GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

[tall73]

Sorry tall,

Not at all my friend the rest of the post provided to you not only defines the words used for cleanse and the activities of the little horn but provide the overall context of events before and after with application to the correct meaning of the scriptures.

Taking a small section out of a much larger post that shows both context and word meaning and saying the section posted is not showing context is denying the rest of the post provided to you. I suggest you read the whole post which provides tha context that you have left out of your interpretation of the scriptures here.

Your mistake here is you have an misapplication of the scriptures from 2 Chron 29:15 because this is an application to the defilement of the earthly Sanctuary by King Ahez yet the prophecy of Daniel 8 is 2300 years after the establishment of the little Horn. This puts the application of the cleansing to the Heavenly Sanctuary where there has been no defilement only a misunderstanding of God's truth (Word).

The issue is not that it is the heavenly sanctuary.

The issue is that if it is all rectifying the action of the little horn, that is not the Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement is for the sins of the people, not the activity of the little horn.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, the cleansing would be what the questions asks--when the little horn stops its defiling activities, no longer tramples etc.

And that didn't happen in 1844.

You seem to be repeating yourself here. This has already been discussed in detail in the linked posts below that you have yet to respond to.

* Posts # 582 linked Click me
* Posts # 583 linked Click me

You are missing out the context with your application of Daniel 8:13-14. Maybe this is effecting your interpretation. Something to pray about anyways.

DANIEL 8:10-12
[10], And it grew great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
[11], Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[12], And a host was given him to oppose the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it did this, and prospered.

then we read...

[13], Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
[14], And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The application here is to the Heavenly Sanctuary not the earthly. This is the restoring of God's truth and the beginning of the great day of Atonement. You seem to be applying this to the earthly Sanctuary and the cleansing to the little horn when cleansing of the Sanctuary in God's Word is for the atonement and removal of the sins of God's people from the precence of God.

You seem to not be reading the complete posts that already adress your responses. Now sure why.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[tall73]

So let's get honest here. How does your application of the scriptures apply to the heavenly Sanctuary? Is Jesus taking all the furniture out of the heavenly Sanctuary and washing it? This is a different application of cleaning not restoring and has no application to what is being discussed.

Of course it does. It means you cannot just see the word "cleanse" and say it must be the Day of Atonement. That passage said cleanse, and it was not the Day of Atonement.

And Daniel 8 is, as we both acknowledged, all about the activity of the little horn.

The activity of the little horn was to end at the end of the 2,300 evening/mornings.

Your definition of the little horn is the papacy. But nothing changed with it at that time.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You just said it again. Are you really not getting it?

How many years has the papacy been around? Hint, he wasn't around before Jesus' came to earth.

Hmm not sure if you are getting it. Where did the papacy come from?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Of course it does. It means you cannot just see the word "cleanse" and say it must be the Day of Atonement. That passage said cleanse, and it was not the Day of Atonement.

And Daniel 8 is, as we both acknowledged, all about the activity of the little horn.

The activity of the little horn was to end at the end of the 2,300 evening/mornings.

Your definition of the little horn is the papacy. But nothing changed with it at that time.

Sorry tall, that is not true. The application is to the Heavenly Sanctuary not the earthly. This is made clear in the context of Daniel 10-14 which you are not considering in your interpretation of the scriptures. What has changed? God's truth in Sanctuary and the daily have been restored and the cleansing work of the Heavenly has begun as well as the investigative judgment.

Om my friend nice talking to you. I need to go out for a while we can chat more latter if you like bb for now. Hope your day/night is a great one

 

[tall73]

Of course I put the quote up. I also provided the context to what was written around the quote. It was not what you were suggesting it said. It was a view held earlier that for a time as you started but if you read what was posted above she says she still holds the view of the shut door but not as others have applied it to here. Here let me provide it for you...

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

“My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3).

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, “Your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38).

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:

“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7).

Hope this helps.

You mean the same quote I put in post 606.

I already posted her statement on that.

You said that no one loses their salvation over interpretation of prophecy. She clearly said those in 1844 who turned away from their experience did.

 

[tall73]

yet the prophecy of Daniel 8 is 2300 years after the establishment of the little Horn.

Hmm not sure if you are getting it. Where did the papacy come from?

I am not going to try to read your mind where you think the papacy came from. If you are referring to the dragon, then you would have to go back a lot longer than 2,300 years.

But you said the prophecy of Daniel 8 is 2,300 years after the establishment of the little horn.


So you are saying that the little horn was around in 457 BC? That would be quite odd.

 

[tall73]

Sorry tall, that is not true. The application is to the Heavenly Sanctuary not the earthly. This is made clear in the context of Daniel 10-14 which you are not considering in your interpretation of the scriptures. What has changed?

The papacy is still doing the same things it always did. Nothing changed in regard to the little horn.

God's truth in Sanctuary and the daily have been restored and the cleansing work of the Heavenly has begun as well as the investigative judgment.

Nothing of truth happened in 1844. First you had Miller's false message of Jesus' return. Then they believed the shut door.

 

[tall73]

Did Miller get the application and understandting of these scriptures correct? Absolutely not.

Why do you blame Miller? Ellen White does not blame Miller.


I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed.

 

[tall73]

Not sure why you feel the need to disuss the SOP and William Miller and not God's Word.

You seem to shy away from discussing the scriptures on this topic here for some reason.

I think we have discussed all the relevant Scriptures on the topic at considerable length. In fact, anytime we go over things again you say I am repeating. Likely so! And so are you.

But you seem to not want to deal with what Ellen White said about the meaning of Miller, and how it relates to Scripture in her mind.

She thought Miller was preaching a heavenly message. She thought God intended people to be tested by the preaching of definite time in 1843.

And she considered that the message of definite time in 1983 was the fulfillment of the first angel's message.

So this is about interpretation of Scripture.

The SDA hold that a false message of Jesus coming to earth in 1843 was a fulfillment, and the beginning of, the first angel's message.

Do you agree with Ellen White on that point?

She condemned those who rejected Miller's message. But they rejected it because of the preaching of definite time.

She said God tested them--on what? Whether they would ignore Jesus' words about coming at an hour when we know not?

And then even after the event stated did not come to pass--Jesus' return to earth in 1843--she still condemned those who rejected that message.

Even though it is clear that if a prophet says something will happen and it does not, then the person was not really a prophet.

 

[tall73]

Hello tall, as requested earlier you have your own thread for you misapplication of the SOP. This is between you and God. I wish to discuss scripture here and happy to do so. I am not interested in discussing the SOP. Did you have any scripture to share for your teachings? Seems you have run out.

As I said, I think we went over all the Scriptures at length. So if you will not discuss the other, even though I think it has a direct bearing on Adventist's take on Scripture, that is fine. Since you started the thread and do not think it is germane we can wrap up our discussion.

God bless, and thank you for the discussion.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As I said, I think we went over all the Scriptures at length. So if you will not discuss the other, even though I think it has a direct bearing on Adventist's take on Scripture, that is fine. Since you started the thread and do not think it is germane we can wrap up our discussion.

God bless, and thank you for the discussion.

As mentioned earlier if you have scripture to share let's talk scripure. It seems you have run out.

I think what we can agree on however, is that we both believe that there will be a judgment where each one of us will be held accountable towards God for all the things we do on this earth.

Weather this happens before the 2nd coming or afterwards is irrelevant as it is going to happen regardless and this is purely academic.

SIN is the issue in the Judgment.

.......................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

I enjoyed our discussion and hope to see you in God's Kingdom.

May God bless you as you seek him through his word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think we have discussed all the relevant Scriptures on the topic at considerable length. In fact, anytime we go over things again you say I am repeating. Likely so! And so are you.

Hello tall,

Not really, it seems you are simply ignoring many of the posts and scriptures provided to you that disagree with your teaching and move on to other subject matter when your posts do not acheve their objective. (said in all respect)

But you seem to not want to deal with what Ellen White said about the meaning of Miller, and how it relates to Scripture in her mind.

Once again what you post and the interpretation that you put on most of your quotes from the SOP has been taken out of context or you have put a context on them that they are not saying. This was demonstrated in posts # 611; post # 612 and the follwing post.
These were but a few of the many quoted you have provided that were taken out of context to say something they were not even saying.

Sorry tall, I started off by checking each of your references carefully, so I could try and understand what you were discussing here. In every case I found your interpretation of the quotes you have provided to be inaccurate or misleading.

You have lost credability with me now unfortunately. I suggest you re-read what I have posted you in the linked posts above and apply your corrections to your other thread. If not it is between you and God I have shown you the context and quote applications previous posts in relation to Leviticus 16 and the linked posts above.

What you do now after your correction is between you and God. IF you believe it is about scripture then talk scripture. If you cannot it seems you have none to support your teaching.

Even though it is clear that if a prophet says something will happen and it does not, then the person was not really a prophet.

Hmm so in your view Jonah was a false prophet ? You may need to study the scriptures further.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why do you blame Miller? Ellen White does not blame Miller.

I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed.

The Lord showed me that He had stretched out His hand the second time to recover the remnant of His people, [see page 86.] and that efforts must be redoubled in this gathering time. In the scattering, Israel was smitten and torn, but now in the gathering time God will heal and bind up His people. In the scattering, efforts made to spread the truth had but little effect, accomplished but little or nothing; but in the gathering, when God has set His hand to gather His people, efforts to spread the truth will have their designed effect. All should be united and zealous in the work. I saw that it was wrong for any to refer to the scattering for examples to govern us now in the gathering; for if God should do no more for us now than He did then, Israel would never be gathered. I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed.

.............

This applies to the chart used during the 1843 movement, and has special reference to the calculation of the prophetic periods as it appeared on that chart. The next sentence explains that there was an inaccuracy which in the providence of God was suffered to exist. But this does not preclude the publication of a chart subsequently which would correct the mistake, after the 1843 movement was past, and the calculation as then made had served its purpose.

You seem to have some grievance against the SOP. This is sad for you.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The papacy is still doing the same things it always did. Nothing changed in regard to the little horn.

Not sure why you think it needs to. It is the truth of the Sanctuary that has been restored accoding to the scriptures and the beginning of the Cleansing of the Sanctuary as already shown through the scriptures.

SCRIPTURE Support provided in the linked posts...

* Posts # 582 linked Click me
* Posts # 583 linked Click me

QUOTE="tall73, post: 72771771, member: 125574"]Nothing of truth happened in 1844. First you had Miller's false message of Jesus' return. Then they believed the shut door. [/QUOTE]

Not really tall. Mistakes were made in the application of the scriptures and corrections were also made to recitify the mistakes this is only repitition of what has already been discussed in other posts.

Did you have anything new to share?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am not going to try to read your mind where you think the papacy came from. If you are referring to the dragon, then you would have to go back a lot longer than 2,300 years.

But you said the prophecy of Daniel 8 is 2,300 years after the establishment of the little horn.

So you are saying that the little horn was around in 457 BC? That would be quite odd.

I see, so if you have not been able to identify who the little horn is or where it comes from, how can you make any statement saying who the little horn is and where it comes from?

The little horn comes out of the 4th beast does it not representing both pagen and papal Rome. I am not sayng that the little horn as been around since 457BC at all. This is a reference to the starting point of the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 in Daniel 9:24-27 up untill the life and death of Jesus and continue on. You know the scriptures I am sure.

What was shared with you earlier is that the little horn and it's activities are establsihed before the completion of the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 has been fulfilled. The Roman empires pagan phase followed by it's papal phase matches these descriptions perfectly.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I already posted her statement on that.

You said that no one loses their salvation over interpretation of prophecy. She clearly said those in 1844 who turned away from their experience did.

Sorry tall, no she didn't that was your interpretation of what she said. You have been shown the context of what she said. It was not what you were referring to.

We may have to agree to disagree and remain friends.

I pray I will see you in God's Kingdom

Thanks for sharing.

 

[tall73]

Hmm so in your view Jonah was a false prophet ? You may need to study the scriptures further.

I will address this one point, as it is scriptural.

Even Adventist literature on tests of prophets recognize conditional prophecy.

Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Ninevah repented.

Now compare this to Ellen White condemning those who rightly rejected Miller's false date setting based on the words of Christ and Paul.

 

[tall73]

You have lost credability with me now unfortunately.

The irony.

I lose credibility when I point out Ellen disbelieving Jesus in order to believe Miller's false date setting.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I will address this one point, as it is scriptural. Even Adventist literature on tests of prophets recognize conditional prophecy.

Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Ninevah repented.

Now compare this to Ellen White condemning those who rightly rejected Miller's false date setting based on the words of Christ and Paul.

None of what you have provided earlier about Miller being a false Prophet apply as Miller had no claims to being a Prophet or being sent from God. As shown ealier, the scriptures provided were correct the application was not. The application was corrected and the date for the cleansing of the Sanctuary applied to it's correct application and God's truth restored in fulfillment of Daniel 8:11-14.

Hope this helps.