God's intention?

Reformationist said:

So how did an innocent creation pursue a fleshly desire if that part of them wasn't introduced until they ate of the fruit?

God bless

Click to expand...

Are you saying they were created with a sinful nature?

Hello Travita,

While studying this very subject I ran across this post by another which lays out what I had concluded also after reading Romans7,8, 9 and Corinthians. Adam was made an earthy being, corruptible with vanity in his heart. God knew Adam would sin before He created him, He created Satan, the Adversary [who was a liar and murderer from the beginning John 8:44]. God created calamity/adversity/evil Isa 45:7. The creation was made subject to vanity.Rom 8:20.

God created Adam and had a plan of Redemption completed beforehand. Why? It seems to me that God not only knew Adam would sin but created him subject to vanity of the heart.

Here is a copy of that post that lays out the discussion of image and likeness. I thought you might find it interesting as I did:

Hi all, is mans image and likeness that of Gods?

According to tradition it is, but is this tradition right?
Let’s look at a few thing in the scriptures to see if it is right or wrong.

1Co.15
The above chapter says that the image of man is a corruptible image.
This is totally opposite of what Gods image is said to be, which is uncorruptible.
Yet we hear all the time that we are in the image and likeness of God.

Is Gods image then that of corruptible man?
Yet this is what we have and are being taught.

Paul states that the image that we have is the same image that Adam had.
Was Adam then in Gods image and likeness?
Let’s see.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;

Is this the image and likeness of God?

Yet this image is what we are told is Gods image and likeness.

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Paul tells us the last Adam (Christ) was made a quickening spirit.
There is a difference between the first man Adam and the last Adam.
Which one is Gods image and likeness?

Is tradition right in stating that the first man Adam is in Gods image?

If so then whose image and likeness did Christ bear?

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Is Gods image and likeness that of the natural which was first?

Yet that is what tradition teaches us when they state we are in Gods image and likeness.


47 The first man is of the earth, earthy

Is Gods image and likeness of the earth, earthy?

Yet this is what tradition tells us is Gods image and likeness.

: the second man is the Lord from heaven

. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Two different images portrayed here, the earthy, which tradition teaches is Gods image and likeness and the heavenly, which cannot be Gods image and likeness if what tradition teaches is right.

So is the earthy that of Gods image and likeness?

Or is the heavenly?

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy

Paul states that we HAVE borne the image of the earthy which is the image of the first man Adam, which is of a natural image.

Is this the image and likeness of God?

Yet this is what tradition teaches us Gods image and likeness are.

, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Paul goes on to say even though we HAVE borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly.

If the image and likeness of God is that of man, what image is it that we shall bear?

Why does Gods image and likeness need to be changed?

And if Gods image and likeness needs to be change, changed into what?

So then, this is what tradition teaches us that Gods image and likeness is, if man is in Gods image and likeness.

God’s image is corruptible.

God’s image is dishonorable.

God’s image is weak.

God image is of a natural body.

For all these things above are spoken of man, and tradition states we are in Gods image and likeness.

I really cannot believe God people still believe that man is in the image and likeness of God in light of what Paul says here.

Gen.1:26-30 is a prophesy of what we will be in Christ, it has absolutely nothing to do with the first man Adam, save for what he will be in the restitution of all things.....

Click to expand...

Picking up on that last Genesis remark, I would also like to point out that I got a completely different sense of Genesis when I read a translation in the Concordant literal. You get more of a sense that the creation is a process that is ongoing even today. Gen 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them. 28And blessing them is the Elohim. And saying.......
Gen 2:2 And finishing is the Elohim, on the sixth day, His work which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from all His work which He does.
Gen 2:3 And blessing is the Elohim the seventh day, and hallowing it, for in it He ceases from all His work, which the Elohim creates to make.......

Another interesting thing I noted, though might not be of any consequence is the repetition of the following phrases
-"And coming is it to be so"
-"And seeing is the Elohim that it is good."
They are repeated for every creation except for the creation of man. I found that very curious.

Paul initially gave me the idea that creation was an ongoing process. In Romans 8 he talks about the "premonition of creation". What does that mean?

Rom 8:18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.
Rom 8:19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
Rom 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Rom 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."

When I read the above verses in conjunction it with 1Cor15, it seemed that all this biblical discussion of plant life cycles became clearer to me. Creation is an ongoing process!
God created Adam as a bare seed which must die in order to sprout forth growth in new life of becoming an image and likeness of God. Through Christ we start that process which is completed in the rebirth of ourselves from corruptible into the incorruptible.
Adam had to die first spiritually so God gave him an adversary to help him along. in the process. Once Adam sinned, God allowed Adam's mortality to take over because flesh cannot enter the kingdom. Adam was created an earthy physical mortal being. I believe that his mortality was suspended while in the garden pending Adam's decision to eat from the tree of life or good and evil. Once Adam's vanity led him to choose to eat the forbidden fruit, he became aware of his nature and paid the consequence of sin death. His mortality was unsuspended as he was kicked out of the garden and he died spiritually as he succumbed to his vane nature.

There is so much more in the details that I am currently studying which seem to support. For instance, the term nephesh needs further study. Gen 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.[nephesh]

It seems that being a scholar of the original language would be helpful

I hope that wasn't too lengthy. It does seem a bit much.
Please let me know your thoughts

be blessed
spade

Reformationist said:

Not at all. You said, "The flesh is that part of us that seeks after itself, the self, not God. You also intimated that Adam and Eve were "innocent" before they ate of the fruit. It appears, based on the context of your statement, that you see "innocent" as not having "that part of us that seeks after itself, the self, not God." If that is an accurate assessment about what you said, how do explain their choice to "seek after themselves rather than God" if their nature does not include "that part of us that seeks after itself, the self, not God?"

God bless

Click to expand...

I don't know, Ref. Can you explain it to me?

Can you answer me these questions?

What is that part of us that has to die?

Why does it have to die?

What is the sin nature and where is it?

btw... I'm not so proud that I think I know it all... I'm willing to learn.




Spade48d..

I'll get back to you on your post. It looks good with lots of food for thought.

Hi Spade,

First off, let me say you have some greats thoughts going on below.

The quote you gave didn't show up in here and it's a bit long so I'll just say a little something on it.

God did say He created man in His image...

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

This is the Hebrew word for image...
H6754
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

I find the words to shade, phantom, illusion and resemblance very interesting.

And this is the word for likeness...
H1823
דּמוּת
demûth
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

There are those words, similitude and resemblance.

So we can see that man was created 'good', and in God's image. Therefore when Adam and Eve fell that image became corrupted, it became fleshly, of the earth, sensuous, and it definitely had something to do with that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God is in the business of 'restoring' His image within man.

Spade48d said:

While studying this very subject I ran across this post by another which lays out what I had concluded also after reading Romans7,8, 9 and Corinthians. Adam was made an earthy being, corruptible with vanity in his heart.

Click to expand...

I can't agree with that part, because of the above verses. God created everything good, not perfect, but good, and I don't think being made in the image of God is being made corrupt with vanity in the heart.

God knew Adam would sin before He created him, He created Satan, the Adversary [who was a liar and murderer from the beginning John 8:44]. God created calamity/adversity/evil Isa 45:7. The creation was made subject to vanity.Rom 8:20.

Click to expand...

I agree with this. I believe God created evil for a purpose. And I believe He meant for Adam and Eve to fall, as I believe the only way man could partake of the Divine nature was by his fall and subsequent redemption etc.

The creation was made subject to vanity after the fall.

Picking up on that last Genesis remark, I would also like to point out that I got a completely different sense of Genesis when I read a translation in the Concordant literal. You get more of a sense that the creation is a process that is ongoing even today. Gen 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them. 28And blessing them is the Elohim. And saying.......
Gen 2:2 And finishing is the Elohim, on the sixth day, His work which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from all His work which He does.
Gen 2:3 And blessing is the Elohim the seventh day, and hallowing it, for in it He ceases from all His work, which the Elohim creates to make.......

Click to expand...

I believe that God created and rested from His work on the seventh day, and that He put into motion reproduction which is a type of ongoing creation. He also put other things into motion too.. I'm not scientifically minded, but we know the universe is expanding and sin snowballs, etc.. there is always motion that moves forward.

Rom 8:18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.
Rom 8:19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
Rom 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Rom 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."

Click to expand...

It appears to me that in the ongoing motion of all things that it will come to a head one day. I see much more in that scripture you've quoted concerning the sons of God, and that would take another thread.

When I read the above verses in conjunction it with 1Cor15, it seemed that all this biblical discussion of plant life cycles became clearer to me. Creation is an ongoing process!

Click to expand...

Amen.

God created Adam as a bare seed which must die in order to sprout forth growth in new life of becoming an image and likeness of God. Through Christ we start that process which is completed in the rebirth of ourselves from corruptible into the incorruptible.

Click to expand...

Again, we were made in the image of God, it has been corrupted but will be restored as to the 'beginning'.

Adam was created an earthy physical mortal being.

Click to expand...

Some people think that Adam was immortal at that stage and when he fell he lost his immortality. If he had continued to eat of the Tree of Life and not touched the other tree, he would have lived forever.

I believe that his mortality was suspended while in the garden pending Adam's decision to eat from the tree of life or good and evil. Once Adam's vanity led him to choose to eat the forbidden fruit, he became aware of his nature and paid the consequence of sin death. His mortality was unsuspended as he was kicked out of the garden and he died spiritually as he succumbed to his vane nature.

Click to expand...

I don't think Adam had a vain nature before the Fall. If he did can you show me in scripture?

There is so much more in the details that I am currently studying which seem to support. For instance, the term nephesh needs further study. Gen 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.[nephesh]

It seems that being a scholar of the original language would be helpful

Click to expand...

Yes, the Hebrew language is the most fascinating of all the languages I think. The ancient Hebrew language was very pictorial like most languages of that time.

Have you seen this site?...

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

Be blessed too,

Tavs

Reformationist said:

Unfortunately, I cannot, nor have I ever met any theologian that could do a credible job of explaining it.

Click to expand...

I guess that would have to be one of the first questions I ask the Lord when I see Him face to face.

Tavita said:

Hi Spade,

First off, let me say you have some greats thoughts going on below.

The quote you gave didn't show up in here and it's a bit long so I'll just say a little something on it.

God did say He created man in His image...

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

This is the Hebrew word for image...
H6754
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

I find the words to shade, phantom, illusion and resemblance very interesting.

And this is the word for likeness...
H1823
דּמוּת
demûth
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

There are those words, similitude and resemblance.

So we can see that man was created 'good', and in God's image. Therefore when Adam and Eve fell that image became corrupted, it became fleshly, of the earth, sensuous, and it definitely had something to do with that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God is in the business of 'restoring' His image within man.



I can't agree with that part, because of the above verses. God created everything good, not perfect, but good, and I don't think being made in the image of God is being made corrupt with vanity in the heart.



I agree with this. I believe God created evil for a purpose. And I believe He meant for Adam and Eve to fall, as I believe the only way man could partake of the Divine nature was by his fall and subsequent redemption etc.

The creation was made subject to vanity after the fall.



I believe that God created and rested from His work on the seventh day, and that He put into motion reproduction which is a type of ongoing creation. He also put other things into motion too.. I'm not scientifically minded, but we know the universe is expanding and sin snowballs, etc.. there is always motion that moves forward.




It appears to me that in the ongoing motion of all things that it will come to a head one day. I see much more in that scripture you've quoted concerning the sons of God, and that would take another thread.



Amen.



Again, we were made in the image of God, it has been corrupted but will be restored as to the 'beginning'.



Some people think that Adam was immortal at that stage and when he fell he lost his immortality. If he had continued to eat of the Tree of Life and not touched the other tree, he would have lived forever.



I don't think Adam had a vain nature before the Fall. If he did can you show me in scripture?



Yes, the Hebrew language is the most fascinating of all the languages I think. The ancient Hebrew language was very pictorial like most languages of that time.

Have you seen this site?...

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

Be blessed too,

Tavs

Click to expand...

Hello Tavs,

This is the Hebrew word for image...
H6754
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

I find the words to shade, phantom, illusion and resemblance very interesting.

And this is the word for likeness...
H1823
דּמוּת
demûth
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

There are those words, similitude and resemblance.

So we can see that man was created 'good', and in God's image. Therefore when Adam and Eve fell that image became corrupted, it became fleshly, of the earth, sensuous, and it definitely had something to do with that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God is in the business of 'restoring' His image within man.

Click to expand...

I will need to get back to some of this later. Thanks for the image words. I need to reflect more on those. As I said, these Genesis verses are take to be shadows of Christ. If you believe that Genesis 1 is like a summary of the completed works then they must of course be referring to the state of Adam 2 more so than Adam 1. Note that there is not tree of life or knowledge of good and evil and all trees can be freely eaten without restrictions given in Genesis2.

The quote you gave didn't show up in here and it's a bit long so I'll just say a little something on it.

Click to expand...

I would like to point out that the green post contained most of the arguments for the image and likeness being a process underway. Paul seems to make a very strong case for it.

So we can see that man was created 'good', and in God's image. Therefore when Adam and Eve fell that image became corrupted, it became fleshly, of the earth, sensuous, and it definitely had something to do with that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God is in the business of 'restoring' His image within man.

Click to expand...

I don't think there is any disagreement that everything God created was good, even Satan.

Adam was created innocent. However he was certainly not perfect, immortal or incorruptible. If he were all those things he would be like Christ so how could he have sinned?

I can't agree with that part, because of the above verses. God created everything good, not perfect, but good, and I don't think being made in the image of God is being made corrupt with vanity in the heart.

Click to expand...

Well, my contention is that Adam was created with a sin nature but he didn't know it until after he sinned. This correlates precisely with Romans 7. Also from Romans 3:20 we can say that the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents the law.
Rom 7:7 What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."
Rom 7:8 Now Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, produces in me all manner of coveting. For apart from law Sin is dead."
Rom 7:9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died,
Rom 7:10 and it was found that, to me, the precept for life, this is for death."
Rom 7:11 For Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, deludes me, and through it, kills me."

This is precisely what happens to Adam after he sins.

I believe that God created and rested from His work on the seventh day, and that He put into motion reproduction which is a type of ongoing creation. He also put other things into motion too.. I'm not scientifically minded, but we know the universe is expanding and sin snowballs, etc.. there is always motion that moves forward.

Click to expand...

This sounds a lot like Deism. Are you a deist by any chance?

It appears to me that in the ongoing motion of all things that it will come to a head one day. I see much more in that scripture you've quoted concerning the sons of God, and that would take another thread.

Click to expand...

I would welcome that discussion. However I cannot yet open a thread. I believe the premonition of verse 19 ties in with the vanity and His expectation in verse 20. Since the creation was in vanity [that would include Adam as far as I could tell] then sin would be in the heart of all men including Adam.

I don't think Adam had a vain nature before the Fall. If he did can you show me in scripture?

Click to expand...

The best I can do is try to correlate verses. Let me know what you think

1Jo 2:16 for everything that is in the world, the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of living, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

These descriptions of lusts of the flesh and sins of the heart as described in Rom7 line up almost perfectly with Genesis description of Eve's succumbing to temptation.
Gen 3:6 And seeing is the woman that the tree is good for food, and that it brings a yearning to the eyes, and is to be coveted as the tree to make one intelligent. And taking is she of its fruit and is eating, and she is giving, moreover, to her husband with her, and they are eating."
Gen 3:7 And unclosing are their eyes, they two, and knowing are they that they are naked. And sewing are they fig leaves and making for themselves girdle skirts."

Once they realized they were naked [sinned], the tree of life was no longer available to them. The tree was guarded so they could not eat of it. This tells us that they indeed were created mortal and would physically die without eating from the tree of life.

I just want to summarize some of the things that tell that maybe the similtude of image and likeness of God really belongs with the second Adam as He was conceived without a sinful nature and not corruptible.
Adam was corruptible - he sinned didn't he so he got corrupted. Please go over 1 cor 15 comparisons in the green post for the rest.

Have you seen this site?...

Click to expand...

Not yet but I plan to thanks a lot for the link.


I have more study to do on this but I believe that the image and likeness thing is probably the end result and not the pre fall Adam.

I was also looking at the Jewish belief that all the souls were created before the earth and they are after memories erased, inserted or breathed into the earth bodies when we a re born. When we die these souls return. An interesting concept and worthy of study. Perhaps they even believed in some form of reincarnation. who knows?

Thanks for all your valuable input. I can see I need to do a lot more study. Let me know if you have any further thoughts or suggestions.

be blessed
spade

Hi Spade,

All I can say at this point is that in your studies remember that Genesis is the book of beginnings.

The first word (reading right-to-left) is be-re-SHIYT. It is from the Hebrew root resh-aleph-shin, meaning "head, start, beginning," with the preposition bet on the front, meaning "in, on, at." So this word could be translated "in beginning" or "at start" or "at the head." The Hebrew name for the Jewish holiday Rosh HaShanah is from this same root, and means "head of the year" or "beginning of the year" -- Ha is the definite article "the" and Shanah is "year."
The second word is ba-RA, meaning create, shape or fashion. It is from the Hebrew word bet-resh-aleph.

The Latin word "genesis" is derived from the Greek "gignesthai" meaning "to be born."

The word "Genesis" in English is from the Greek word Γένεσις, having the meanings of "birth," "creation," "cause," "beginning," "source," and "origin."



It is the beginning of the created material world. The spiritual world had already been created.

Hello Tavs,

Thanks for that additional input on beginnigs. I will add it to my study notes.

Sorry but I had do delete the picture of the wheel of time showing beg man next to end man. [ I don't yet have enough posts argh!]

Click to expand...

The following was lifted from the link you gave.

How many of these cycles, or eras, have existed in the earth and man's past? In the Biblical text there are actually five cycles.

1. Genesis 1:1-2 suggests that something existed prior to Genesis 1:1. [impressive!]
2. The creation of Genesis 1:3 to the fall of man in Genesis 3.
3. From the expulsion of man from the Garden of Eden, to Genesis 6 and the Flood.
4. Genesis 10 with Noah and proceeding to beyond the modern time.
5. The "New Heavens and New Earth" as prophesied by the prophets.

I spent most of today going over the link you provided. [Since you can't see me, just picture me jumping up and down with enthusiasm!] The above picture and subtext is probably one of the most important concepts I have taken away. The circular time vs linear time view. Though it doesn't definitively support me it does explain my feeling of ongoing process rather than only completed actions while reading the CLV version of Genesis.

In my brief visit to their forum, I noted a decidedly singular view of pre fall Adam being immortal, pure and definitely in the image of Elohim. Not totally unexpected but it only pointed out my need to get deeper in study since Paul spoke so clearly to me in an opposite viewpoint.

I see that you have not responded to the questions/comments in my prior post. I, in good humor, assume it is do to tact rather than neglect. I get the impression that I may be on a "wild goose" chase. Nonetheless, I am having fun exploring these issues in my newness of search and bottomless pit of ignorance. Thanks for being so indulgent.

Well, back to the drawing board and study wheel.

be blessed
spade

Spade48d said:

Hello Tavs,

Thanks for that additional input on beginnigs. I will add it to my study notes.



The following was lifted from the link you gave.

How many of these cycles, or eras, have existed in the earth and man's past? In the Biblical text there are actually five cycles.

1. Genesis 1:1-2 suggests that something existed prior to Genesis 1:1. [impressive!]
2. The creation of Genesis 1:3 to the fall of man in Genesis 3.
3. From the expulsion of man from the Garden of Eden, to Genesis 6 and the Flood.
4. Genesis 10 with Noah and proceeding to beyond the modern time.
5. The "New Heavens and New Earth" as prophesied by the prophets.

I spent most of today going over the link you provided. [Since you can't see me, just picture me jumping up and down with enthusiasm!] The above picture and subtext is probably one of the most important concepts I have taken away. The circular time vs linear time view. Though it doesn't definitively support me it does explain my feeling of ongoing process rather than only completed actions while reading the CLV version of Genesis.

In my brief visit to their forum, I noted a decidedly singular view of pre fall Adam being immortal, pure and definitely in the image of Elohim. Not totally unexpected but it only pointed out my need to get deeper in study since Paul spoke so clearly to me in an opposite viewpoint.

I see that you have not responded to the questions/comments in my prior post. I, in good humor, assume it is do to tact rather than neglect. I get the impression that I may be on a "wild goose" chase. Nonetheless, I am having fun exploring these issues in my newness of search and bottomless pit of ignorance. Thanks for being so indulgent.

Well, back to the drawing board and study wheel.

be blessed
spade

Click to expand...

I love your enthusiasm, Spade! I hope to be like you again soon. I seem to go through 'seasons'.