstood what i meant to say, which was that what was not seen in the NT church was choosing (more) apostolic successors as was done for Judas by casting lots (no politics), versus choosing more, and that by voting.

Well, the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria is elected by lottery.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The Catholic Eucharist simply is not manifest in the life of the NT church

On the contrary, the Eucharist of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic churhc is imp,icit in every book in the NT, and explicit in the four Gospels, 1 Corinthians and elsewhere.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The words of St. Ignatius are relatively more important than those of St. Jerome.

The words of Paul and peter and john and most of all Jesus are much more important than all of those after, for we have their words in Holy Sscripture. . We are never to put men above that which is written as many have done. And never to follow any men or words they say contrary to scripture.

And no, I didn't say sola scripture.

 

[LoveofTruth]

On the contrary, the Eucharist of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic churhc is imp,icit in every book in the NT, and explicit in the four Gospels, 1 Corinthians and elsewhere.

No it is not.

Christ in believers as the seed sown and the true Light that eightieth them and the anointing teaches them all things and he is their daily spiritual food as he has been for all the saints of all time.

Even the Old testament saints did eat the same spiritual meat and drink as believers in the New testament do, for all true believers eat of that spiritual Rock, Christ.

Thy word was found and I did eat...

The words that i speak unto you they are spirit and they are life...

The flesh profiteth nothing

being born again by the word of God

the engrafted word that is able to save our souls

 

[Paul Yohannan]

being born again by the word of God

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Indeed so, but a more interesting analysis than mere membership would be compelling.

Then you need to express what it is that you are asking for.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The words of Paul and peter and john and most of all Jesus are much more important than all of those after, for we have their words in Holy Sscripture. . We are never to put men above that which is written as many have done. And never to follow any men or words they say contrary to scripture.

And no, I didn't say sola scripture.

The words of St. Ignatius do not contradict Scripture.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Then you need to express what it is that you are asking for.

I want to see you spend the same energy criticizing liberal Protestants that you spend criticizing Catholics or Orthodox.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.

Yes the word was made flesh. But now as Paul said we don't know Christ after the flesh. Christ dwells in the heart by faith. This seed or word of God is Christ in all true believers. we live by his word.

The word is nigh unto thee in thy heart and in thy mouth and that is the word of faith which we preach. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The seed is the word of God sown in the heart. his is the true Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world. Jesus said while ye have the light believe in the light .

2 Corinthians 5:16
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.

Taking a piece of bread into the stomach is not the same as Christ dwelling in the heart by faith

or His word hid in the heart

 

[LoveofTruth]

2 Corinthians 5:16
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

Having Christ in you is the foundation of the church he is the foundation and in him we must live and walk and by Him we minister and have all gifts in the gatherings. This is the starting place of God's order. But men have tampered with this and been drawn away after others and mans doctrines and traditions that make the wordd of God of no effect.

The word of God also works in all believers if they are free to minister in Christ. Paul said let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another...

Paul commended the elders of Epehsis and said he commended them to God and the word of His grace that is able to build them up

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.

Having Christ in you and the revelation of him, is the foundation of the church he is the foundation and in him we must live and walk and by Him we minister and have all gifts in the gatherings. This is the starting place of God's order. But men have tampered with this and been drawn away after others and exalted Lord type men over the body and man's doctrines and traditions that make the word of God of no effect.

The word of God also works in all believers if they are free to minister in Christ. Paul said let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another...

Paul commended the elders of Epehsis and said he commended them to God and the word of His grace that is able to build them up. Notice he did not commend them to a man or a Pope type character, or any one person over them.